Miracles vs Magic: The Faith Reserve

[Barwickian]

Here's an idea I've been toying with for a while. It's inspired by HarnMaster's Piety Points, which power divine magic in that system.

 

It's a way of trying to differentiate arcane magic and divine magic (miracles) in high fantasy games. The idea of siimply replacing a Magic skill roll with a Faith roll and applying an "only in the god's service" limitation doesn't make divine magic distinct enough for my tastes.

 

The basic idea is to use an Endurance Reserve to fuel divine spells. The reserve can only be recharged while performing religious duties.

 

So you build your reserve with a low level of recovery, apply the Slow Recovery limitation at a level to suit, and the Limited Recovery (only while praying or performing religious obligations, -1).

 

So, say we have a priest with a reserve of 40 END (10 points) and REC of 3 (2 points). We apply Slow Recovery at 20 minutes (-3) and Limited Recovery (only while praying or performing religious obligations, -1). Cost of the reserve is 12/5 = 2 points.

 

Our priest can cast miracles (which must be fueled by the reserve, and retain the Only in the god's interests limitation), but the reserve will be reduced and can only be recharged by praying, performing a religious obligation, holy quest or the like, at a rate of 3 REC every 20 minutes.

 

This should ensure that priest characters who perform miracles actually devote some time in prayer, thanking their deity for the power. And priests who ride off on a holy quest or holy war might even recover their END continuously, allowing them to perform more miracles.

 

Whether or not you apply a Faith roll to the miracles is up to you.

[Christopher]

Re: Miracles vs Magic: The Faith Reserve

 

How well that works depends on how (limited) magic is by comparsion (where coems the End, what Limitatiosn do you need). I think you play tukarian age, but I have no idea of that worlds magic system.

 

Have you considered going with a Dependecy instead to get the players praying? 6 hours* or 1 day* without prayers in a temple and you start loosing "faith".

 

 

*the bigger one is better for wilderness/travel adventures. The lower better for "city and surrounding".

[Barwickian]

Re: Miracles vs Magic: The Faith Reserve

 

How well that works depends on how (limited) magic is by comparsion (where coems the End' date=' what Limitatiosn do you need). I think you play tukarian age, but I have no idea of that worlds magic system.[/quote']

 

I'm playing in the Turakian Age at the moment, and using TA priestly magic. The faith reserve is not something I'm using in that setting.

 

It occurred to me when I was looking to set a Hero game in Harn.

 

I think the mechanic itself is very flexible and can suit a wide range of power and levels of magic - just adjust the size of the reserve, the rate of recovery and the requirements of the limited recovery. The requirements can also reflect the god's ethos: a war god might have recovery only in combat, an ascetic religion only while fasting, a diety of love recovers only when courting or having sex and so on.

 

Miracle rich? Bigger reserve, faster recovery. Miracle poor? Smaller reserve, slower recovery. Does it need to balance against arcane magic? Isn't that what the point cost does? (Or more accurately, "helps significantly towards".)

 

Have you considered going with a Dependecy instead to get the players praying? 6 hours* or 1 day* without prayers in a temple and you start loosing "faith".

 

I hadn't, as that doesn't model the inspiration for the faith reserve (HarnMaster's faith system).

 

But it's also an interesting idea, and one which could be combined with the faith reserve - you'd have to pray to keep your faith reserve topped up whether you use it or not, but you'd have to pray more if you do use it. The former is simply praising the diety, the latter giving thanks.

 

I like the direction this is taking. The mechanic models what I'd expect a priestly character to be doing: praying frequently.

[Christopher]

Re: Miracles vs Magic: The Faith Reserve

 

I think the mechanic itself is very flexible and can suit a wide range of power and levels of magic - just adjust the size of the reserve' date=' the rate of recovery and the requirements of the limited recovery. The requirements can also reflect the god's ethos: a war god might have recovery only in combat, an ascetic religion only while fasting, a diety of love recovers only when courting or having sex and so on.[/quote']

I asume the world has magic beign cast from Endurane, bought with Character Points and are moderately limted (perhaps in the same way as D&D magic):

When the character has to pay for the Reserve and his Miracles, he could end up loosing a lot more points than a arcane caster for similar power. Also the arcane caster will propably recover his Power faster (normal Recovery once per Turn).

