GM vs Player narrative authority

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: GM vs Player narrative authority

 

The book is a starting point' date=' not necessarily the last word. If the GM is given a sound reason for raising or lowering a modifier, he's justified in using his own judgement. Having pointed out that his character is more drunk than usual, there's no reason not to take the player at his word, and assess a higher penalty. That's called [i']making a ruling[/i], which is the GM's job. The underwater fighting example is pointless without more information; is there any reason to think the ground rules would change? If not, then it isn't relevant to this discussion: we're talking about the GM ruling on the player's own description of his character's actions here, not some completely arbitrary GM @$$-pull with no justification.

 

Oh, that water's deeper than the expected underwater combat, so the higher water pressure imposes the larger penalties (since there's no way I'll just admit I misremembered the actual penalties in the book or let the player get away with challenging that villain's getaway my plot anticipates).

 

I don't consider it "the GM's job" to decide the rules as written aren't generally good enough. There's no magic to "oo that's extra drunk so I'll amp the penalty" any more than the player saying "I was only a little drunk so I should only take a -1". The GM's job is to run a game that's enjoyable for all the players. I wonder how much enjoyment the other players got watching the player and GM argue over an extra -1 penalty over a scene that had no real importance anyway.

 

The fact that the player was arguing for no good reason doesn't excuse the GM for derailing the game over an irrelevancy.

[Xavier Onassiss]

Re: GM vs Player narrative authority

 

Oh, that water's deeper than the expected underwater combat, so the higher water pressure imposes the larger penalties (since there's no way I'll just admit I misremembered the actual penalties in the book or let the player get away with challenging that villain's getaway my plot anticipates).

 

I don't consider it "the GM's job" to decide the rules as written aren't generally good enough. There's no magic to "oo that's extra drunk so I'll amp the penalty" any more than the player saying "I was only a little drunk so I should only take a -1". The GM's job is to run a game that's enjoyable for all the players. I wonder how much enjoyment the other players got watching the player and GM argue over an extra -1 penalty over a scene that had no real importance anyway.

 

The fact that the player was arguing for no good reason doesn't excuse the GM for derailing the game over an irrelevancy.

 

So, the GM makes a ruling based on remarks the player volunteered, the player decides to argue with him, but the GM is the one "derailing" the game?

 

I'm done here.

[phoenix240]

Re: GM vs Player narrative authority

 

How much do we know about the situation? Did the game get derailed. Was the fight "important"? If it was utterly unimportant why where they even rolling it out?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: GM vs Player narrative authority

 

So' date=' the GM makes a ruling based on remarks the player volunteered, the player decides to argue with him, but the GM is the one "derailing" the game?[/quote']

 

No, the player and the GM together are derailing the game. Neither is entirely to blame and neither can claim to be blameless. I thought I had said, several times, that neither enjoys any form of moral high ground that I can see.

 

How much do we know about the situation? Did the game get derailed. Was the fight "important"? If it was utterly unimportant why where they even rolling it out?

 

The rules say that a drunk or intoxicated character is at -2, no further details or caveats. (this is actually a Hero System example, -2 OCV and DCV but the actual system is not the important thing)

 

The player states that their character has gotten epically smashed due to going through a a major crisis. He then proceeds to get into a bar fight.

 

The GM says, OK you got epically smashed so I'm gonna make that a -3 penalty.

 

Player states it's unfair due to the clear indications in the rules. GM says the rules are only a broad outline and he is making a more fine-grained distinction. After all, there are levels of intoxication.

 

Where do you stand and why?

 

And, looking at it, we've added a lot to the initial scenario. There is no indication how long the argument lasted, nor how or if it was resolved. I know I had the impression the player had announced the character was getting epically drunk AND getting into a fight, but the post does not say the fight was the player's idea. Given the bar fight would appear tough to stage without the initial "PC goes out and gets drunk" decision, it seems to me that the fight remains pretty unimportant, though.

