Homing

[phoenix240]

Mutants and Masterminds has an advantage called "Homing" that can be purchased for attack powers. It means the power will continue to attack after its initial launch until either it strikes, is somehow dispelled or makes a number of attempts equal to the times Homing was purchased for the power. Once the power is set up the character is free to do whatever they want,including make other attacks on the same or different targets. How could you model this effect in Hero System?

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Homing

 

Personally I like to do it using continuous uncontrolled (requires attack roll every phase, ends when attack is successful). You make the attack, pile in the amount of END necessary to keep it going multiple phases and it will keep attacking until it actually hits or runs out of END.

 

Doc

[Christopher]

Re: Homing

 

Mutants and Masterminds has an advantage called "Homing" that can be purchased for attack powers. It means the power will continue to attack after its initial launch until either it strikes' date=' is somehow dispelled or makes a number of attempts equal to the times Homing was purchased for the power. Once the power is set up the character is free to do whatever they want,including make other attacks on the same or different targets. How could you model this effect in Hero System?[/quote']

The onyl way is to make the attacks self-acting:

The default way is to "summon" the missile, energyball or whatever you have as attack (wich is built as an automaton with kamikaze attack).

Another way is APG II advanced Focus rules. They allow you to build a focus that acts on it's own.

 

The uncontrolled idea is a way (and could be adapted to continuing charges). But it's hard to guess what would be balanced. After all, the missile on your tail can force you to abort to dodge.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Homing

 

We have discussed Homing before and came to a lot of different conclusions - as usual!

 

One straightforward way is to build a single new advantage "Always Hits", which I think we pegged at around +1 (has to have some way to avoid it - based on NND and/or accurate AoE). Then, if you don't want the hit to be automatic, add limitations, for example "Requires a roll to hit but gets 4 goes at it on your phases": -1/4.

 

It requires a custom modifier, which is dirty, but is a nice straightforward calculation, which is clean.

[JohnTaber]

Re: Homing

 

Personally I like to do it using continuous uncontrolled (requires attack roll every phase' date=' ends when attack is successful). You make the attack, pile in the amount of END necessary to keep it going multiple phases and it will keep attacking until it actually hits or runs out of END.[/quote']

 

I like this method.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Homing

 

The problem with Homing is that it inevitably involves quite hefty advantages, meaning the attack is either expensive, heavily limited in other areas or not very effective. You are probably best off doing it by, well, cheating a bit:

 

Buy +6 OCV with an attack (12 points), build the attack with 'Physical Manifestation' and Limited power "Takes 1 to 3 phases to hit" -1/2

 

Basically you attack and roll to hit (at +6!) then you roll 1/2d6 to see how long it TAKES to hit and becaue the attack has a physical manifestation it can be destroyed before it hits if you are able to, well, hit it.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Homing

 

I like this method.

 

Why, thank you kindly Mr Taber. Appreciated.

[Beast]

Re: Homing

 

Vehicle w/AI and a trigger

could be part of a summon

the thing is you need to figure what kind of ranges you want this to work at

[Christopher]

Re: Homing

 

Vehicle w/AI and a trigger

could be part of a summon

the thing is you need to figure what kind of ranges you want this to work at

Why the Trigger?

[Beast]

Re: Homing

 

In general a head to head engagement once the range starts to open up it is too late

 

Take the U.S.A.'s anti missile program

An ICBM reentering the atmosphere is going around 14,000 mph while the interceptor is only going at 2000 mph

a tail chase will never happen

Also due to the turn and move mechanic of hero system once you end your movement you need to wait for your next turn

Trigger allows an oppertunity to detonate out of turn

with the amount of distance traveled in 1 phase and in general the way missiles move using a 1/2 move then detonate would be out off the question

going to mega scale does not work as the explosion is in normal scale

the interceptor can get into position and as the ICBM over flys it the interceptor goes boom not needing to have a waited move

It is called a proximity warhead

[Christopher]

Re: Homing

 

a tail chase will never happen

Afaik so far we talked about a missile that keeps attacking if it misses once, until either fuel runs out or you give it a fake target. At least that is what the OP says.

