GM vs Player narrative authority

[phoenix240]

Interesting thread on rpg.net and related to Hero System. I was wondering what some of the opinions around here would be.

 

http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?630442-Where-do-you-come-down-on-this-%28GM-vs-Player%29

 

I think I side with gm barring more clarification

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: GM vs Player narrative authority

 

I fall into the "does this actually serve a purpose?" camp.

 

What difference will -3 rather than -2 make to the campaign?

[Ninja-Bear]

Re: GM vs Player narrative authority

 

I'd go with the -2 penalty just to save argument.

[Christopher]

Re: GM vs Player narrative authority

 

The example is wierd.

First the player demands to be "especially drunk", then he hates the penalty? That doesn't adds up.

 

However the penalty is a steep one. It's basically increasing a -20% to a -30%. A 50% increase in the severity. I would be carefull before I increase a penalty in hero, especially as -3 for both is very rare.

[ghost-angel]

Re: GM vs Player narrative authority

 

On the GMs side, Player said Epic, player gets Epic.

 

He's lucky I wouldn't smash a full -5 in Hero Terms on him for Skill Rolls and a full 1/2 OCV, 1/2 DCV for CVs. That's Epic, that's like the video passed around years ago of the man so drunk he could barely walk through the liquor store, and that with help of the furniture.

 

Epic. Means above and beyond.

[Christopher]

Re: GM vs Player narrative authority

 

He's lucky I wouldn't smash a full -5 in Hero Terms on him for Skill Rolls and a full 1/2 OCV' date=' 1/2 DCV for CVs. That's Epic, that's like the video passed around years ago of the man so drunk he could barely walk through the liquor store, and that with help of the furniture.[/quote']

The penalty for beign drunk is on OCV and DCV.

[ghost-angel]

Re: GM vs Player narrative authority

 

I know what the book says. I'm telling you what I would do.

[phoenix240]

Re: GM vs Player narrative authority

 

The penalty for beign drunk is on OCV and DCV.

 

After seeing really smashed people nearly hurt themselves trying to tie their shoes I don't think a skill roll penalty is over the top though.

[Sean Waters]

Re: GM vs Player narrative authority

 

It is not often I side with the player, but I have an affinity with 'drunk'.

 

What happens is this: you win the bar fight. You wake up in a police cell.

 

Seriously: if you get drunk for a good reason you probably are not even drunk, in the 'humorous' manner, and you do not feel ANYTHING. Intoxication is a lot more complex than RPGs give credit for.

 

Never mind rolls, never mind anything but flashbacks: you win the fight.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: GM vs Player narrative authority

 

I got about 6 pages into the thread and couldn't take it any more. I don't think the GM was out of line. I think the player could have explained what he had actually meant by "epically drunk" instead arguing "nuh-uh, the rules say it's only -2". I think since the OP doesn't say how things were resolved or how both parties handled the argument from that point on I don't have enough information to know for sure if the GM was being a douche or if the player was being a whiny rules-lawyer.

 

Side with the GM based on the OP. More information might change that. If they both wouldn't give an inch than they are both being poor sports/players, but I still lean towards the GM.

[SteveZilla]

Re: GM vs Player narrative authority

 

As many in the rpg.net thread stated, I also would side with the GM, yet also ask if it really matters.

[Kevlyn]

Re: GM vs Player narrative authority

 

I'm of the opinion that if I were that GM I would do something along the same lines. I'm not entirely certain the GM wasn't trying to prevent the bar fight with the additional penalties. I'd definitely go that route too, especially if the other players at the table were not entirely enthusiastic about a brawl.

 

But I'm also the kind of player that understands the guy running the game is doing it because he's having fun. If he stops having fun, then he stops running the game. GM's game, GM's decision. If the player doesn't like it, he should go run his own game.

[Xavier Onassiss]

Re: GM vs Player narrative authority

 

If I'm GM and a player pulls a stunt like this, I'll give them a chance to "walk it back" but only in such a way that it's clear to everyone that's exactly what they're doing: wimping out on their original description of how drunk they are.

 

Look, the book says "drunk" incurs a -2 penalty; it doesn't say anything about "epically drunk." Now I'm telling you, that's a -3 penalty. So it's your call: is your character drunk or is he epically drunk?

 

My game, my rules: his character, his decision. Is that fair?

 

 

 

I think the GM wimped out in this case: -3 is NOT an "epically" drunk penalty. It should be -4 or -5; that's what I'd have told the player.

[Nolgroth]

Re: GM vs Player narrative authority

 

No way I am going to read every page in that thread. Where I stand, I would definitely apply the penalty that I think is appropriate. Then I would probably have a whole scene dedicated to when the character wakes up from his inevitable blackout. In this case, blackout could very well mean "recovers consciousness." I mean, a couple of times, it would have been an easy in for me to have a player declare his character gets completely wasted and then starts a bar fight. But then, when I am at the top of my game, I constantly look for hooks and inroads that I can use to exploit for the purpose of story.

[Ninja-Bear]

Re: GM vs Player narrative authority

 

I funny thought struck me. First let me make it clear that I understand where the side with GM are coming from. We pride ourselves in this game that the special effect is seperate from the mechanical effect. We all know that a blast whether its defined as a rock, punch, or ping-pong ball all have the same mechanical effects. Now if we apply this notion to epically drunk, isn't it just a "special effect" of drunk? I can see the player just trying to ham it up or roleplay his drunkeness yet not expecting a harsher treatment for it.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: GM vs Player narrative authority

 

I think there is a difference (or at least could be) between "hamming it up" and playing goofy drunk, and declaring your character is getting crazy trashed, especially when the character was dealing with some trgedy and drinking more than normal. EDIT: Also, the players response wasn't to clarify what he meant, but to plat rules lawyer during a scene focused on his character. Without further info on how exactly the conversation/argument went down I still have to side with the GM.