[Ninja-Bear]

Re: GM vs Player narrative authority

 

I think you were right. As the GM' date=' you define the world and what's possible. You'd already been a flexible in allowing the VPP (which are GM's discretion anyway). And I gather you were up front with the restriction and rules of you world from the beginning? So, no, I don't think you were being a jerk.[/quote']

 

I agree. If you were upfront then thems the rules.

[Ninja-Bear]

Re: GM vs Player narrative authority

 

The questionI have then. Is there an anything that a GM does that a player can question?

[phoenix240]

Re: GM vs Player narrative authority

 

A player can question anything a gm does and vice versa. Its how you do it and why that makes a difference,

[ghost-angel]

Re: GM vs Player narrative authority

 

A player can question anything a gm does and vice versa. Its how you do it and why that makes a difference' date='[/quote']

 

This.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: GM vs Player narrative authority

 

A player can question anything a gm does and vice versa. Its how you do it and why that makes a difference' date='[/quote']

 

From the scenario set, the player is questioning something the GM does. We don't know the 'why'. The post doesn't provide a ton of 'how' (we can read it to be a whine in the tone and an accusation the GM doesn't know the rules, is railroading the players or whatever, or we can read it as a polite difference of opinion, or we can read it as the GM taking a "my way or the highway" attitude to a simple player question.

 

I think the answers may say more about our preconceived notions and biases (ie what we read into the situation) than about the answer to the actual situation presented.

[Laundry Knight]

Re: GM vs Player narrative authority

 

How much do we know about the situation? Did the game get derailed. Was the fight "important"? If it was utterly unimportant why where they even rolling it out?

 

There is a huge difference between questioning and complaining. As I recall from the original example, the player was complaining at the GM for his call and not questioning why the GM made the call.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: GM vs Player narrative authority

 

Is the OP unbiased? For all we know the "complaining" was simply asking "I thought drunk was only -2" or perhaps, like so many posters here say he should have done the player simply trying to clarify what he had meant and the GM responded confrontationally. We just don't know. I only read the first 6 pages, but the OP never gave more details at that point, despite multiple requests. Personally, without knowing either person's motives or attitude, I stick with the GM giving a -3 is not unreasonable, but everything after that is pure speculation.

[Sean Waters]

Re: GM vs Player narrative authority

 

Can I suggest we all meet up and work out exactly what the penalties should be in a practical manner?

[Ninja-Bear]

Re: GM vs Player narrative authority

 

A player can question anything a gm does and vice versa. Its how you do it and why that makes a difference' date='[/quote']

 

I agree. I just want to point out that I feel it would be fair if everyone was on the same page before the game starts. Not to pick on Ghost Angel, but to using his statement of "he did anything but use the rulebook" (paraphrased), if I was a player, I would like to have known that up front. I believed that could save some misunderstanding down the road.

[Ninja-Bear]

Re: GM vs Player narrative authority

 

Can I suggest we all meet up and work out exactly what the penalties should be in a practical manner?

 

For me, I've adopted a rule of thumb based of the additional manuevers you can do with grab from the Ultimate Martial Artist books. Most of them involves a -2 OCV and perhaps a characteristics roll. Iirc, using grab to move the opponents body is -2 OCV and STR vs STR. So if I don't know the penalty off-hand, I just go to that, -2 OCV perhaps additional skill roll (though I have waived it because of the strength difference) and ask the player is that fair? And I keep the action flowing.

[Sean Waters]

Re: GM vs Player narrative authority

 

For me' date=' I've adopted a rule of thumb based of the additional manuevers you can do with grab from the Ultimate Martial Artist books. Most of them involves a -2 OCV and perhaps a characteristics roll. Iirc, using grab to move the opponents body is -2 OCV and STR vs STR. So if I don't know the penalty off-hand, I just go to that, -2 OCV perhaps additional skill roll (though I have waived it because of the strength difference) and ask the player is that fair? And I keep the action flowing.[/quote']

 

 

I was going to suggest that we all get together, have a drink and play darts, but that works too

[Sean Waters]

Re: GM vs Player narrative authority

 

...or pool. Pool is a good example. I am useless if I'm sober as I overthink it, but I informed by those who can remember that I become much more competent after a few pints. Willie thorne was much the same with snooker, and of course Hurricane Higgins...

