Ars Tactica

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Ars Tactica

 

To me the "Attack Action" needed was to prevent the grabber from taking multiple actions in a phase. Basically Squeezing was an attack that ended the grabbers phase' date=' not a free action.[/quote']

 

Exactly. Every group I ever played with (not many with Hero, but still enough) did not require an additional attack roll to squeeze. Everybody seemed to understand intuitively that when you had someone grabbed, you could squeeze them for damage when your phase came up.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Ars Tactica

 

I wonder if it was changed to so it would make martial crush alittle more powerful. Do you have a problem with this rule with throw? As in' date=' if you decide to throw on a later phase, then you have to make a new to-hit roll. It could also have been changed to keep the throw/crush option the same. I.e. the phase you grab you can autoamtically either throw or crush but if you wait, then you must make a new to-hit roll. Fwiw, I see no problems with requiring a to-hit roll to try to martial escape, but that's my 'real world' experience.[/quote']

 

Even with the need to make an attack roll every phase, Martial Crush is still pretty powerful. Your grabbed opponent is 1/2DCV so for the most part its not too difficult to implement and the +4D6 damage bonus makes it worth the effort IMO.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Ars Tactica

 

Why is it assumed that a Grab is actually around a target's limb or torso? It could easily be around a targets clothes/armor/costume which still allows for the normal escape rules. This would explain why a new Attack is needed to adjust grip to target something that squeezing will actually hurt.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Ars Tactica

 

Why is it assumed that a Grab is actually around a target's limb or torso? It could easily be around a targets clothes/armor/costume which still allows for the normal escape rules. This would explain why a new Attack is needed to adjust grip to target something that squeezing will actually hurt.

 

Because Grab explicitly states that the "normal" Grab maneuver encloses a target and immobilizes "two limbs" (usually the arms). You could opt to grab the targets clothes, or grab the legs, or grab around the chest (maybe those are hit location results?), but the default is grab the targets torso, pinning both arms.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Ars Tactica

 

Because Grab explicitly states that the "normal" Grab maneuver encloses a target and immobilizes "two limbs" (usually the arms). ....

 

And nothing about that means it isn't being accomplished by way of grabbing the target's clothes. Judo (a martial art based on grabs) does this all the time.

 

My point is that a grip optimized for holding may not always be optimized for squeezing, hence the 2nd Attack roll requirement.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Ars Tactica

 

And nothing about that means it isn't being accomplished by way of grabbing the target's clothes. Judo (a martial art based on grabs) does this all the time.

 

Judo has grabs that utilize the clothes and immobilizes both arms? Admittedly I'm no Judo or Aikido expert, but I don't recall ever seeing such a hold. The grabbing of clothes most certainly, usually to implement an immediate throw or take down.

 

My point is that a grip optimized for holding may not always be optimized for squeezing, hence the 2nd Attack roll requirement.

 

I see your point, but I don't think that's what they meant when they talked about the basic Grab maneuver pre Revised. (I think the image was the typical Bear Hug, something you would normally see the Hulk or Thing use)

[Christopher]

Re: Ars Tactica

 

They can' date=' it just takes longer. Since you've aborted your next phase, when that phase comes around, you are already using it to block. Technically you could continue to block without having to abort your next upcoming phase. Thus eventually a character who was forced to defend will get a chance to turn the tables.[/quote']

The rule aplies only if the next phase of attacker and blocker are in the same segment.

It does not apply if the attacker has a phase before the blocker and they then have a phase in the same segment.

 

So Choke Hold is no longer a Grab? Or is Choke Hold a special Grab and the normal rules of Grab do not apply to it?

Choke hold (the maneuver you have to do firt, to do choking damage) works like a normal grab for the following things:

How the target escapes.

OCV/DCV penalties for grabber and grabee.

 

However:

It only immobilizes one limb (head/neck) - if you want to grab more, make a extra grab action (multi attack or following segment). You might have to only use one hand to imobilize the head/neck and the other parts (-5 STR).

