Elves

[Michael Hopcroft]

I sometimes wonder what sort of martial arts-like abilities elves should have in a fantasy campaign. Should elves know kyujutsu, or should they have another martial art for bows? Are their warriors skilled unarmed fighters, or do they rely on elegantly-crafted swords and staves?

 

The big question, of course, is whether a 500-year-old elf should be built on the same point base as a 18-year-old human fighter?

[Mutant for Hire]

Something that most games don't address is skills growing rusty with a lack of practice. Consider your average special forces type. These people are the pinnacle of skill in terms of combat, but the reason they keep that skill is because they're constantly in training. Think about any skills that you haven't used in years, or even over a decade. Do you think you'd be as good at it now as you were when you stopped?

 

To some extent, I would say that any skill that isn't used recently degrades in time down to a familiarity. They might reaquire the skill more quickly than someone who never learned it, but still, any skills they haven't used in say, a century or so have probably gotten a little on the rusty side.

 

So an elf has probably done a lot of things in five hundred years, but unless they've got inhumanly perfect magical memories (which may be possible) they have also forgotten a lot or allowed a lot of skills to go rusty over the centuries as well. Only those skills in recent use should be of high level.

 

As for what sort of fighting style your elves would use, that depends a lot on what sort of elves you're using.

[Syberdwarf2]

Originally posted by Mutant for Hire

Something that most games don't address is skills growing rusty with a lack of practice. Consider your average special forces type. These people are the pinnacle of skill in terms of combat, but the reason they keep that skill is because they're constantly in training. Think about any skills that you haven't used in years, or even over a decade. Do you think you'd be as good at it now as you were when you stopped?

 

To some extent, I would say that any skill that isn't used recently degrades in time down to a familiarity. They might reaquire the skill more quickly than someone who never learned it, but still, any skills they haven't used in say, a century or so have probably gotten a little on the rusty side.

 

So an elf has probably done a lot of things in five hundred years, but unless they've got inhumanly perfect magical memories (which may be possible) they have also forgotten a lot or allowed a lot of skills to go rusty over the centuries as well. Only those skills in recent use should be of high level.

 

As for what sort of fighting style your elves would use, that depends a lot on what sort of elves you're using.

 

Assuming that you're using something other than a Drow/Dark Elf, I think something based on Aikido or Jujitsu would be appropriate. Aikido in particular (PLEASE correct me if I'm wrong) focuses on using your opponent against himself, taking into account the tendency for an attacker to not think before acting. Since elves have a tendency (at least in most popular fiction) to think before acting, this seems very appropos IMHO.

[Black Rose]

Off the top of my head

 

For the "far older and wiser than thou, o smelly human" grey elves, I'd go with something like kyujutsu, with some minor tweaks.

 

For the "we are one with the forest, in a way you can't understand, o smelly human" wood elves, I'd use a combination of ninjutsu and an ch'i, for a mysterious forest-dwelling weirdness.

 

For the generic high elves, I'd use a handful of CSLs with bow, and maybe some fencing, or possibly kenjutsu, though I'd lean toward more of a wushu look, myself.

 

Black Rose

[Mutant for Hire]

My main question was whether these were Tolkien-style elves, who are physically superior in every aspect to human beings, or whether they tended to be more classical RPG elves, who were more agile but weaker than humans, and perhaps less robust.

 

In general if they are on average weaker than other races but more agile, their fighting style is going to show it. Stamina is also an important issue. Can these elves keep up with the younger races such as orcs and humans and dwarves? That pretty much determines the 'quick kill' versus the 'wear your opponents down' sort of affair.

 

Also their fighting style to some extent will depend heavily on armor, weapons and environment. Armor and weapons incidentally will be a reflection of their resources/skills in combination with their physical peculiarities and their environment. They're going to invent the lightest plate mail they can possibly make, which allows them the greatest freedom of movement possible.

 

And then there are cultural imperatives. If you're members of a long lived but slowly reproducing rate, your fighting style is likely to be highly defensive and with a strong emphasis on ranged attacks, especially by magic, which you can take the time to learn over the centuries. Most elves that have any sort of aptitude for magic I think would be inclined to learn it.

 

Also the typical reasons that most professional warriors prefered polearms for swords in battle would hold doubly true for the elves. The elves would prefer spears and other weapons that let them strike at range and keep them out of grappling distance with physically stronger races. Close up melee weapons would be the weapons of last resort for these people.

 

For their unarmed fighting style, I tend to think throws and strikes at nerve centers which don't require as much strength but a lot of agility and knowledge of anatomy would apply. Elves could take the time to learn the weak points of every other creature around.