 

The upside could be, that the Faith reserve isn't affected by drains, weather conditions/thirst/starving and long term enduracne loss (optional rule).

[Barwickian]

Re: Miracles vs Magic: The Faith Reserve

 

I asume the world has magic beign cast from Endurane' date=' bought with Character Points and are moderately limted (perhaps in the same way as D&D magic):[/quote']

 

Yes. I'm perfectly happy with this aspect of standard Hero arcane magic for high fantasy games.

 

When the character has to pay for the Reserve and his Miracles, he could end up loosing a lot more points than a arcane caster for similar power. Also the arcane caster will propably recover his Power faster (normal Recovery once per Turn).

 

The upside could be, that the Faith reserve isn't affected by drains, weather conditions/thirst/starving and long term enduracne loss (optional rule).

 

All true. And the net benefit of all this is that arcane and divine powers are different and distinct, which is the purpose of the mechanic. I want miracles to feel and behave differently to spells.

[Christopher]

Re: Miracles vs Magic: The Faith Reserve

 

All true. And the net benefit of all this is that arcane and divine powers are different and distinct' date=' which is the purpose of the mechanic. I want miracles to feel and behave differently to spells.[/quote']

I meant somethign different:

When you have to buy a Endurance Reserve as "Faith" Caster but can simply use your normal Endurance as "Magic" caster, the game get's unbalanced towards the Faith Caster. At least in 6E Endurance Reserves a rahter expensive and it's more effective to go for Straight Endurance.

[Barwickian]

Re: Miracles vs Magic: The Faith Reserve

 

I meant somethign different:

When you have to buy a Endurance Reserve as "Faith" Caster but can simply use your normal Endurance as "Magic" caster, the game get's unbalanced towards the Faith Caster. At least in 6E Endurance Reserves a rahter expensive and it's more effective to go for Straight Endurance.

 

Ah, now I understand. It doesn't worry me too much at this stage - I'm more interested in the concept than the point breaks. And much of the perceived disadvantage can be assuaged by the numbers used.

 

Say you keep the disadvantages in the example above. An 80pt reserve will cost 4 character points. You can use it without getting physically tired. You won't lose it if you get knocked out (as you will with your regular END). But if you use it all, you will have to spend 9 hours praying after the event.

 

It doesn't seem that bad to me.

[Christopher]

Re: Miracles vs Magic: The Faith Reserve

 

An 80pt reserve will cost 4 character points.

What rule version do you use?

In 5E it's 10 END/1 CP and 1 REC/1 CP.

In 6E it's 4 END/1CP and 3 REC/2 CP.

[Manic Typist]

Re: Miracles vs Magic: The Faith Reserve

 

And of course, if you're really concerned with the balance between magic and faith, you could restrict certain effects to faith based miracles only, and of course arcane magic might not be able to block faith effects (but perhaps the reverse is NOT true?).

[Barwickian]

Re: Miracles vs Magic: The Faith Reserve

 

What rule version do you use?

In 5E it's 10 END/1 CP and 1 REC/1 CP.

In 6E it's 4 END/1CP and 3 REC/2 CP.

 

6E.

 

80 point reserve is 20 points, REC 3 is two for 22 active points. Slow recovery (20 mins, -3), Limited (only while performing religious activities, -1), Real Cost 4pts.

[Christopher]

Re: Miracles vs Magic: The Faith Reserve

 

6E.

 

80 point reserve is 20 points, REC 3 is two for 22 active points. Slow recovery (20 mins, -3), Limited (only while performing religious activities, -1), Real Cost 4pts.

