Ars Tactica

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Ars Tactica

 

You can't Crush/Squeeze while doing a Choke in 5E or 6E.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Ars Tactica

 

You can't Crush/Squeeze while doing a Choke in 5E or 6E.

 

Why not?

 

There is no logical argument against it. The only reason is for game balance purposes because the Crush would bypass the -8 OCV penalty for aiming for the head location, but since you have to make an additional attack roll to Crush even though you have already successfully grabbed (I have problems with this rule as well) the GM can still impose the OCV penalty to the second attack roll, so its not really all that unbalanced.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Ars Tactica

 

I'm not here to argue whether it's logical or not, I was simply pointing out that your "tactic" was based on a House Rule, not RAW.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Ars Tactica

 

I'm not here to argue whether it's logical or not' date=' I was simply pointing out that your "tactic" was based on a House Rule, not RAW.[/quote']

 

Just wondering if you knew the reasoning behind that rule though I know Steve doesn't discuss his rulings with the commoners here. I just remember that such a ruling was not in any of the 5th edition books that I owned including The Ultimate Martial Artist. It may have been somewhere in the online FAQ in which case I don't give a rats arse. If the rule ain't in the book, it don't mean squat to me. I have never needed that FAQ and never will.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Ars Tactica

 

It's in the 5E FAQ, I thought it was in 5ER as well and I'm pretty sure it is included in 6E.

[Ice9]

Re: Ars Tactica

 

Another one I've seen be pretty effective is Martial Throw against unsuspecting speedsters (or anyone moving fast, mounted knights for instance). It's most easily done with Telekinesis, but can also be done with Concealment and being in the right place. With a high-Strength thrower, this can be devastating, but even without that it should deal decent damage and ruin their plans for the phase. And since you don't have to beat their strength, it's a good tactic for hindering foes that outclass you.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Ars Tactica

 

It's in the 5E FAQ' date=' I thought it was in 5ER as well and I'm pretty sure it is included in 6E.[/quote']

 

Ah ok. I didn't buy 5e revised. And I'm still digesting 6th. I have access to 5th revised I'll check it out to see what it says. Thanks for the heads up.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Ars Tactica

 

I'm not sure I agree that it is completely illogical that you can't Squeeze and Choke at the same time. Even if it was allowed it would be getting 2 attacks and thus should have to suffer the penalties for Multiple Attack (or Sweep in 5E). You can't Squeeze and headbut/kick (Strike) for free since both are attack actions. You can't Squeeze and Throw either unless you use a maneuver that allows you to have multiple Attack Actions. I don't find it odd that you can't Martial Flash blinding an opponent and get STR Damage at the same time for free; one type of damage/effect replaces the other. As to avoiding the -8 for head shots that only matters if using Hit Locations which are optional, so if the rule was only for balance (not logic/common sense) I doubt it was about balancing that specific issue. There is also the issue of "how much damage can you do while choking someone?". Sure "realistically" you can cause damage (Body) to someone before they passout from a choke, but unless you are dealing with super strength there is a limit. If you are breaking their neck or crusing their windpipe rolling Normal damage may kill them before they pass out. And always remember Hero models "cinematic" realism. Itms not uncommon for a movie hero to get choked for a good minute or two before elbowing or punching his way free. I guess my point is that not getting two attacks dealing two types of damage as a single attack (or even at all) doesn't seem less logical or break my suspension of disbelief much more than many other game mechanics.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Ars Tactica

 

I'm not sure I agree that it is completely illogical that you can't Squeeze and Choke at the same time. Even if it was allowed it would be getting 2 attacks and thus should have to suffer the penalties for Multiple Attack (or Sweep in 5E). You can't Squeeze and headbut/kick (Strike) for free since both are attack actions. You can't Squeeze and Throw either unless you use a maneuver that allows you to have multiple Attack Actions. I don't find it odd that you can't Martial Flash blinding an opponent and get STR Damage at the same time for free; one type of damage/effect replaces the other. As to avoiding the -8 for head shots that only matters if using Hit Locations which are optional' date=' so if the rule was only for balance (not logic/common sense) I doubt it was about balancing [i']that[/i] specific issue. There is also the issue of "how much damage can you do while choking someone?". Sure "realistically" you can cause damage (Body) to someone before they passout from a choke, but unless you are dealing with super strength there is a limit. If you are breaking their neck or crusing their windpipe rolling Normal damage may kill them before they pass out. And always remember Hero models "cinematic" realism. Itms not uncommon for a movie hero to get choked for a good minute or two before elbowing or punching his way free. I guess my point is that not getting two attacks dealing two types of damage as a single attack (or even at all) doesn't seem less logical or break my suspension of disbelief much more than many other game mechanics.