 

For contrast dwarves who are short but sturdy and strong and generally conceived of having hardy constitutions are going to be miniature tanks and favor close up fighting. Axes, picks and hammers that really let them get their strength in. Their unarmed combat style would favor getting a grip on their opponent and then doing as much damage as possible, where the opponent's agility doesn't help as much as a straight strength versus strength contest.

[DarkGreen]

In our campaign you can't get martial arts without special permission. I don't think we ever considered that maybe we should let elves have it.

 

In practicality STR is just so darn efficient that even with a lower racial max all the Elven characters seem to have high strengths. Even at 2 pts per STR it's worth reaching for an 18, it affects too many things.

 

As for the martial arts, don't forget that martial DCs stack on top of weapon DCs and aren't subject to the "max effect is double base" rule. I've built reference characters with martial arts and PSLs on 100 pts who can do 4d6K or more, 3 times a round at a 10 OCV while still having a 6DCV and being able to call the head with no penalty. I would never PLAY such a character, of course, but it was an illustration to my co-GM as to why we needed certain guidelines and house rules regarding levels and Martial Arts.

 

-DG

[Spyritwind]

Even though you are looking for feed back always remember you can do what ever you want to do. Elves have been around a long time and are generaly vary cultured. There is no logical reason why many different forms of martial arts have not been developed by them. I think there have been some good suggestions.

 

Since elves tend to be graceful and agile I'd say arts that look graceful. I could understand them using soft arts if they are the smaller D&D sort of elves. You could focus on internal arts to emphasize the magical side of martial arts. MA's using a long sword and bow make sense to me as well as fencing and I also agree very much with the forest ninja aproach. Even though it may be a little corny I like the Cricket Ninjitsu for wood elves. Some thing about war dancers, or blade dancers some to mind as well. There could easily be half a dozen MA's that are popular in elven culture for a campaign.

 

I was in a FH campaign briefly and played an elven ranger with a elven axe fighting martial art. Sure, it wasn't sterio typical, but I figured axes and woodsmen go together. I can't remember the name a gave it, but it meant some thing like "swift cut around" in Tolkien elven, or some thing like that.

[tiger]

I've seen a Elven Archer Martial Arts.

 

I'd work up or copy a Martial Art that fits a race of not strong but agile race. Nothing I've read would lead one to believe Elves are any better in HTH than any other race.

 

But, they are known for the agility and "weaker" frames. So anything that uses the opponents movements against them would be a good fit.

[Old Man]

I could easily see a mix of aikido and tai chi. After studying for hundreds or thousands of years I think each city or nation of Elves would develop their own martial arts system taking what they saw as the best bits and combining them. That form would be the art they used and practiced instead of each nation teaching a large number of different styles. Individuals might specialize in one aspect or another but the base would be the same.

[ThousandFaces]

Elven Martial Arts

 

In many instances I have seen an elven martial art that has a very Shaolin feel. It focuses on the bo (quarter) staff and has some special maneuvers that relate to polevaulting etc. For a nice look at it and an idea of how to work it into the Hero 5th Rules you might want to take a look at GURPS martial arts in the fantasy martial arts section for elven warlord or something like that. That martial arts book along with the Ultimate Martial Artist are good, no take that back, great resources for martial arts.

[Old Man]

I can't say I like the idea of elven martial arts. Nowhere in the literature can I remember an instance where elves are taught a specific style of fighting. Instead they're just supposed to be wicked fast and accurate, rather than assuming a Wing Chun stance.

 

One way it might work is if there are different styles of elf-jitsu taught to different tribes or specialist subgroups of elves. That might be cool, especially if the subgroups in question are obligated to kill each other on sight. But most of the time, people talking about elven martial arts intend to give it to every elven fighter you see, and that's just icky.

[Mutant for Hire]

Originally posted by Old Man

I can't say I like the idea of elven martial arts. Nowhere in the literature can I remember an instance where elves are taught a specific style of fighting. Instead they're just supposed to be wicked fast and accurate, rather than assuming a Wing Chun stance.

 

First, the elves of RPGs are nowhere near the elves of literature if we're really going to get picky here. The elves of RPGs are a creative variation on Tolkiens' elves, and Tolkien himself was a linguist and a scholar of European languages, not European martial arts.

 

Nowhere in western literature is it written of human martial arts either, with the exception of a few surviving feltenbuchen. And yet there are strong indications from those books that Europeans practiced comprehensive systems of martial arts back in the middle ages.

 

Something to remember is that the 'unskilled fighting off of brute force and raw talent' doesn't cut it in a bloody violent world as you tended to find in those times. The warriors who survived fights learned what worked and what didn't and when they trained their sons in how to fight, they passed on what they knew. And the ones who survived those battles learned even more and passed it on to their kids.