[Gary Miles]

Re: GM vs Player narrative authority

 

On the GMs side, Player said Epic, player gets Epic.

 

He's lucky I wouldn't smash a full -5 in Hero Terms on him for Skill Rolls and a full 1/2 OCV, 1/2 DCV for CVs. That's Epic, that's like the video passed around years ago of the man so drunk he could barely walk through the liquor store, and that with help of the furniture.

 

Epic. Means above and beyond.

That's pretty much the way I would GM it.

 

The player says Epic, that doesn't mean he gets the basic Mod, it means EPIC.

 

 

Also, so many of the people in that thread seem to have a major HATE-on against GMs. Especially this quote:

Every time someone talks about the GM being "within their rights" I shudder involuntarily.

 

Gary (nightwind1 on RPGNet)

[Nolgroth]

Re: GM vs Player narrative authority

 

Also' date=' so many of the people in that thread seem to have a major HATE-on against GMs.[/quote'] I have noticed that most people that hate GMs came from a school where the GM/Player relationship was very adversarial. This is especially, IMO, the case with D&D and the ilk. For many years, the Gygax school of thought was prevalent in that community.

[Christopher]

Re: GM vs Player narrative authority

 

If I'm GM and a player pulls a stunt like this, I'll give them a chance to "walk it back" but only in such a way that it's clear to everyone that's exactly what they're doing: wimping out on their original description of how drunk they are.

 

Look, the book says "drunk" incurs a -2 penalty; it doesn't say anything about "epically drunk." Now I'm telling you, that's a -3 penalty. So it's your call: is your character drunk or is he epically drunk?

 

My game, my rules: his character, his decision. Is that fair?

I would think that is the best way.

 

 

I would also point to this sentence on the first page:

"I feel this is shifting the goalposts a bit. If the system has drunk and not drunk states go with that.

 

It's rare enough that a player will volunteer for a penalty. Why further penalize this? I reckon it will just make players more wary of showing their characters' vulnerabilities and impede the story.

 

Plenty of drunk people do all right in a fight..." - Post 5

[Ninja-Bear]

Re: GM vs Player narrative authority

 

I have noticed that most people that hate GMs came from a school where the GM/Player relationship was very adversarial. This is especially' date=' IMO, the case with D&D and the ilk. For many years, the Gygax school of thought was prevalent in that community.[/quote']

 

Funny, I thought some of the GM responses reminded as old school D&D. But that could be due to I missed the inflection and it was late last night reading it.

[Gary Miles]

Re: GM vs Player narrative authority

 

I have noticed that most people that hate GMs came from a school where the GM/Player relationship was very adversarial. This is especially' date=' IMO, the case with D&D and the ilk. For many years, the Gygax school of thought was prevalent in that community.[/quote']

The way it looks to me (especially as evidenced by that discussion on That Other Board) is that they dislike the GM having power because their PCs are Special Little Snowflakes, and the player wants COMPLETE control over what happens to them. (Take a look at the discussion in the D&D/D20 subforum on Rolling For Hit Points for more evidence of this.)

 

That and the player in the original Post sounded like a munchkinny Rules Lawyer.

[ghost-angel]

Re: GM vs Player narrative authority

 

Then the players argument should be "I was just using hyperbole, he's just drunk." and not "but the book says...!" You want to argue Special Effect - argue SFX. You want to go into what the "book says" and you can eat your own words, because the book does Not Say "Epically Drunk is a -2 penalty."

[Zane_Marlowe]

Re: GM vs Player narrative authority

 

I'd offer the player a choice very close to Xavier's. Drunk is -2. Epic drunk is -3, but with another 3d6 points of STUN (not CP, just STUN) as a one-off for epicness. Choose your poison.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: GM vs Player narrative authority

 

I wonder whether a player who says his character gets "a bit drunk" would have had a -1 penalty imposed, or the By the Book "Drunk is Drunk" -2 penalty.

 

If there is a range of penalties for being drunk, the book could certainly say that. It gives ranges in other places. I think the decision was taken that "Drunk" is not a common enough, or important enough, game effect to merit a range of possible stages of drunkenness with a range of penalties applied, so a flat -2 was selected. I don't see player or GM having solid moral ground here. I also don't see where an extra -1 penalty in a battle that's clearly not really relevant to the game (in the sense of who wins and who loses being of any long term importance) is worth Player or GM getting upset over it.

 

Narrative control? The GM is OK with the player deciding the character will get drunk (and more drunk), will get into a bar fight, rather than, say, passing out, which is not in the character's control, and not even "spoiling for a fight" - he is assuming narrative control over the NPC bar fighters in deciding there will even BE a fight, but he's not OK with the player wanting the penalty he apparently expected and planned into by having his character get drunk (epically or otherwise)?

 

The more I think on it, the more I think the argument would have ended quickly, and not spawned a multi-page debate anywhere, if EITHER GM or player chose to be reasonable.

 

NO - I said -3 and the GM`s word is final. FINAL!

 

NO WAY - the book says it`s -2 and you`re not saddling me with an extra -1 for a completely meaningless battle. THE BOOK SAYS!

[Gary Miles]

Re: GM vs Player narrative authority

 

This is my opinion:

 

HERO System is specifically a GAME DESIGN TOOLKIT. It's a kit for the DM and/or players to tailor the game to THEIR specifications, and it SPECIFICALLY lays a lot of the game on the GM. Many, many things in the HERO System rules are listed "GM's Discretion", and even if some rules AREN'T labeled "GM's Discretion", the official assumption is the GM is allowed and encouraged to make judgement calls.

 

That's what GM's do- they make JUDGEMENT CALLS.