 

Oh, you misunderstand me. Or rather, I didn't explain in enough detail.

 

What I meant was you could begin with a Choke Hold. Choke Hold is considered a grab. On your next phase, you could change from doing the NND Damage from the Choke Hold, to Squeeze (or Martial Crush) damage. Or throw the target. I didn't mean all those things in the same phase.

[Ninja-Bear]

Re: Ars Tactica

 

Nusoardgraphite-I'll check 5th rev. to see. But speaking of crush I have a friend that thoought it was odd that if you used martial crush you had to reroll after a grab, but if you grab and squeeze, you don't have to reroll to hit.

[Christopher]

Re: Ars Tactica

 

Much of the tactics I use in HERO revolve around use of Martial Maneuvers, Skill Levels and situational modifiers etc. Occasionally we'll put some imaginative use of powers or skills in there as well.

 

Some of my favorites include:

 

Block Maneuver: a very basic tactic that far too many players ignore/forget. The fact that a slower character who blocks a faster character and can preempt that character on their next phase (assuming its in the same segment) is a big tactical advantage. This way a character who was forced to the defensive can turn the tables.

The "go first in next phase" rule does not apply if you had to abort to the Block.

 

It's in the 5E FAQ' date=' I thought it was in 5ER as well and I'm pretty sure it is included in 6E.[/quote']

It is in the rules of choke. In a chokehold all you can do is choke.

 

Oh, you misunderstand me. Or rather, I didn't explain in enough detail.

 

What I meant was you could begin with a Choke Hold. Choke Hold is considered a grab. On your next phase, you could change from doing the NND Damage from the Choke Hold, to Squeeze (or Martial Crush) damage. Or throw the target. I didn't mean all those things in the same phase.

Choke hold has two advantages:

NDD damage

Target can't scream/speak.

 

When you switch yoru choke-hold to a normal hold, the target can scream again,

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Ars Tactica

 

The "go first in next phase" rule does not apply if you had to abort to the Block.

 

technically, the rule applies. Practically, since your next phase is after the one you aborted, you need a heft speed advantage to benefit from it.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Ars Tactica

 

The "go first in next phase" rule does not apply if you had to abort to the Block.

 

They can, it just takes longer. Since you've aborted your next phase, when that phase comes around, you are already using it to block. Technically you could continue to block without having to abort your next upcoming phase. Thus eventually a character who was forced to defend will get a chance to turn the tables.

 

 

It is in the rules of choke. In a chokehold all you can do is choke.

 

So Choke Hold is no longer a Grab? Or is Choke Hold a special Grab and the normal rules of Grab do not apply to it? As far as I know, the other "special" Grabs (Joint Lock etc) while they have special utility (such as the Disable element) they are still considered Grabs and the usual Grab options are available with them (again, unless this has been changed in 6th edition or via the FAQ, which I do not read)

 

So a character placed in a Choke Hold cannot be Shoved? I seem to remember an awful lot of movies and fiction where people in Choke Holds are getting shoved around. You cannot lift someone you have in a Choke Hold and toss them to the ground? Again, many of the fictional sources I'm trying to simulate do this an awful lot. You cannot Squeeze/Crush the throat of someone you have in a Choke Hold? Darth Vader disagrees with the rules!

 

I feel like I would have a very, very hard time justifying this one to my players. Any player for that matter.

 

Choke hold has two advantages:

NDD damage

Target can't scream/speak.

 

When you switch yoru choke-hold to a normal hold, the target can scream again,

 

I'm fine with this. What I am not fine with is disallowing things you should logically be able to accomplish once you have someone by the neck. I have a hard enough time with the fact that the Crush maneuver requires an additional attack roll (which I currently do not require in my games) let alone this little bombshell.

[Manic Typist]

Re: Ars Tactica

 

Hm, someone remind me- when do the penalties for Blocks against additional attacks reset?

 

If I Abort my 8 on 5, then I am Blocking 5-6-7. Since I already Aborted my 8, I have to keep blocking, right? It's been a while since I've played. So I block 8-9-10-11-12.