For the ICBM system that would be a stupid advantage. That one should invest points is a really good +OCV and Range PSL, not a homing advantage, not to make additional attacks it never has a chance to execute.

 

Also due to the turn and move mechanic of hero system once you end your movement you need to wait for your next turn

What are you talkign about?

Nothing in the rules says you need to end your movement after a turn. Turn Mode only defines that you need to move a certain amount of meters before the next turn (you need to make a 180° turn over the time of three 60° Rules Turns, or 2/5 of your total movement).

 

Trigger allows an oppertunity to detonate out of turn

with the amount of distance traveled in 1 phase and in general the way missiles move using a 1/2 move then detonate would be out off the question

What about Move through? What about holdign a phase?

 

Take a look at the Intercept and Dogfight Optional Rules in APG I 188.

[Beast]

Re: Homing

 

1 I used an ICBM as an example

the missile can only keep attacking if it has enough speed to over take it's target and that can be quite a bit when moving at Non-combat velocities

 

2 I should have used phase instead of turn (it was as a unit of time and each having it's turn)

I was refering to once the missile completed it's phase of movement it cannot explode(move through would still need a trigger if it made contact to use anything above it's velocity damage ie it's warhead)

At NCM velocities you only get 2 60 degree turns per phase that is a phase and a 1/2 to get turned around you will need to be a bit faster than the target

 

3 what kind of velocities are you talking about

Missiles tend to do only full moves and ramming you get it in some horrendous negative OCV mods the faster you go

At NCM your OCV is 1/2 and any levels are halved also and at -1 per 10m of velocity it adds up quick

Go with a moveby it is a flat -2

right now in the real world pretty much only torpedoes turn and try to reengage a target as they have the endurance(up to 45 minutes run time)

speed advantage 40 to 80 knots vs sub 30 to 42 knots(Russian Alpha being the fastest)surface ship up to 80knts for some hydro foil ships

The super cavatation torpedoes are not homing but super fast(200 kts)

If they have a homing capability it is to drop a payload off that operates at a lower speed

 

 

 

Afaik so far we talked about a missile that keeps attacking if it misses once, until either fuel runs out or you give it a fake target. At least that is what the OP says.

For the ICBM system that would be a stupid advantage. That one should invest points is a really good +OCV and Range PSL, not a homing advantage, not to make additional attacks it never has a chance to execute.

 

 

What are you talkign about?

Nothing in the rules says you need to end your movement after a turn. Turn Mode only defines that you need to move a certain amount of meters before the next turn (you need to make a 180° turn over the time of three 60° Rules Turns, or 2/5 of your total movement).

 

 

What about Move through? What about holdign a phase?

 

Take a look at the Intercept and Dogfight Optional Rules in APG I 188.

[Christopher]

Re: Homing

 

1 I used an ICBM as an example

the missile can only keep attacking if it has enough speed to over take it's target and that can be quite a bit when moving at Non-combat velocities

By your own acord, the Anti-ICBM is exaclty not what the OP wants. He wants a "attack that keeps attacking, until it hits or has made a pre-determined number of tries". He called this Advantage "Homing", wich may or may not have anything to do with the Military term.

 

I was refering to once the missile completed it's phase of movement it cannot explode(move through would still need a trigger if it made contact to use anything above it's velocity damage ie it's warhead)

At NCM velocities you only get 2 60 degree turns per phase that is a phase and a 1/2 to get turned around you will need to be a bit faster than the target

Then this is a good argument to built the Anti ICBM in a way that it does not needs NCM itself

And with a big enough AoE that the Velocity DCV of the ICBM is countered (it it is even used with AoE vs. Megascale).

And "smart" enough to hold a half-phase at the right time (the phase before it would overshoot).

[Beast]

Re: Homing

 

1 the big question for the OP is the What kind of ranges do you want?

How fast is it's the target ?

