Analyze Structure vs KS Architecture

[Uthanar]

I have someone who wants to be able to identify key features of a building like load bearing walls. They have put forth it as an analyze, though it seems like a good KS Architecture to me. Just wondering how folks here would see it. Thanks for your time.

[Escafarc]

Re: Analyze Structure vs KS Architecture

 

I like Analyze my self for stuff like that.

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: Analyze Structure vs KS Architecture

 

If the character can identify key building features due to background or training, then KS is the way to go. If this is just an innate ability where the character just "feels" it, then Analyze is a better fit.

[Lucius]

Re: Analyze Structure vs KS Architecture

 

Well, you're running the game. Personally, I would give the player the choice, but if he took the more expensive option of Analyze as opposed to a KS, if the opportunity arose to use it I'd try to make it worth the points.

 

edit: Conversely, if you don't see it getting much use or being worth much, steer him to the cheaper KS

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Analyze Palindromedary

[Lucius]

Re: Analyze Structure vs KS Architecture

 

If the character can identify key building features due to background or training' date=' then KS is the way to go. If this is just an innate ability where the character just "feels" it, then Analyze is a better fit.[/quote']

 

For an innate ability, I'd go with a Detect with Discriminatory

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Detect Palindromedary

[Christopher]

Re: Analyze Structure vs KS Architecture

 

Generally Analyze is not availible for Buildings. It's designed to find weaknesses in characters.

The GM could allow it for buildings (in fact that is an example), but since fighting buildings will be unlikely it instead provides a better bonus as complimentary skill. so unless you want to allow high complimentary bonuses, simply using the PS is the better way.

KS: Buildings would only cover things like the History of building, who the important builders were, etc.. but nothing about the weaknesses of buildings.

[Kraven Kor]

Re: Analyze Structure vs KS Architecture

 

Yeah, Analyze is a combat skill.

 

KS: Architecture would be "Oh, that building was made by so and so, he was the first to use honeycomb-like construction..." or "That is a flying buttress, probably from the late 18th Century."

 

The skill you are looking for is Demolitions, I think? With probably KS: Architecture as a definite complimentary skill?

[Teflon Billy]

Re: Analyze Structure vs KS Architecture

 

I would actually go for PS: Architect as a complementary skill.

 

Knowledge of Architecture by itself would do nothing to provide the proper knowledge on how to attack/demolish/ weaken a building.

 

By the time someone gains enough practical knowledge on Architecture of buildings to be able to do that, they easily cross into the level of being professionally knowledgeable enough to be an Architect.

 

TB

[Mister E]

Re: Analyze Structure vs KS Architecture

 

First: Analyze takes time (i.e., Analyze requires significant induction in order to make deductions); whereas KS is more or less instant due to the fact that the character already "knows" much (presumably from past exposure). Having a KS is like having a reference book in your head.

 

Second: Analyze is the most potent Complimentary Skill. It grants a +1 bonus to related Skill Rolls for every 1 point (rather than for every 2 points) by which the character makes its Analyze roll.

 

Third: PS actually allows the character to do things (e.g., architect a building) and be things (an architect). Having a PS is like having a "How To" book in your head.

 

Fourth: Analyze is crunchier than (but conceptually no different from) Science Skill...

 

Analyze "Architectural Style" roll results:

• Exact roll: Deduce whether (or not) the building's architect is better (or worse) at architecting buildings (i.e., at PS: "Architect") than the building-analyzer.
   
  
• Make roll by 1 or 2: Deduce facts (KS: "Professors of Architecture", KS: "Architectural Schools", KS: "Architectural Standards" [e.g., hastily or carefully]) about the origin of the architect & the actual architecture of the building.
   
  
• Make roll by 3 or more: Deduce Distinctive Features ("Architectural Style") about the architecture of the building that grant -1 on Skill vs Skill rolls.
   
  
• Make roll by half or more: Deduce "True Name" (ymmv) of the architect of the building, granting 2 Overall Skill Levels for all relevant rolls.
  

[Sidetrack]

Re: Analyze Structure vs KS Architecture

 

KS Architecture is fairly broad, I'd allow that it lets you know a little about a lot of aspects of the building including aesthetics and history.

 

KS Structural Engineering or KS Building Construction/Demolition would be more apt to zero the character in on what's holding it up or how to bring it down. The character with KS Architecture might be less likely to be fooled by a facade though.

 

Analyze would be another step up the ladder.

