Ars Tactica

[Sean Waters]

We've had a couple of recent threads that have wound up discussing tactics. We've had threads before about particularly effective powers and synergies, but I was wondering about particularly effective tactics, particularly combat tactics that take advantage of the Hero rules, or just the way you play the game.

 

Please feel free to post any useful tactics here for discussion. Some tactics may even be value neutral - there are advantages and disadvantages - but it would be interesting to debate the merits anyway. It would also be good to cover any lesser known rules that can have an impact on combat.

 

For example: did you know that Hero has a rule for 'guarding an area' making it risky for someone to try and slip past you in combat?

 

Did you know that, if you entangle someone, they stop moving and can not use movement powers except teleport? Entangling fliers (even if their flight works on reversing gravity or somesuch) can be a very effective tactic as it causes them to fall until they can break out, and falling damage can be REALLY nasty.

[Christopher]

Re: Ars Tactica

 

Did you know that' date=' if you entangle someone, they stop moving and can not use movement powers except teleport? Entangling fliers (even if their flight works on reversing gravity or somesuch) can be a very effective tactic as it causes them to fall until they can break out, and falling damage can be REALLY nasty.[/quote']

How a entangle interacts with movement powers of any SFX is up to the GM. I think the handcuff example clearly allows you to move with gravity flight.

 

One tactic I think might be effective (propably abusive/overpowered):

The Phase Shifting Agents.

 

Take four agents with SPD 3 (Phases in Segments 4, 8, 12) vs 1 Super:

Segment 4: One agent hold his phase till the end of the segment, then takes his shoot. the other three hold thier phases.

Segment 5: Anotehr agent takes his shoot (at the end of the segment), the other two delay

Segment 6: third agent takes his shoot, the other two delay

Segment 7: last agent takes his shoot

Segment 8: begin anew.

 

In effect they stretch thier phases over the turn, to act like a single 12 SPD entity.

Every agent get's his shoot, but they can adapt to what thier target does:

If he abort to anything defensive, the will coordinate thier attack to most effetively avoid his defense (take the grenades vs. the doging guy, use the slot with extra OCV)

For example, if he attacks they all will shoot at him this segment (because he can't abort in that segment, making him a prime target).

If he attacks one of those that has held thier phase or shoot last segment, that one can abort. The others hit him.

If he holds as well, then he is in the defensive and won't win.

 

But as I said:

This technique is not a suiteable tactic for Agents in a Supergame. That is simply to "smart", too "planend out". Agents need at least some amount of battle supidity or they get more important than the superhumans they should support.

It might be applicable to well trained and equiped anti-super specialists (I think viper has some), but overall you should jsut let them take thier phases when they are due.

[Old Man]

Re: Ars Tactica

 

To build on the original mention of Entangle, I've often employed weak transparent Entangles as a way to drop on opponent's DCV to zero for a phase or two. As long as the victim can't break out with casual STR, he's a piñata until he gets another full phase. Often that Entangle will also be area effect so as to really pin down swarms or martial artists.

 

You can do similar things with Flash, though only to half DCV of course.

 

Phase Shifting Agents sounds like a refinement of the pack tactics that always work well in Hero. In theory, as long as your side outnumbers the other side, everyone on your squad is +3 DCV, because they're dodging. It rarely works that cleanly in practice, but numbers are still a huge advantage.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Ars Tactica

 

If the high school guy picked on by the jocks who gets bitten by a radioactive gerbil can figure out how to delay his action, I fail to see why a trained soldier, police officer or agent (all of whom are pretty elite compared to that "normal human" or even "high school jock" template) should be unable to do so.

[Ice9]

Re: Ars Tactica

 

Yeah, Entangle is quite nasty. In fact, I think even getting a casual strength attempt when initially hit is a (fairly common) house-rule; by the rules, even a 1/1 Entangle will ruin your day.

 

Here's one I've noticed - the Cover maneuver. There's no reason you can't make that your SOP - instead of shooting people, Cover them and then take the shot immediately. Saves on ammunition, gives you the option to trigger it at an inconvenient moment, and there's not really any downside, AFAICT.

 

Obviously this one depends on having powerful enough abilities, but air juggling has always seemed pretty effective. Delay your actions a bit to spread them out, and then use knockback to keep someone airborn. If they can't fly, they're unable to do much, and at half DCV (or arguably, 0 DCV).

 

Grab-By can be used to quickly convey your slower teammates into battle, as well as moving foes out of it. Combine them both and put your bricks in close quarters with their ranged types, away from any reinforcements.

[Ninja-Bear]

Re: Ars Tactica

 

Did you know that with contortsion roll you can add to your break out roll at 1D6 per 1 that you made your roll. That can help with against weak entangles.