 

Am I coming across as an alcoholic?

 

Good!

[Laundry Knight]

Re: GM vs Player narrative authority

 

I admit in my drinking days I was better at somethings when at least sporting a buzz than when I was dead sober. Approaching attractive women come in mind, but I am not sure how anyone could channel this into a game mechanics since everyone's reaction to inebriation is different, and from my own, "field research" neither advantages nor disadvantages had any kind of consistency, as in coming off like James Bond one time and like Jerry Lewis the next. A GM may be justified in being arbitrary when a character is self-portrayed as being drunk.

[Sean Waters]

Re: GM vs Player narrative authority

 

I admit in my drinking days I was better at somethings when at least sporting a buzz than when I was dead sober. Approaching attractive women come in mind' date=' but I am not sure how anyone could channel this into a game mechanics since everyone's reaction to inebriation is different, and from my own, "field research" neither advantages nor disadvantages had any kind of consistency, as in coming off like James Bond one time and like Jerry Lewis the next. A GM may be justified in being arbitrary when a character is self-portrayed as being drunk.[/quote']

 

 

Ah, but then the dice will add a decent dose of arbitrary in any event

[Martin2]

Re: GM vs Player narrative authority

 

I was going to suggest that we all get together' date=' have a drink and play darts, but that works too [/quote']

 

How about a 4x4 ride off road along a set tricky route and counting the number of dents received after 1, 5, 10 etc units of alcohol?

 

I don't own a 4x4 by the way (and would not try this in the first place ).

[Greywind]

Re: GM vs Player narrative authority

 

It was recorded in the historical documents of WKRP that Johnny Fever's reaction times improved with the amount that he drank.

[SteveZilla]

Re: GM vs Player narrative authority

 

It was recorded in the historical documents of WKRP that Johnny Fever's reaction times improved with the amount that he drank.

 

That's a superpower and not normal.

 

(guessing at the costs - at work without rulebooks)

5 Life Support: Immunity to Alcohol (might be optional)

5 Lightning Reflexes +10 - Only While Intoxicated, Progressive with Level Of Intoxication(-1/2)

[Doc Democracy]

Re: GM vs Player narrative authority

 

...or pool. Pool is a good example. I am useless if I'm sober as I overthink it' date=' but I informed by those who can remember that I become much more competent after a few pints. Willie thorne was much the same with snooker, and of course Hurricane Higgins...[/quote']

 

Examples of System1 versus System 2 thinking. Good book about it reviewed in the Guardian. There was also an interesting article about it in a recent PC Pro...

 

Doc

[Ninja-Bear]

Re: GM vs Player narrative authority

 

Ah' date=' but then the dice will add a decent dose of arbitrary in any event [/quote']

 

How about Luck 3D6 only when drinking?

[Laundry Knight]

Re: GM vs Player narrative authority

 

There used to be GURPS supplement that worked out mechanically what the affects of drinking. I wish I still had my GURPS books. It would be interesting to convert that to Hero.

[Barwickian]

Re: GM vs Player narrative authority

 

Good grief. 17+ pages on this at rpg.net. 7 pages here.

 

The answer seems obvious to me: refer to your social contract. If the group has agreed that GM interpretation carries stronger weight than player interpretation in this particular game, then the GM is in the right. If not, I'd give then benefit if the doubt to the player.

 

If you game without discussing the social contract, this is the kind of mess you get yourself into (long-established groups tend to develop their own social contracts over the years, even without explicit discussion).