[Manic Typist]

Re: Analyze Structure vs KS Architecture

 

I'd say KS: Architecture would offer SOME benefits for the task of bringing down a building. For instance, with KS: Architecture I know about the importance of arches in Roman aqueducts and how the keystone is the essential component. So I could tell my men to go knock out all the keystones, which would certainly weaken the structural integrity of the building.

 

But Structural Engineering would serve me much better, yes.

[Vondy]

Re: Analyze Structure vs KS Architecture

 

Not to go against the grain, but...

 

PS: Demolitions Engineer X-

[Lucius]

Re: Analyze Structure vs KS Architecture

 

Generally Analyze is not availible for Buildings.

 

It's not? Why not?

 

It's designed to find weaknesses in characters.

 

It is?

 

KS: Buildings would only cover things like the History of building, who the important builders were, etc.. but nothing about the weaknesses of buildings.

 

What if it's KS: Weaknesses of Buildings?

 

Yeah' date=' Analyze is a combat skill.[/quote']

 

It is?

 

The skill you are looking for is Demolitions, I think? With probably KS: Architecture as a definite complimentary skill?

 

That may well be the case. Even if the setting lacks explosives, Demolitions will include how to undermine walls or collapse structures or otherwise demolish things. As the name implies.

 

But I need to go look up the Analyze Skill in the rules again. Apparently I missed something.

 

edit: Well. Out of four paragraphs, three are about using it against other characters, and two focus specifically on combat use. Only the last paragraph goes into other possible applications. I'm not sure if this was always the case; I've always had a much broader conception of the purpose and uses of Analyze. Perhaps the heavy empahsis on combat is new with this edition.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary notes that Lucius just rolled for his Analyze: Hero System Rules skill

[Escafarc]

Re: Analyze Structure vs KS Architecture

 

In the HERO system buildings are "characters' they are called Bases and they have stats and they can be attacked so Analyze can be used against them.

[dmjalund]

Re: Analyze Structure vs KS Architecture

 

but what skill would you use to "guess" the most likely place to place e.g. a Laboratory?

[Lucius]

Re: Analyze Structure vs KS Architecture

 

but what skill would you use to "guess" the most likely place to place e.g. a Laboratory?

 

I'd say several skills could do that. Including Analyze.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The post has been brought to you by Palindromedary Laboratories, a division of Palindromedary Enterprises

[Christopher]

Re: Analyze Structure vs KS Architecture

 

I'd say KS: Architecture would offer SOME benefits for the task of bringing down a building. For instance' date=' with KS: Architecture I know about the importance of arches in Roman aqueducts and how the keystone is the essential component.[/quote']

No. He would know that Romans used Arches. Not why they used them. And knowing that they used keystones and where they are and which ones to destory are two differnt kind of shoes (KS and PS).

 

What if it's KS: Weaknesses of Buildings?

"a KS provides theoretical knowledge and a PS practical knowledge of a given subject." 6E1 79

Also see the "Electronics" example on 6E1 80. So you would know who knows about the weaknesses of Buildings - but nothing about how to bring down the house.

Please don't mix those two up.

 

 

Also, bases are not characters. They may be written up on something similar to the character sheet, but they can't act on their own and thus are objects. I'd say PS: Architecture is what you are looking for.

[Manic Typist]

Re: Analyze Structure vs KS Architecture

 

No. He would know that Romans used Arches. Not why they used them. And knowing that they used keystones and where they are and which ones to destory are two differnt kind of shoes (KS and PS).

 

 

...no, he would definitely know why, since that is sort of the HISTORY of architecture right there. He would also know basic fundamental principles of architecture (what a load bearing wall is, for instance). Also, he would easily be able to identify keystones since, well, they are generally rather obvious.

 

None of that, however, guarantees he can take down the structure. But it sure as hell would weaken it.

 

This is exactly the theoretical knowledge you mention in the rest of your post.

[Lucius]

Re: Analyze Structure vs KS Architecture

 

The more I think of it, the more I think Kraven Kor had the right answer: Demolitions.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The demolished palindromedary

[Manic Typist]

Re: Analyze Structure vs KS Architecture

 

Demolitions is the right answer to most any question.

[Mister E]

Re: Analyze Structure vs KS Architecture

 

Also' date=' bases are not characters. They may be written up on something similar to the character sheet, but they can't act on their own and thus are objects. I'd say PS: Architecture is what you are looking for.[/quote']

 

[El Diablo Robótico Defensor, aka "The Devil's Robot Advocate."]