[Christopher]

Re: Ars Tactica

 

Here's one I've noticed - the Cover maneuver. There's no reason you can't make that your SOP - instead of shooting people' date=' Cover them and then take the shot immediately. Saves on ammunition, gives you the option to trigger it at an inconvenient moment, and there's not really any downside, AFAICT.[/quote']

Cover (as opposed to covering an area) has a rather big OCV/DCV penalty. It is ideal if you just managed to apply a big OCV penalty (Stun, Entangle, Prone) or if your foe is weak, but not so much for an open combat.

 

Another one on the "so powerfull, it's propably unfair":

4d6 Drain Strenght (40 Base). If the target is weak (14 STR or less) he should drop to 0 Strenght. And there is still reserves to make it bigger, an Area of Effect, Damage Shield or whatever.

 

At 0 STR:

All muscle based movement is halved

DCV is halved

You need to make a STR to perform most actions (even just aiming and firing or changing a clip).

Special addon: If the enemy has increased mass (DI, Growth), the point of "having 0 STR" goes up by +5 per doubling. So the extra Strenght from Growth and DI does not helps against it (it would still help with the STR roll to act, I think).

 

 

Did you know:

Flashing the touch sense, has severe penalties for combat:

-3 on Dex based Skills, OCV in HTH (and Ranged Firearms) and "other things requiring manual dexterity". The GM may also Invoke "Mystery Damage" (Player is not informed about STUN/Body taken).

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Ars Tactica

 

Cover (as opposed to covering an area) has a rather big OCV/DCV penalty. It is ideal if you just managed to apply a big OCV penalty (Stun' date=' Entangle, Prone) or if your foe is weak, but not so much for an open combat.[/quote']

 

It has a -2 OCV and no DCV penalty in my copy of the rules. Significant, but not horrific, although a reduced DCV still helps a lot.

 

Another one on the "so powerfull, it's propably unfair":

4d6 Drain Strenght (40 Base). If the target is weak (14 STR or less) he should drop to 0 Strenght. And there is still reserves to make it bigger, an Area of Effect, Damage Shield or whatever.

 

Several Drains have this issue - INT comes to mind. CON won't drop to 0 as fast, but watch the target getting Stunned. EGO doesn't drop as fast either, but it's devastating. Oh, and that extra 20 points can be used for reduced rate of return so they STAY drained.

 

Draining SPD has the added advantage of invoking the dreaded "speed change in the turn" rules (which probably costs a lot of actions by RAW, and often more because the GM just throws his hands in the air).

 

We had a GM who relied heavily on combat order sheets. A 1 point DEX Drain was amazingly powerful, as the GM could announce "25 DEX - Mr. X moves" to the response "Wasn't his DEX drained?" "Oh yeah - he doesn't move yet". And he didn't move at 24 either since he wasn't on the sheet at 24...that's more advanced tactics of knowing the weaknesses of the "opponent", though...

[Old Man]

Re: Ars Tactica

 

I'm trying hard to keep my comments from veering into character creation or munchkinism here... another thing I used to do was tune my OCV/DCV using combat levels. Because of the 3d6 bell curve distribution, changing a 10- die roll to an 11- makes a much bigger difference in probability than changing a 14- to a 15-. So if I'm prioritizing DCV like I usually do, I'll put enough levels on DCV to get opponents down to an 8- or 9- to hit, and any spare levels can go on offense.

 

Conversely, in some cases it was actually more beneficial to leave the levels on OCV and block. This was usually the better approach in a one-on-one situation with an opponent that had a SPD advantage over my PC. For Fantasy Hero specifically, blocking with a large shield works awfully well.

 

edit: Oh, and I forgot a good variation on the Entangle trick, which is to use Telekinesis to hold your opponent a few feet off the ground. Telekinesis is almost a must-have power to begin with, and being able to temporarily neutralize enemies that don't have Flight or ranged attacks is just icing.

[Ninja-Bear]

Re: Ars Tactica

 

Don't foget though that martial escape can be applied to tk-grabs. It may not make sense but them are rules ; )

[Mister E]

Re: Ars Tactica

 

Don't foget though that martial escape can be applied to tk-grabs. It may not make sense but them are rules ; )

 

Right. Flight (w/ Usable As Attack) pwns.

[Ninja-Bear]

Re: Ars Tactica

 

Oh and flying dodge! I get to dodge then I get a full move. Classic example of just because its legal, doesn;t mean you should allow it.

[Mister E]

Re: Ars Tactica

 

... One tactic I think might be effective (propably abusive/overpowered):

The Phase Shifting Agents.

 

Take four agents with SPD 3 (Phases in Segments 4, 8, 12) ...