 

But when 8 rolls around, do the negatives reset? Or do they continue to stack until 12 (or until I fail to Block, obviously)?

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Ars Tactica

 

Hm, someone remind me- when do the penalties for Blocks against additional attacks reset?

 

If I Abort my 8 on 5, then I am Blocking 5-6-7. Since I already Aborted my 8, I have to keep blocking, right? It's been a while since I've played. So I block 8-9-10-11-12.

 

But when 8 rolls around, do the negatives reset? Or do they continue to stack until 12 (or until I fail to Block, obviously)?

 

I think since you aborted, they continue to stack, but I'm not 100% about this.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Ars Tactica

 

I never looked at it as "you can't do crushing damage while using choke hold" but as "choking NND damage is crush/squeeze damage when doing a choke hold". As to the hit roll to do squeeze or choke damage, that just doesn't seem that off to me. You get to inflict the damage for free with no second roll the phase you first make the grab. It's assumed the grabbed person is struggling the entire time, not just when they make their escape roll. It isn't exacly easy to squeeze someone to death, or even unconsiousness, and the grabbed persons lowered DCV generally make the to hit roll pretty easy unless you have a very high DCV martial artist who happened to be grabbed by a slow, low OCV brick or something. EDIT: I'm not saying it is perfect or a house rule would be wrong if you don't like how it works, just that to me it seems pretty balanced and doesn't overly tax my suspension of disbelief.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Ars Tactica

 

I never looked at it as "you can't do crushing damage while using choke hold" but as "choking NND damage is crush/squeeze damage when doing a choke hold". As to the hit roll to do squeeze or choke damage' date=' that just doesn't seem that off to me. You get to inflict the damage for free with no second roll the phase you first make the grab. It's assumed the grabbed person is struggling the entire time, not just when they make their escape roll. It isn't exacly easy to squeeze someone to death, or even unconsiousness, and the grabbed persons lowered DCV generally make the to hit roll pretty easy unless you have a very high DCV martial artist who happened to be grabbed by a slow, low OCV brick or something. EDIT: I'm not saying it is perfect or a house rule would be wrong if you don't like how it works, just that to me it seems pretty balanced and doesn't overly tax my suspension of disbelief.[/quote']

 

You don't have to make a to-hit roll each phase you squeeze for damage (whether NND choke damage or Normal Strength "squeeze" damage) do you? That most certainly was not the case before. The rules were that if you successfully grabbed and the target does not successfully break away, you get to do your STR in damage (or throw the target, or push them back 1" and maintain the hold etc) and each phase you continued to successfully hold on, you get to do damage again. I've been playing since the early days of the 4th edition (even had some 3rd edition stuff) and never heard of having to make a new attack roll to squeeze for damage or to do damage during a choke hold. The only time I've seen reference to this is the Martial Maneuver Crush which I though was pretty weird to require the additional attack roll with.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Ars Tactica

 

You don't have to make a to-hit roll each phase you squeeze for damage ...

 

Actually yes you do. The rule existed in 5th edition. It is implied in earlier editions by the fact that the Grab imposes a DCV penalty.

 

Say a character is grabbed in a classic 'bear-hug'. It seems reasonable that a character who may not be strong enough to break the grab might still be able to wiggle their limbs in such a way to mitigate the effects of the 'squeeze'.

 

The character who gets a few fingers inside of the garotte around their neck is another potential example of this. It's not breaking the grab, it's just avoiding the 'squeeze'.

[Tasha]

Re: Ars Tactica

 

Actually yes you do. The rule existed in 5th edition. It is implied in earlier editions by the fact that the Grab imposes a DCV penalty.

 

Say a character is grabbed in a classic 'bear-hug'. It seems reasonable that a character who may not be strong enough to break the grab might still be able to wiggle their limbs in such a way to mitigate the effects of the 'squeeze'.

 

The character who gets a few fingers inside of the garotte around their neck is another potential example of this. It's not breaking the grab, it's just avoiding the 'squeeze'.