 

Omega Supreme: "I transform into a rocket moon base w/ a super tank that rolls around on train tracks."

 

Metroplex: "I'm a city."

 

Fortress Maximus: "I can rip my head off and throw it on the ground as a show of good faith, peaceful intentions, & solidarity w/ all alien life 'form's."

 

Unicron: "I'm a mythical horse w/ a magical horn that can only be ridden by virgins. Wait, no... that's not me! Sorry, I wander around the universe eating planets like Orson Wells... er, Galactus. Mmmm... planet." /gargle-drool

 

Mister E: "Which came first, the auto-mobility ("trucky-ness") or the autonomy (freedom to be a truck)?"

[薔薇語]

Re: Analyze Structure vs KS Architecture

 

The issue of "PS" vs "KS" has always been troublesome to me because they do trend to have such overlap that they are hardly distinct. Sure, in some cases we can draw easy distinctions. For example, PS: Surgeon vs KS: Surgery / Anatomy. The latter lets you know how things in the body are arranged and work together, but it doesn't automatically allow one to perform surgery. But the former almost require the latter to even be useful, and thus one of the key issues. Can someone perform surgery without the KS skill? Can a "demolitions expert" bring down a building without having the background knowledge of "how things are built?" Imagine for a moment a person with the knowledge of how to lay explosives and arrange for their controlled explosion but didn't have the background knowledge on "where best to lay them" so as to bring down a place in the most efficient and controlled manner? That person, IMO, is the PS only person - the person who lacks the complementary KS skill.

 

Okay, with all that said, people tend to only recognize this one way. We go "he only has a KS, so he can't apply his knowledge effectively" but we never seem to recognize "he only has a PS skill, so he can't apply his application skill effectively."

 

Why do I bring this up? Well, unless we really want to get down in dirty in what a PS and KS skill actually do, then it may be best to let the overlap exist and only concern ourselves with the "that can't do that" issue if we have a specific need to be persnickety in a particular game / setting.

 

La Rose.

[Bloodstone]

Re: Analyze Structure vs KS Architecture

 

I have someone who wants to be able to identify key features of a building like load bearing walls.

 

Need more info.

 

Is there anything else they want to know other than the example of identifying load bearing walls?

 

Because the answer will be quite different if their only concern is where they should or should not punch/blast/explode/whatever....

 

For example, if they are building a brick that wants to do things like yank wires or pipes out of the walls for special attacks or do the comic book stunt of lifting a building without damaging it, well, those are potentially very different skills.

[Christopher]

Re: Analyze Structure vs KS Architecture

 

Demolitions is the right answer to most any question.

"As the size of an explosion increases, the number of social situations it is incapable of solving approaches zero" - Varsuvius, Oder of the Stick

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: Analyze Structure vs KS Architecture

 

The issue of "PS" vs "KS" has always been troublesome to me because they do trend to have such overlap that they are hardly distinct. Sure, in some cases we can draw easy distinctions. For example, PS: Surgeon vs KS: Surgery / Anatomy. The latter lets you know how things in the body are arranged and work together, but it doesn't automatically allow one to perform surgery. But the former almost require the latter to even be useful, and thus one of the key issues. Can someone perform surgery without the KS skill? Can a "demolitions expert" bring down a building without having the background knowledge of "how things are built?" Imagine for a moment a person with the knowledge of how to lay explosives and arrange for their controlled explosion but didn't have the background knowledge on "where best to lay them" so as to bring down a place in the most efficient and controlled manner? That person, IMO, is the PS only person - the person who lacks the complementary KS skill.

 

Okay, with all that said, people tend to only recognize this one way. We go "he only has a KS, so he can't apply his knowledge effectively" but we never seem to recognize "he only has a PS skill, so he can't apply his application skill effectively."

 

Why do I bring this up? Well, unless we really want to get down in dirty in what a PS and KS skill actually do, then it may be best to let the overlap exist and only concern ourselves with the "that can't do that" issue if we have a specific need to be persnickety in a particular game / setting.

 

La Rose.

 

An excellent point. Meanwhile SS allow you the benefits of both at the same cost. In my games I am pretty liberal about what you can do with a skill, mostly to encourage players to buy skills and not get hung up on what kind of skill it is. I might assign a greater or lesser penalty/bonus to a skill roll depending on what flavor of skill it is, but from a gaming standpoint things work better if you encourage players to use those little background skills.