 

The elves having long life spans would naturally be inclined to study martial arts and as they are typically portrayed as intellectual would take a very scholastic view of fighting. Likely as not there would be scrolls and books on the value of stances and proper technique against various opponents, like the human feltenbuchen of historical Europe.

 

One way it might work is if there are different styles of elf-jitsu taught to different tribes or specialist subgroups of elves. That might be cool, especially if the subgroups in question are obligated to kill each other on sight. But most of the time, people talking about elven martial arts intend to give it to every elven fighter you see, and that's just icky.

 

There might be multiple schools, especially if elven martial scholars have different theories on combat. There will most certainly be differences based on climate and environment. Elves living in hot regions where heavy metal armor would lead to heatstroke will develop a different fighting style than in more temperate regions where one can wear such things. Elves living in woodland areas will have a different style than elves living out in flat plains or in moutanous regions.

[Old Man]

I wasn't really thinking "Elven martial arts" per se. More like "this is what they teach to the majority of Elven warriors".

[Markdoc]

>>>> Something to remember is that the 'unskilled fighting off of brute force and raw talent' doesn't cut it in a bloody violent world as you tended to find in those times. The warriors who survived fights learned what worked and what didn't and when they trained their sons in how to fight, they passed on what they knew. And the ones who survived those battles learned even more and passed it on to their kids.<<<<<

 

Actually there isn't the faintest evidence of any tradition of passing on acquired knowledge in most of European medieval history - the renaissance-era feltenbucher being the beginnings of the tradition. The fact that feltenbucher mix practical advice with fanciful technquies guaranteed to get you killed on battlefield, suggests that they are a mixture of experience, gossip and made-up "special techniques" designed to sell book...

 

Certainly famous medieval warriors like John Marshall appear to have picked up their skills "on the job" so to speak. When Marshall retired, laden with gold and accolades, he wrote no books, took no pupils and gave no lessons. Instead, he did what retired knights were suposed to do: he took up farming and his family faded into genteel obscurity.

 

So literacy and combat do not automatically generate martial arts traditions.

 

Certainly, in my game world, elf lords learn no martial arts, leaving such sweaty, undignified pursuits for the "lesser races" - preferring instead to use magic to peel the skin and muscles off anyone silly enough to try to hit them.

 

cheers, Mark

[Vondy]

Well, every culture that has encountered war has developed some sort of systemized combat art.

 

Real world humanity has a plethora of them.

 

There's no reason non-human cultures in fantasy worlds wouldn't have one.

 

Traditional elven concepts would include Bow Mastery and "Sword Singing", but they could have unarmed styles as well.

 

And there's nothing to say they would have to rely on internal or soft styles (though that fits the common conception of elves).

 

In my game there a civilized elves (tolkienesque), but there are also nomadic tribes of elves with a radically different culture (more akin to bedouins or gypsys). Those elves have developed a brutal form of kick boxing similar to muay thai...

 

Just make sure the humans get martial arts too.

[Enforcer84]

to take the "D&D" model further, Elves might not necessarily develop martial arts as they tend towatds chaotic alignments and "monks" are lawful it would stand to reason though that Dwarves might have a regimented unarmed combat technique, it would probably be like commando training, relying on results rather than methods.

 

But I think just about any race with a history of combat might have its Martial Arts Masters.

[GradonSilverton]

If one would like a Fae martial art, I imagine a bastardized version of Ninjutsu and Kyujutsu. One incorporating the legendary ranged abilities of the fae, the other allowing for the relation of the Fae and nature (ie their ability to pass through the woods secretly, ect.).

 

Might be off here but this is what I see.

[Michael Hopcroft]

How do you model such special attack abilities as firing two arrows simultaneously at the same target or using an arrow as a meele weapon?

[Syberdwarf2]

Originally posted by Michael Hopcroft

How do you model such special attack abilities as firing two arrows simultaneously at the same target or using an arrow as a meele weapon?

 

Two arrows simultaneously; Autofire (2 shots)

Arrow as melee weapon; HKA or Martial Maneuver w/Weapon Element

[GradonSilverton]

Originally posted by Michael Hopcroft

How do you model such special attack abilities as firing two arrows simultaneously at the same target or using an arrow as a meele weapon?

 

There's a combat maneuver in Fantasy Hero called "Prep Fire"

 

That allows the user to fire 2 arrows at a 1/2 phase each...

 

I use it alot with a character....

 

He has fast draw and holds on arrow ready (from previous phase)....

 

Fast draws a second arrow (0 Phase)..and fire the 2 off....

[Lucius]

Art of Elf Defense

 

All my gaming stuff is in storage so I can't post details, cut I worked up two seperate martial arts for Elves.

 

One was Sidhe Sword Mastery (sorry, couldn't think up a cooler name than that) and included both the 1/2 STR element on many manuevers, and the +5 STR element. This is technically illegal, but I A) created the art before I noticed that rule and assume it should not be a major problem because the different STR modifiers apply to different aspects.