 

I was just going to write how you were wrong, but then I took a look at 5er and found the following passages

"If the Grabber wants to Squeeze or Throw his victim in a later Phase, doing so is an Attack Action (it doesn’t automatically succeed, requires an Attack Roll, and so forth)." 5ER pg 386 -387

"If the Attack Roll for a Squeeze fails, the victim takes no damage but remains Grabbed." 5ER pg 386

 

For years we played that once grabbed the target could be squeezed each phase till the target escapes or is released/thrown. This is a bit of a nerf to Bricks who don't always have great OCV.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Ars Tactica

 

I was just going to write how you were wrong, but then I took a look at 5er and found the following passages

"If the Grabber wants to Squeeze or Throw his victim in a later Phase, doing so is an Attack Action (it doesn’t automatically succeed, requires an Attack Roll, and so forth)." 5ER pg 386 -387

"If the Attack Roll for a Squeeze fails, the victim takes no damage but remains Grabbed." 5ER pg 386

 

For years we played that once grabbed the target could be squeezed each phase till the target escapes or is released/thrown. This is a bit of a nerf to Bricks who don't always have great OCV.

 

I'm pretty sure that rule didn't exist before the Revised edition. The reason I didn't know about it was because I didn't use Revised. I have a copy, but never really read through it much because I already know 90+% of the rules from the 4th and 5th edition. If you read the detailed rules on Grab in The Ultimate Martial Artsist, the additional attack roll to squeeze is never mentioned as far as I know.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Ars Tactica

 

I would think that it's not mentioned in UMA because it was already assumed. I think the only reason it was mentioned in regards to the Crush Maneuver was to point out it didn't get a that as an advanage over regular Squeeze damage, ie Crush uses the default rule.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Ars Tactica

 

5e page 256 states:

Squeezing or throwing the Grabbed character does not require an Attack Roll (it automatically succeeds) and takes no time if performed in the same Segment in which the Grab was performed. (If performed in a later Phase, it is considered an Attack Action.)

 

So it is a slight change from 5e to 5er. The required "Attack Action" on later Phases still implies/could be interpreted to mean that an actual attack roll is required on all phases after the initial Grab.

 

edit.

I just checked my 4e copy of Ultimate Martial Artist (page 176) and it is similar to 5e on grabs. Like 5e it spends a lot of text on DCV reductions associated with being grabbed. No implicit exception is made for 'squeezing' except for the text quoted above from 5e.

[Tasha]

Re: Ars Tactica

 

I'm pretty sure that rule didn't exist before the Revised edition. The reason I didn't know about it was because I didn't use Revised. I have a copy' date=' but never really read through it much because I already know 90+% of the rules from the 4th and 5th edition. If you read the detailed rules on Grab in The Ultimate Martial Artsist, the additional attack roll to squeeze is never mentioned as far as I know.[/quote']

 

Yeah, I am the same way.

 

Checked and 4th ed and 5th don't have that rule (that you have to make an attack roll to squeeze after the initial grab phase). Honestly it really doesn't make sense to me why someone would have to make an attack roll to squeeze someone you already have control over. I have to wonder if Steve added it to the original 5th manuscript just to have Bruce remove it during editing. Then when the chance came to publish the whole manuscript for 5er it reappeared.

[Tasha]

Re: Ars Tactica

 

5e page 256 states:

 

 

So it is a slight change from 5e to 5er. The required "Attack Action" on later Phases still implies/could be interpreted to mean that an actual attack roll is required on all phases after the initial Grab.

 

edit.

I just checked my 4e copy of Ultimate Martial Artist (page 176) and it is similar to 5e on grabs. Like 5e it spends a lot of text on DCV reductions associated with being grabbed. No implicit exception is made for 'squeezing' except for the text quoted above from 5e.

 

To me the "Attack Action" needed was to prevent the grabber from taking multiple actions in a phase. Basically Squeezing was an attack that ended the grabbers phase, not a free action.

[Ninja-Bear]

Re: Ars Tactica

 

Yeah, I am the same way.

 

Checked and 4th ed and 5th don't have that rule (that you have to make an attack roll to squeeze after the initial grab phase). Honestly it really doesn't make sense to me why someone would have to make an attack roll to squeeze someone you already have control over. I have to wonder if Steve added it to the original 5th manuscript just to have Bruce remove it during editing. Then when the chance came to publish the whole manuscript for 5er it reappeared.

 

I wonder if it was changed to so it would make martial crush alittle more powerful. Do you have a problem with this rule with throw? As in, if you decide to throw on a later phase, then you have to make a new to-hit roll. It could also have been changed to keep the throw/crush option the same. I.e. the phase you grab you can autoamtically either throw or crush but if you wait, then you must make a new to-hit roll. Fwiw, I see no problems with requiring a to-hit roll to try to martial escape, but that's my 'real world' experience.