Does the weapon need to see it's target first or can I just drop it in the area and let it search for it target?(Bearing only launch)

 

2 Players have only so many points to play with,the GM should play near those guidelines also

If points do not matter on both sides the it is moot

Missiles like I said do not change speed in the real world and would not "wait a 1/2 phase

More likely it will just follow after the target moves if both are the same speed

Trigger just makes the missile even smarter as it does not need a 1/2 move to wait

It also allows the explosion to go off should the target fly close enough to set it off

the easy set up is "If Then Or"program "If target comes with in 16m(largest setting for 1/4 area explosion)arm self" "Then detonate on contact" "Or Detonate if target is about to move outside of 16m radius"

 

You should note that going mega scale will cause a lot of collatteral damage

My options would be to fly close to you or your base and use your own foolishness against you and set deflectors to double rear

 

 

 

By your own acord, the Anti-ICBM is exaclty not what the OP wants. He wants a "attack that keeps attacking, until it hits or has made a pre-determined number of tries". He called this Advantage "Homing", wich may or may not have anything to do with the Military term.

 

 

Then this is a good argument to built the Anti ICBM in a way that it does not needs NCM itself

And with a big enough AoE that the Velocity DCV of the ICBM is countered (it it is even used with AoE vs. Megascale).

And "smart" enough to hold a half-phase at the right time (the phase before it would overshoot).

[Christopher]

Re: Homing

 

1 the big question for the OP is the What kind of ranges do you want?

How fast is it's the target ?

Does the weapon need to see it's target first or can I just drop it in the area and let it search for it target?(Bearing only launch)

Actually no. This was never a question. The question is "how do you get it to keep attacking?".

 

The "how to built that a Missile needs time to hit target" question was never asked by anyone but you.

 

Missiles like I said do not change speed in the real world and would not "wait a 1/2 phase

Yes, missiles in the real world do not use HERO system game mechanics. But neitehr does the ICBM, the Missile Base or the Person hitting the button on either end. So the argument is moot.

 

You should note that going mega scale will cause a lot of collatteral damage

Nice to know. The only who ever sugested it was you and you did it to rule it out. So yes: I know you can't use megascale. Or at least not on Full Scaling (you are aware that you can just Scale 1M = 10m for +1/4, right?).

[Beast]

Re: Homing

 

! and I said build as a vehicle w/ and AI and a trigger , pretty much the simplest answer with out having to invent anything like a new advantage or limitation

you are the 1 who questioned it and started this whole thing

I get the impression if anybody does not follow you lock step is doing it wrong and that thinking in it self is wrong when using the Hero System

There is no 1 right way there are many

I just depends on which road you wish to take to Rome

 

2 no but if you know how those things work you can make them work together(real world stuff using the Hero System and I do, ever play SPI's Air War)

 

3 you are the one that brought up mega scale

I said to use a trigger for the explosive warhead(which most missiles have and is what does the damage ,not ramming it)

Trigger in this case is a 1/4 advantage(it never needs to reset and would be miniscule compared to OIF,1 charge never recovers, real weapon)

 

also going below 1km is an OPTION not the rule(which by the way I was not allowed to use in a game on HC)

 

4 A zombie would pretty much fit the description ask for only it does not explode unless it is a Boomer from Left 4 Dead

 

 

Actually no. This was never a question. The question is "how do you get it to keep attacking?".

 

The "how to built that a Missile needs time to hit target" question was never asked by anyone but you.

 

 

Yes, missiles in the real world do not use HERO system game mechanics. But neitehr does the ICBM, the Missile Base or the Person hitting the button on either end. So the argument is moot.

 

 

Nice to know. The only who ever sugested it was you and you did it to rule it out. So yes: I know you can't use megascale. Or at least not on Full Scaling (you are aware that you can just Scale 1M = 10m for +1/4, right?).

[Querysphinx]

Re: Homing

 

My house rule is that HOMING is a +1/2 advantage. Roll to hit as normal. If the homing attack misses, it tries again on the firer's next phase. (The OCV remains the same, range penalties = how many the attack missed by the first time: usually best to buy levels vs. range penalties to counter this. ) If it misses the second time it ends as usual. The number of additional attacks doubles for each additional +1/4 advantages. This attack is inherently indirect, attacking from whichever direction it missed by last time.