All you can do is the Choke attack action, wich deals 1d6 NND per succesfull attack.

 

On the plus sides:

You can deal NND damage during a Grab (you could not using normal Grab rules, as you can't do Nerve Strikes while grabbing).

The target cannot shout/speak/incantate until it breaks the Hold.

 

As far as I know' date=' the other "special" Grabs (Joint Lock etc) while they have special utility (such as the Disable element) they are still considered Grabs and the usual Grab options are available with them (again, unless this has been changed in 6th edition or via the FAQ, which I do not read)[/quote']

HSMA 6E has a few "Joint Lock/Grab" Maneuvers lsited. All are "Grab one limb, +10 STR to hold on".

There are also "Joint Lock/Throw" Maneuvers. All are "Grab one limb, Target Falls, 1d6 NND(7)".

This NND damage works the same way as NND from Nerve Strikes (it's the same maneuver building element).

It is similar to let a throw also deal Strike Damage (but since it's NND, you have to buy every die instead of using STR as basis).

The 7 mean a special set of "defenses against joint bending", that are defined lower in the book.

 

The book does have a few special "Martial Choke" Maneuvers, "Grab one Limb, 2d6 NND(2)".

NND(2) means special defense is similar to normal (optional) Choke Maneuver.

 

I'm fine with this. What I am not fine with is disallowing things you should logically be able to accomplish once you have someone by the neck. I have a hard enough time with the fact that the Crush maneuver requires an additional attack roll (which I currently do not require in my games) let alone this little bombshell.

Then perhaps it would be easiest to define that "Choke" is a attack/maneuver you can only do while grabbing the targets neck/head?

It's still a attack action every phase*, you still get one free in the same phase you grabbed (instead of your Slam/Squeeze/Throw/Control/Redirect/etc...)

 

*the same way Squeeze is. Inlcuding the attack roll.

 

Hm, someone remind me- when do the penalties for Blocks against additional attacks reset?

 

If I Abort my 8 on 5, then I am Blocking 5-6-7. Since I already Aborted my 8, I have to keep blocking, right? It's been a while since I've played. So I block 8-9-10-11-12.

 

But when 8 rolls around, do the negatives reset? Or do they continue to stack until 12 (or until I fail to Block, obviously)?

I think it piles up until:

You fail a roll (wich "ends" your Block).

You make another maneuver (inlcuding aborting to another Block, when you can abort again).

 

So the only way I see to refresh it, is to abort again once you get to that point.

 

For years we played that once grabbed the target could be squeezed each phase till the target escapes or is released/thrown. This is a bit of a nerf to Bricks who don't always have great OCV.

As is see it, this is a one limb Grab (done with one limb on the attacker side, so -5 STR):

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_DaJ3kL1Xh1k/TOSIeVqAdTI/AAAAAAAABxQ/-EfijbJlHlo/s1600/10+arm+grab+2.jpg

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/data/resources/library/images/20060313PHT06103/20060313PHT06103_original.jpg

 

While this (what you seem to refer too):

Has for me the following elements:

Grab two limbs + torso.

If you could not attack him from behind, that also requires one use of Controll Optional Grab Maneuver to "turn him around" relative to you.

 

Because Grab explicitly states that the "normal" Grab maneuver encloses a target and immobilizes "two limbs" (usually the arms). You could opt to grab the targets clothes' date=' or grab the legs, or grab around the chest (maybe those are hit location results?), but the default is grab the targets torso, pinning both arms.[/quote']

No, default is grabbing two limbs, not "two limbs and controll".

 

And afaik the source amterial implies that a agile martial artist can avoid relevant crush damage (stun in hero trems), even against a much stronger character. If he even get's hit.

Also if you can hit him with a Grab in the first place (-2 OCV, more for more limbs) - then his halved DCV should not be a problem a problem at all.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Ars Tactica

 

The rule aplies only if the next phase of attacker and blocker are in the same segment.