 

Duplicate vs. Speed

 

This reminds me of the fight between Neo & all the Agent Smith clones in the Matrix sequel.

[Ninja-Bear]

Re: Ars Tactica

 

Did you know you get a casual strength roll to break out of chokehold?

[Bodkins Odds]

Re: Ars Tactica

 

Yes, but it doesn't really matter if your casual strength isn't enough to even have a chance of succeeding the break out roll.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Ars Tactica

 

I always liked the tactic of Entangling someone who is hard to hit like a speedster or martial artist, but instead of just hitting or shooting him while entangled having the team brick Grab him. 60 STR squeeze damage and even if the Entangle gets busted he's still being held by the brick. Hope he has Martial Escape and extra damage classes for Martial Arts....

[Ninja-Bear]

Re: Ars Tactica

 

Yes' date=' but it doesn't really matter if your casual strength isn't enough to even have a chance of succeeding the break out roll.[/quote']

 

Yeah your right. It still took me by surprise though. but I believe that you're allowed to add half your bonus from martial escape to your casual strength roll. It may not make a difference for majority of characters/battles, it could come in handy at some time though.

[Bodkins Odds]

Re: Ars Tactica

 

And of course, there is always the theoretical possibility that the grabber could roll all ones. Imagine that conversation:

 

Player: Alright, I got him in my Choke Hold and my effective STR is 70. There's no way this guy is breaking out.

Rolls fourteen ones.

GM: I rolled one body, the Agent breaks free of your Choke Hold.

Player:

[Christopher]

Re: Ars Tactica

 

And of course, there is always the theoretical possibility that the grabber could roll all ones. Imagine that conversation:

 

Player: Alright, I got him in my Choke Hold and my effective STR is 70. There's no way this guy is breaking out.

Rolls fourteen ones.

GM: I rolled one body, the Agent breaks free of your Choke Hold.

Player:

The propability of 0 Normal Body on 14d6 is 78,364,164,096 too 1.

 

Since this is about an agent (not anyone relevant), it might be simply the point where you don't roll...

[Ninja-Bear]

Re: Ars Tactica

 

The propability of 0 Normal Body on 14d6 is 78,364,164,096 too 1.

 

Since this is about an agent (not anyone relevant), it might be simply the point where you don't roll...

 

True story, my friend had a mentalist and I let the agent make a roll to get out. He succeed, my friend wasn't happy.

[Pegasus40218]

Re: Ars Tactica

 

I'm VERY interested in this topic, and this is a great example of the type of thinking/advice that I'm looking for. Being relatively new to the system and trying to run a Fantasy Hero (low-fantasy) game, I've been struggling a bit with combat tactics. Most of the encounters so far, the PCs have not been out-numbered by their opponents. I have 5 PCs, and the combats so far have been against 3, 4, or 5 opponents. Generally speaking, to increase the challenge level of an encounter, is it more effective to have more opponents or more powerful opponents?

[Christopher]

Re: Ars Tactica

 

I'm VERY interested in this topic' date=' and this is a great example of the type of thinking/advice that I'm looking for. Being relatively new to the system and trying to run a Fantasy Hero (low-fantasy) game, I've been struggling a bit with combat tactics. Most of the encounters so far, the PCs have not been out-numbered by their opponents. I have 5 PCs, and the combats so far have been against 3, 4, or 5 opponents. Generally speaking, to increase the challenge level of an encounter, is it more effective to have more opponents or more powerful opponents?[/quote']

The sum of SPD seems to be more important than RAW CV's.

The "Quality of Play" has a big influence. 20 SPD 2 mooks can be pretty ineffective, if they aren't played to thier full potential. Pack out full maneuvers and teamwork, and the heroes could be doomed.

 

When I would be asked to choose between +1 SPD or +1 OCV&DCV (or +2 in either) - I would always choose the SPD. Even 1/5 more action is still more worth than +10/+10 or +20. You can invest that extra phase into a defensive Maneuver and are still better off.

 

Of course in praxis there are limits, certain areas for characteristics are onyl allowed for certain archetypes.

[Beast]

Re: Ars Tactica

 

I'm more for using terrain to limit how many can shoot at me,especially with agents

 

6th ed area effects makes it a hell of a lot cheaper to get a small area for a 1/4 advantage

great for mook busting and be able to do say 9d6 vs 6d6 which has almost no or little effect with 15 total in def

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Ars Tactica

 

Much of the tactics I use in HERO revolve around use of Martial Maneuvers, Skill Levels and situational modifiers etc. Occasionally we'll put some imaginative use of powers or skills in there as well.