I am almsot certain that both Limitations only apply to the Recovery Cost. At least Limited Recovery is noted under Advantages and Adders. I am uncertain about Slow Recovery.

 

Okay, asked Steve:

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php/89521-Endurance-Reserve-with-Slow-Recovery

[Barwickian]

Re: Miracles vs Magic: The Faith Reserve

 

I am almsot certain that both Limitations only apply to the Recovery Cost. At least Limited Recovery is noted under Advantages and Adders. I am uncertain about Slow Recovery.

 

Okay, asked Steve:

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php/89521-Endurance-Reserve-with-Slow-Recovery

 

Re-reading both limitations, you are right. They apply only to the recovery element of the reserve.

 

That changes the costs. The reserve becomes much more expensive: 10 points for the 40-point reserve, 20 points for the 80-point reserve.

 

It's still not crippling, though.

[Christopher]

Re: Miracles vs Magic: The Faith Reserve

 

It's still not crippling' date=' though.[/quote']

For a Heroic Character (175 poitns) it is a lot. Especially if he has to pay points for his spells as well, you better give him something that is worth the extra expense or you could just make priest unplayable.

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: Miracles vs Magic: The Faith Reserve

 

I like the idea of making the arcane magic and divine miracles separate, and the END Reserve models that nicely, although as Christopher points out it could require a significant allotment of points. You might also make divine spells run on Charges, which would only be recovered by praying. That would make clerics a bit less flexible but solve the problem of having to buy an END Reserve. Of course having to follow the restrictions of one's faith might make the cleric less flexible as well, so perhaps the lack of flexibility in spell-casting would be appropriate.

[Old Man]

Re: Miracles vs Magic: The Faith Reserve

 

I like the END reserve idea because it provides a good mechanism to relate faith-based spellcasting to actions in game. In addition to the usual daily prayers or fasting or whatever, you could add to the reserve whenever the character gives money to a beggar or helps an old lady across the street. And you could increase the END cost for a spell that kills orc babies in their sleep, if you were so inclined. It would work a lot like karma does in real life.

[Barwickian]

Re: Miracles vs Magic: The Faith Reserve

 

I like the idea of making the arcane magic and divine miracles separate' date=' and the END Reserve models that nicely, although as Christopher points out it could require a significant allotment of points. You might also make divine spells run on Charges, which would only be recovered by praying. That would make clerics a bit less flexible but solve the problem of having to buy an END Reserve. Of course having to follow the restrictions of one's faith might make the cleric less flexible as well, so perhaps the lack of flexibility in spell-casting would be appropriate.[/quote']

 

There's added book-keeping with tracking multiple charges of different powers as well.

 

However, this is exactly how I'd model something like RuneQuest Divine Magic: one charge per day, recoverable only through praying, and never recoverable for one-use spells.

[Lucius]

Re: Miracles vs Magic: The Faith Reserve

 

I like the idea, and have considered using something similar.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Palindromedary Reserve

[mhd]

Re: Miracles vs Magic: The Faith Reserve

 

I've played in a system that uses something pretty similar, where you had your "karma points" which only regenerated by converting heathens, preaching etc.

Depending on the campaign style, one has to be sure that there's a certain level of "automatic" recovery, at least as long as you're on a relatively normal priestly path, or else there's too much playing to the mechanics. Priests looking for "just one more convert/congregation" can be pretty similar to the "I just need one more goblin for the level-up"…

[bluesguy]

Re: Miracles vs Magic: The Faith Reserve

 

I like this approach. Unfortunately the End reserve costs are 'crazy' high for a Hero level campaign.

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: Miracles vs Magic: The Faith Reserve

 

Of course if the END Reserve costs are too much for a Heroic level priest, you could always put limitations on it to bring the cost down, like "Requires Prayer Roll" or "Side Effect Xd6 Drain vs. END Reserve when sins are committed" or somesuch.