It does not apply if the attacker has a phase before the blocker and they then have a phase in the same segment.

 

No one is saying differently. examples of where this could be relevant:

 

(a) Attacker is SPD 3. On Phase 8, he attacks Defender, SPD 4. Defender Aborts to Block and succeeds. Phase 9 comes and goes. Attacker does not act, and Defender took his Phase 9 action in Phase 8. In Phase 12, Attacker and Defender each have a phase. Defender goes first due to the successful block, even if Attacker has a higher DEX.

 

( Attacker and Defender are both SPD 4. On Ph 3, Attacker attacks, and Defender aborts to block, and succeeds. On Ph 6, Attacker attacks, and Defender Blocks again, at -2 since it is the second in the series of Blocks. He succeeds. On Ph 9, Defender moves first as they both have an action and he successfully Blocked in Ph 6.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Ars Tactica

 

Judo has grabs that utilize the clothes and immobilizes both arms? Admittedly I'm no Judo or Aikido expert, but I don't recall ever seeing such a hold. The grabbing of clothes most certainly, usually to implement an immediate throw or take down.

 

 

 

I see your point, but I don't think that's what they meant when they talked about the basic Grab maneuver pre Revised. (I think the image was the typical Bear Hug, something you would normally see the Hulk or Thing use)

 

With regard to the Hulk/Thing examples from the comics it is easy enough to rule it in-game as a variation of the Absolute Effect rule.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Ars Tactica

 

.

Choke hold (the maneuver you have to do firt, to do choking damage) works like a normal grab for the following things:

How the target escapes.

OCV/DCV penalties for grabber and grabee.

 

However:

It only immobilizes one limb (head/neck) - if you want to grab more, make a extra grab action (multi attack or following segment). You might have to only use one hand to imobilize the head/neck and the other parts (-5 STR).

All you can do is the Choke attack action, wich deals 1d6 NND per succesfull attack.

 

On the plus sides:

You can deal NND damage during a Grab (you could not using normal Grab rules, as you can't do Nerve Strikes while grabbing).

The target cannot shout/speak/incantate until it breaks the Hold.

 

Can't argue with any of this. However from the 5th edition on back, I don't recall reading anything that stated the other grab options were unavailable during a Choke Hold. And the NND damage from Choke simulates cutting off the opponents airway which would cause unconsciousness or eventually death. Not a Nerve Strike at all. In fact, the 5th edition version of The Ultimate Martial Artist states that Grabs to Hit Location 5 (The neck portion of the head location) not only do the extra damage for hitting the head location (during a Squeeze for STR damage) but cuts off their breath making them unable to shout or speak. (UMA 5th page 146) so Choke Hold is not unique in this ability.

 

HSMA 6E has a few "Joint Lock/Grab" Maneuvers lsited. All are "Grab one limb, +10 STR to hold on".

There are also "Joint Lock/Throw" Maneuvers. All are "Grab one limb, Target Falls, 1d6 NND(7)".

This NND damage works the same way as NND from Nerve Strikes (it's the same maneuver building element).

It is similar to let a throw also deal Strike Damage (but since it's NND, you have to buy every die instead of using STR as basis).

The 7 mean a special set of "defenses against joint bending", that are defined lower in the book.

 

The book does have a few special "Martial Choke" Maneuvers, "Grab one Limb, 2d6 NND(2)".

NND(2) means special defense is similar to normal (optional) Choke Maneuver.