[Alex Williamson]

Re: Homing

 

I like Querysphinx's solution best so far. This type of weapon would inherently be a "fire and forget" type, so really, it should have no range penalty. I think that advantage still exists (I think it was a +1/2 adv).

[Beast]

Re: Homing

 

This is 1 way

Not my way, but hey if it works for QuerySphinx more power to you

Repped

 

My way is more that I don't use a house rules as I mostly play on HC so I use what is universal to all

 

If I was on the receiving end of that I'd go for a 1/2 move to put something between it and me to run into

 

My house rule is that HOMING is a +1/2 advantage. Roll to hit as normal. If the homing attack misses' date=' it tries again on the firer's next phase. (The OCV remains the same, range penalties = how many the attack missed by the first time: usually best to buy levels vs. range penalties to counter this. ) If it misses the second time it ends as usual. The number of additional attacks doubles for each additional +1/4 advantages. This attack is inherently indirect, attacking from whichever direction it missed by last time.[/quote']

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Homing

 

You could easily use Megascale. 1 Hex Area Accurate, Megascale. It will hit one target in the Megascaled area. Add in Sean`s Physical Manifestation, and provide the attack with a limitation that it can only get X closer to the target each phase of SPD Y and we now effectively have an attack moving on a SPD of its own to get the target.

[Beast]

Re: Homing

 

I see that as only getting closer to the target w/ the SFX of missing till it gets down to the same scale

the SFX looks like it but you really only have 1 attack roll

How could you spoof it?

 

you would have to spoof the launcher not the missile

 

 

You could easily use Megascale. 1 Hex Area Accurate' date=' Megascale. It will hit one target in the Megascaled area. Add in Sean`s Physical Manifestation, and provide the attack with a limitation that it can only get X closer to the target each phase of SPD Y and we now effectively have an attack moving on a SPD of its own to get the target.[/quote']

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Homing

 

You'd have to destroy the physical manifestation before you get hit.

[Lucius]

Re: Homing

 

Homing (Naked Advantage): (Total: 22 Active Cost, 11 Real Cost) Trigger (Activating the Trigger requires a Zero Phase Action, Trigger resets automatically, immediately after it activates, Trigger can expire (it has a time limit), Misfire; +1/4) for up to 60 Active Points of Attack Power, Constant (+1/2) (22 Active Points); 2 Continuing Charges lasting 1 Turn each (-1) (Real Cost: 11)

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary wants to stop that pigeon

[Christopher]

Re: Homing

 

3 you are the one that brought up mega scale

Umm, nope:

going to mega scale does not work as the explosion is in normal scale

 

also going below 1km is an OPTION not the rule(which by the way I was not allowed to use in a game on HC)

Please take a look in your book, Base Rules of Advantages, "Choosing a lesser Effect".

Both my 6E book and my 5E Player Creation Handbook have as an example like this:

"Buying MegaScale to increase 1m to 10,000 km, but defining it as 1m = 3,500 km instead".

Not an option of megascale. It's a basic rule about how to buy advantages.

 

You could easily use Megascale. 1 Hex Area Accurate' date=' Megascale. It will hit one target in the Megascaled area. Add in Sean`s Physical Manifestation, and provide the attack with a limitation that it can only get X closer to the target each phase of SPD Y and we now effectively have an attack moving on a SPD of its own to get the target.[/quote']

6E1 341 says: "Generally speaking, a MegaArea power shouldn’t have the Selectiveor NonselectivePower" And this goes doubly for acurate.

Aoe Acurate + Megaarea is just a try to make the attack unavoidable. And unavoidable attacks are prohibited in general, as are one against wich no defense exists.

[Christopher]

Re: Homing

 

Back to the original Problem:

In addition the the Automaton Approach, the new Optional Focus Rulesh in APG II 115 has the "Expanded Focus Rules". replace/fold a lot of heroic Limitations (real Weapon, Heavyness of Armor) into the Focus Limitation.

 

On APG II 119 there are rules for "Self-controleld Foci". They are experimental and require the expanded Focus Rules but are designed to replace Automatons for things like Self-Guided Missiles. Basically you build an "Automaton light".

Self Controleld Foci require a full phase to orient after activation (the same way summons and Duplicates do).