 

Some of my favorites include:

 

Block Maneuver: a very basic tactic that far too many players ignore/forget. The fact that a slower character who blocks a faster character and can preempt that character on their next phase (assuming its in the same segment) is a big tactical advantage. This way a character who was forced to the defensive can turn the tables. Also, the fact that additional blocks can be performed without sacrificing another phase on the in-between segments is not to be underestimated.

 

Martial Block: Besides having the same advantages as the Standard Block maneuver mentioned above, Martial Block adds +2 to both the characters OCV and DCV. This has the added benefit of making the character harder to hit in general (+2 DCV) and allowing the character to block at least 2 attacks before his normal OCV is negatively impacted. Defensive Block is similar, but even better when facing against multiple attackers for the increase in DCV (+3 DCV from Defensive Block)

 

Defensive Strike: with its +1 OCV and +3 DCV bonus, Defensive Strike is a manifestation of the saying "The best Defense is a good Offense!" When using this maneuver, the character is basically dodging and attacking in the same phase. That's right, the character has the same DCV bonus as a character using the standard Dodge maneuver, but can still attack. The only downside to this maneuver is the lack of damage bonus, but that's only a problem if your opponents have high defenses.

 

Fast Strike: My favorite Martial Maneuver. It has +2 OCV bonus and a +2DC damage bonus. Fast Strike helps implement 2 solid combat tactics. 1st, the +2 OCV helps mitigate the OCV penalties one faces when aiming for specific hit locations. Aiming for the Chest location is -3 OCV, the benefit being avoiding hitting the limbs with 1/2 Body/Stun modifiers and low Stun multipliers for killing attacks. With the chest, the normal body damage modifier and x3 Stun multiplier is easily worth taking the -3 to your OCV, except with Fast Strike, that -3 is reduced to a -1 meaning that characters with equal OCV to DCV ration still has a 10 or less chance to hit (50/50). Those odds ain't bad. When combined with just a few Combat Skill Levels, the odds shift considerably. 2cnd, Fast Strike helps implement additional attacks in a Sweep maneuver. The +2 OCV essentially giving the character an "additional" hit without impacting the characters regular OCV. For example a character who performs a Sweep maneuver for two hits takes a -2 penalty to his OCV. Using Fast Strike for that Sweep however, the character can perform 3 hits at that same OCV.

 

Weapon Bind: This is another favorite. Lock up your opponents weapon, then pummel then head-butts and knee strikes. Two Weapon Stylists should always have this maneuver. When facing opponents with only a single weapon, they should use one weapon to Bind, then attack freely with their secondary weapon until the opponents gets their weapon unbound or falls. Anyone who thinks Two Weapon fighting is useless obviously never thought about that tactic. Weapon and Shield stylists shouldn't forget about this maneuver either. It works just as well for them.

 

Grab Weapon: A great maneuver when fighting in close combat. A good tactic when fighting opponents of equal or greater STR scores is to grab their weapon, then perform a Strike against them. If that strike successfully stuns them, then you use the Redirect option of Grab Weapon to attack them with their own weapon, and because they are Stunned, they will only get to use their Casual STR to resist the Redirect attempt!

 

Choke Hold: Choke Hold is great. NND Damage. Can cause the opponent to pass out if they don't break out and can even kill your opponent if you continue to choke them. However it has even better utility when couple with the...

 

Crush: ....Crush maneuver. STR+4D6 Damage to whatever location was grabbed. Okay, I think this was originally conceived as a Bear Hug type maneuver where you can crush an opponents ribs with this. However, when coupled with the Choke Hold maneuver, which is a grab maneuver, the implications are devastating. After a successful to-hit roll (yes you need to roll another to-hit roll to successfully crush, but you shouldn't have to roll a hit location roll...you are crushing the location you just grabbed) the character performing the Choke Hold should get to do STR+4D6 damage directly to their opponents throat location which is part of the Head Hit Location result which means x2 Body and x2 NStun! Please note that while my logic as to why this should be allowed is pretty solid, there will still be quite a few GM's who will likely veto/outlaw this maneuver because the Choke Hold allows the bypassing of the massive -8 hit location penalty on behalf of the Crush Maneuver. Some GM's will probably require the -8 Hit Location penalty to anyone who wants to get the benefit of X2 Body and X2 NStun bonuses when using Crush after a Choke Hold, as is their right as GM. Use this with Telekinesis and feel like a true Dark Lord of the Sith!

[Beast]

Re: Ars Tactica

 

What are the odd of say that 15 str agent rolling say 4body and then 70 str brick rolling 3 body

I bet the odds come down a few orders of magnitude

 

The propability of 0 Normal Body on 14d6 is 78,364,164,096 too 1.

 

Since this is about an agent (not anyone relevant), it might be simply the point where you don't roll...