 

yep. Grab one limb, 2D6NND(2). That one limb being the head. Nowhere does it state that Choke Hold is exempt from the other rules of Grab, which was the thrust of my original post saying that one could use a Choke Hold to grab hit location 5, then implement a Crush maneuver (must follow Grab element) in the following phase. Some GM's may allow it to get the damage bonus for hitting the head location (5) without penalizing the attack roll for Crush with a -8 for aiming for the Head location, since it just follows the Grab and crushes whatever location the character is currently hold. (however most probably will not allow this)

 

There are others here that apparently believe this tactic isn't valid and that implementing a Choke Hold on a target is all you can do with that particular Grab and that a Crush maneuver could not follow Choke Hold (which is a Grab maneuver) or Squeeze for STR damage, or Throw, Shove, Control etc which are all options the aggressor has in a Grab situation. I do however see a precedent in not allowing Crush to follow Choke Hold or allowing Squeeze damage as The UMA states that you cannot mix Normal Damage and NND damage in the same maneuver, however this is for the purposes of creating a Martial Maneuver, meaning one cannot build a maneuver that has both NND and Normal or Killing damage elements (nor can one mix Normal and Killing damage in the same maneuver) and since Crush is a wholly different maneuver from Choke Hold, I think it is allowable as Crush is simply following a Grab (the Choke Hold) as per the rules of Crush.

 

Then perhaps it would be easiest to define that "Choke" is a attack/maneuver you can only do while grabbing the targets neck/head?

It's still a attack action every phase*, you still get one free in the same phase you grabbed (instead of your Slam/Squeeze/Throw/Control/Redirect/etc...)

 

*the same way Squeeze is. Inlcuding the attack roll.

 

According to UMA page 146, this is already true. Grabbing the Head location (5) gives you the benefits of a Choke Hold, minus the NND damage (it does STR damage, including damage modifiers for attacking the Head if one is using them in their campaign)

[Ninja-Bear]

Re: Ars Tactica

 

For cloth only hold, I'm not sure whats its called, but its done in hockey. Its where you pull your opponents jersey or jacket over their head. I had it done to me, and besides being blind, its hard to throw a punch with your arms entangled.

[Tasha]

Re: Ars Tactica

 

And nothing about that means it isn't being accomplished by way of grabbing the target's clothes. Judo (a martial art based on grabs) does this all the time.

 

My point is that a grip optimized for holding may not always be optimized for squeezing, hence the 2nd Attack roll requirement.

 

But the problematic thing is that the 2nd attack is only required after the initial phase of being grabbed. On the Phase you first grab someone you can choose to either Throw or Squeeze with no extra attack roll.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Ars Tactica

 

But the problematic thing is that the 2nd attack is only required after the initial phase of being grabbed. On the Phase you first grab someone you can choose to either Throw or Squeeze with no extra attack roll.

 

 

It's only problematic when you consider that the issue is only raised when Steve Long added specifics first in the 4th edition of UMA and later in the original 5e. 4th Edition Hero System doesn't get that specific about the matter at all (only UMA). Arguably, he 'corrected' his special case of regarding the first Phase in 5er and 6e.

[Christopher]

Re: Ars Tactica

 

No one is saying differently. examples of where this could be relevant:

 

(a) Attacker is SPD 3. On Phase 8, he attacks Defender, SPD 4. Defender Aborts to Block and succeeds. Phase 9 comes and goes. Attacker does not act, and Defender took his Phase 9 action in Phase 8. In Phase 12, Attacker and Defender each have a phase. Defender goes first due to the successful block, even if Attacker has a higher DEX.

 

( Attacker and Defender are both SPD 4. On Ph 3, Attacker attacks, and Defender aborts to block, and succeeds. On Ph 6, Attacker attacks, and Defender Blocks again, at -2 since it is the second in the series of Blocks. He succeeds. On Ph 9, Defender moves first as they both have an action and he successfully Blocked in Ph 6.

We were talking about using block against an attacker of higher SPD (in order to get to act first). Not less or equal SPD.

 

But the problematic thing is that the 2nd attack is only required after the initial phase of being grabbed. On the Phase you first grab someone you can choose to either Throw or Squeeze with no extra attack roll.

You don't have to make an extra attack roll, because you already made one - the one to grab him in the first place.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Ars Tactica

 

We were talking about using block against an attacker of higher SPD (in order to get to act first). Not less or equal SPD.