 

The bonus STR is for the purpose of meeting a STR min for a sword - This is how Elves (I was using the "slightly less tall and strong than Humans" model) were able to use the Elven Long Sword (equivalent to a Human Broad Sword, STR min. 12)

 

The STR penalty is for the purpose of determining extra damage. In other words, an Elf with STR 10 using a dagger of STR min 5 can't add any damage because his STR is only 7 for that purpose.

 

Among other things, this is meant to curb the tendency for Elven sword users to buy up STR, since it is neither necessary (to use bigger swords) nor helpful (to do damage with smaller swords), or at least, not necessary nor helpful to them as swordsmen. It also reflects what I see as an Elven tendency to rely on balance and a sure grip on the sword rather than brute STR.

 

I may eventually create a ranged art for the Elven Bow, since that seems in character for Elves as I see them.

 

 

The other one I created was a "sport based" art that I have given different names to, but am currently calling by the simple straightforward name "Circle and Stick." It is a one on one competition in which one person stands inside a circle (one hex in game terms) and another, armed with a staff, tries to knock his opponent out - out of the circle or out cold. The rounds last 12 seconds (usually, a watching crowd counts it out..."one....two...three...") The unique twist there is that it is a combined armed and unarmed art - some manuevers have the default of staff, and others (like the dodge) have the default of unarmed, because some are the moves used inside the circle, and some are the moves used outside the circle. A 1 pt wpn element allows the use of all manuevers in either case.

 

Another version of the same game is played by Trolls. The rules are the same - but the styles are completely different. To an Elf, the point for the person in the circle is to avoid being hit. To a Troll, the point for the person in the circle is to take the blows without falling - out of the circle, or unconscious, or both. Each race claims to have invented the game and accuses the other of missing the point.....

 

Lucius Alexander

 

(-: :-)

[MisterVimes]

Here's a good one:

 

Cost	Martial Arts Maneuver
	Elven Martial Arts
4	1) Hide under something heavy: 1/2 Phase, +0 OCV, +0 DCV, +15 STR to resist Shove; Block, Abort
5	2) Run away like a sissy: 1/2 Phase, -- OCV, +4 DCV, Dodge All Attacks, Abort; FMove
4	3) Scream like a girl: 1/2 Phase, -1 OCV, -1 DCV, Flash 4d6
4	4) Sneak away before I faint: 1/2 Phase, +0 OCV, +0 DCV, +15 STR vs. Grabs

Martial Arts Cost: 17

 

(Note: This is a Joke... I know how easily offended Elf Fanciers get)

 

Love and Kisses, the Mystic Order of Humans

[Syberdwarf2]

Originally posted by MisterVimes

Here's a good one:

 

Cost	Martial Arts Maneuver
	Elven Martial Arts
4	1) Hide under something heavy: 1/2 Phase, +0 OCV, +0 DCV, +15 STR to resist Shove; Block, Abort
5	2) Run away like a sissy: 1/2 Phase, -- OCV, +4 DCV, Dodge All Attacks, Abort; FMove
4	3) Scream like a girl: 1/2 Phase, -1 OCV, -1 DCV, Flash 4d6
4	4) Sneak away before I faint: 1/2 Phase, +0 OCV, +0 DCV, +15 STR vs. Grabs

Martial Arts Cost: 17

 

(Note: This is a Joke... I know how easily offended Elf Fanciers get)

 

Love and Kisses, the Mystic Order of Humans

 

That was a joke? Actually sounds right on the money to me...

[MisterVimes]

Originally posted by Syberdwarf2

That was a joke? Actually sounds right on the money to me...

 

Shhhh. Don't TELL'EM, you KNOW elves aren't very smart.

[GradonSilverton]

Originally posted by MisterVimes

Here's a good one:

 

Cost	Martial Arts Maneuver
	Elven Martial Arts
4	1) Hide under something heavy: 1/2 Phase, +0 OCV, +0 DCV, +15 STR to resist Shove; Block, Abort
5	2) Run away like a sissy: 1/2 Phase, -- OCV, +4 DCV, Dodge All Attacks, Abort; FMove
4	3) Scream like a girl: 1/2 Phase, -1 OCV, -1 DCV, Flash 4d6
4	4) Sneak away before I faint: 1/2 Phase, +0 OCV, +0 DCV, +15 STR vs. Grabs

Martial Arts Cost: 17

 

(Note: This is a Joke... I know how easily offended Elf Fanciers get)

 

Love and Kisses, the Mystic Order of Humans

 

You know, I was searcing for a good follow up comment ....

 

I've got nothing! not a damnded thing!

 

Good work!