[Nolgroth]

Re: Miracles vs Magic: The Faith Reserve

 

Interesting concept. I can see where you could stat out churches (add as many synonyms as you like) to have a Change Environment that boosts the Recovery, the Faith Reserve, or even both, while on Holy Ground. Seeing an actual miracle, such as a divine agent might be a one time Heal to the Reserve? Lots of potential there. Great idea. And 20 points for 80 Points of END is not so terrible that I would not be tempted to try it out (as a player that is).

[therampantgamer]

Re: Miracles vs Magic: The Faith Reserve

 

I would definitely consider something along the lines of recoverable charges instead of the END reserve. Make the recovery contingent upon acts of faith.

 

That would allow truly miraculous things to occur without having an impossibly high END cost - it is powered by the deity in question, after all - as well as, in most cases, reducing the cost of the power rather than adding an increased END cost.

[Barwickian]

Re: Miracles vs Magic: The Faith Reserve

 

Interesting concept. I can see where you could stat out churches (add as many synonyms as you like) to have a Change Environment that boosts the Recovery' date=' the Faith Reserve, or even both, while on Holy Ground. Seeing an actual miracle, such as a divine agent might be a one time Heal to the Reserve? Lots of potential there. Great idea. And 20 points for 80 Points of END is not so terrible that I would not be tempted to try it out (as a player that is).[/quote']

 

I never considered that, but that's a brilliant idea.

 

The change environment could cut both ways as well. Aid miracles from allied deities, penalise those from opposed deities (by either a drain END reserve or a penalty to the Faith roll).

 

And if we afford environmental bonuses or penalties to holy/unholy ground, there may be social restrictions as well.

 

Hallowed ground, MacLeod!

 

As to the cost of END Reserve, well, maybe this isn't for all games. We're working a concept here - and sometimes concept trumps game cost.

 

Then again, if you like the concept and dislike the cost, apply a cost multiplier to the END Reserve for that setting. Hero's very good like that. Turakian Age divides the cost of spells by 3 (including the cost of priestly spells). I see no reason why priests required to use this model for their miracles couldn't get a similar multiplier on the END Reserve if their GM approves it.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Miracles vs Magic: The Faith Reserve

 

Not thought carefully about this but I have something in my head whereby the END reserve is increased depending on what 'miracles' yuou have access to. Some very useful miracles might carry a small amount of END reserve with them while other 'purer' miracles that are for advancing the deity's agenda might carry more END reserve. This might encourage priests of certain deities to carry miracles that would, from a gamer's perspective, not be worth the points...

 

Doc

[mayapuppies]

Re: Miracles vs Magic: The Faith Reserve

 

Here's an idea I've been toying with for a while. It's inspired by HarnMaster's Piety Points, which power divine magic in that system.

 

It's a way of trying to differentiate arcane magic and divine magic (miracles) in high fantasy games. The idea of siimply replacing a Magic skill roll with a Faith roll and applying an "only in the god's service" limitation doesn't make divine magic distinct enough for my tastes.

 

The basic idea is to use an Endurance Reserve to fuel divine spells. The reserve can only be recharged while performing religious duties.

 

So you build your reserve with a low level of recovery, apply the Slow Recovery limitation at a level to suit, and the Limited Recovery (only while praying or performing religious obligations, -1).

 

So, say we have a priest with a reserve of 40 END (10 points) and REC of 3 (2 points). We apply Slow Recovery at 20 minutes (-3) and Limited Recovery (only while praying or performing religious obligations, -1). Cost of the reserve is 12/5 = 2 points.

 

Our priest can cast miracles (which must be fueled by the reserve, and retain the Only in the god's interests limitation), but the reserve will be reduced and can only be recharged by praying, performing a religious obligation, holy quest or the like, at a rate of 3 REC every 20 minutes.

 

This should ensure that priest characters who perform miracles actually devote some time in prayer, thanking their deity for the power. And priests who ride off on a holy quest or holy war might even recover their END continuously, allowing them to perform more miracles.

 

Whether or not you apply a Faith roll to the miracles is up to you.

This is what we use in the Kamarathin setting.