 

Well, if it will make you happier:

 

Attacker is SPD 6. On Phase 2, he attacks Defender, SPD 4. Defender Aborts to Block and succeeds. Phase 3 comes and goes. Attacker does not act, and Defender took his Phase 3 action in Phase 2. In Phase 4, Attacker attacks. Defender is still blocking, so he gets another block, at -2. He succeeds. In Phase 6, Attacker and Defender each get a phase. Defender goes first since he Blocked Attacker in Phase 4.

 

To the extra attack roll after the phase in which the target was grabbed, I think the issue can be interpreted two ways. The first is that the target is grabbed and squeezed in a single attack in the phase grabbed. The attacker now holds the target in a bear hug, and can contuinue to squeeze until the defender breaks free. This was the rule through the early editions - once Grabbed, the target was held and could be Squeezed or Thrown on a later phase with no further roll. But that made Grab very potent.

 

The other interpretation is that the target is grabbed and squeezed in a single attack in the phase grabbed. The attacker now holds the target in a bear hug, but the defender continues to wriggle and squirm, even if he's unable to break free entirely, forcing the attacker to continue shifting his Grab to inflict damage, throw the target, etc.

 

To me, both are valid. Maybe if the defender is otherwise disadvantaged (perhaps Stunned), I would consider handwaving the attack roll, but the odds of missing that attack roll are pretty remote anyway.

[gojira]

Re: Ars Tactica

 

Just for the heck of it, I'll post about something besides Grabs/Squeezes. (Maverick!)

 

Is this legal? Two hand-to-hand combatants are in a melee with each other. One wants to strike his opponent and move away. So s/he declares a Move-By, makes an attack and moves elsewhere on the game map.

 

I'd rule that there's no damage bonus for velocity/movement (acceleration rules say you're not really moving (much?) until after the first hex). And there's a -2 OCV and -2 DCV for the whole maneuver regardless. Plus also strength bonuses are halved. Pretty brutal, but still legal?

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Ars Tactica

 

Just for the heck of it, I'll post about something besides Grabs/Squeezes. (Maverick!)

 

Is this legal? Two hand-to-hand combatants are in a melee with each other. One wants to strike his opponent and move away. So s/he declares a Move-By, makes an attack and moves elsewhere on the game map.

 

I'd rule that there's no damage bonus for velocity/movement (acceleration rules say you're not really moving (much?) until after the first hex). And there's a -2 OCV and -2 DCV for the whole maneuver regardless. Plus also strength bonuses are halved. Pretty brutal, but still legal?

 

Yes, that is completely legal.

 

Better still, use the martial maneuver Passing Strike which does not halve STR, nor does it have OCV and DCV penalties yet still allows a F/move with Move-by like qualities without the attacker taking any damage whatsoever. One of the best martial maneuvers for high velocity characters.

[Christopher]

Re: Ars Tactica

 

Just for the heck of it, I'll post about something besides Grabs/Squeezes. (Maverick!)

 

Is this legal? Two hand-to-hand combatants are in a melee with each other. One wants to strike his opponent and move away. So s/he declares a Move-By, makes an attack and moves elsewhere on the game map.

 

I'd rule that there's no damage bonus for velocity/movement (acceleration rules say you're not really moving (much?) until after the first hex). And there's a -2 OCV and -2 DCV for the whole maneuver regardless. Plus also strength bonuses are halved. Pretty brutal, but still legal?

The acceleration is normally +5m Velcotiy per 1m moved. So on normal HTH-Range (1m) you could still get the bonus from 5m of velcoity - wich will nto get you anythign because of division and rounding.

But of course there is Combat Acceleration - you get your full Speed in 1 meter (but still cannot change velocity by more than you Combat movement/phase).

[Tasha]

Re: Ars Tactica

 

You don't have to make an extra attack roll, because you already made one - the one to grab him in the first place.

 

I KNEW that. You missed the point I was trying to make about already being in control of someone and having to make a to hit roll in the 2nd and later phases of Grabbing someone.

[Christopher]

Re: Ars Tactica

 

I KNEW that. You missed the point I was trying to make about already being in control of someone and having to make a to hit roll in the 2nd and later phases of Grabbing someone.

I didn't.

Hugh already pointed it out: It would make grabs too potent. Sometimes game balance is the only reason you need.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Ars Tactica

 

I didn't.

Hugh already pointed it out: It would make grabs too potent. Sometimes game balance is the only reason you need.

 

I don't buy this justification. Many, many HERO gamers played without requiring additional attack rolls to Squeeze or Throw after a grab for years (decades even) without a problem or a complaint. How come all of a sudden there is this perception of Grab/Squeeze/Throw being unbalanced. I'm throwing the BS flag.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Ars Tactica

 

I don't buy this justification. Many' date=' many HERO gamers played without requiring additional attack rolls to Squeeze or Throw after a grab for years (decades even) without a problem or a complaint. How come all of a sudden there is this perception of Grab/Squeeze/Throw being unbalanced. I'm throwing the BS flag.[/quote']

 

How come there's a perception that STR is underpriced? I think "Grab and do continuous damage" was an aspect of that. And one fairly easy to fix - as the Grabbed target is constantly wriggling to try to escape, you need to roll in each later phase to continue doing damage, throw him, etc. He doesn't have time to wiggle during the one attack action you take to Grab him initially.

 

I do recall, some years ago, running a game with TimeMaster in various cross-temporal versions. One had an AoE SPD drain. The Brick's player was down to, IIRC, SPD 2 when he Grabbed TimeMaster. "HA! Slow me down as much as you want - you're going nowhere!" Even without guaranteed damage, that was a huge advantage to the heroes.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Ars Tactica

 

How come there's a perception that STR is underpriced? I think "Grab and do continuous damage" was an aspect of that. And one fairly easy to fix - as the Grabbed target is constantly wriggling to try to escape' date=' you need to roll in each later phase to continue doing damage, throw him, etc. He doesn't have time to wiggle during the one attack action you take to Grab him initially.[/quote']

 

I never thought STR was underpriced because I always felt the 5pts of STR per D6 of normal damage= a doubling of lifting STR/Pressure was mathematically sound and easy to understand. However I think those who did think it was underpriced believed it was so because of the utility of STR (primary method of attack for a lot of characters) and the number of secondary characteristics it enhanced (PD, Stun, Leaping etc) yes, the utility of Grab is likely a part of that perception, but I never felt that way.

 

I do recall, some years ago, running a game with TimeMaster in various cross-temporal versions. One had an AoE SPD drain. The Brick's player was down to, IIRC, SPD 2 when he Grabbed TimeMaster. "HA! Slow me down as much as you want - you're going nowhere!" Even without guaranteed damage, that was a huge advantage to the heroes.

 

That is one of the few advantages Bricks have over faster, more accurate opponents. It is often hard for Bricks to hit faster characters in combat, as such characters usually have a phase or two more than the Brick, and can utilize these extra phases to mount defenses to prevent the Brick from doing damage. This is as it should be, because most Bricks should be able to lay out other characters in only a couple of hits, so they shouldn't hit as often as other characters. If a character is too fast for the Brick to hit routinely, Grab is a valid tactic. I have no problem with this dynamic.

[Christopher]

Re: Ars Tactica

 

If a character is too fast for the Brick to hit routinely' date=' Grab is a valid tactic. I have no problem with this dynamic.[/quote']

If he is to fast to hit routinely (I think we talk about less Brick OCV < target DCV with defensive Maneuvers) how is goign to hit with a Grab in the first place?

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Ars Tactica

 

If he is to fast to hit routinely (I think we talk about less Brick OCV < target DCV with defensive Maneuvers) how is goign to hit with a Grab in the first place?

2-point CSLs for Grab...