Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

[Pattern Ghost]

I'm telling you that IMDB isn't a geek community. Are you telling me it is?

 

ETA: I don't really care about the thread drift, but if you put a note on your links, we could identify which ones are related to the original topic, and which are more general. I find the link dropping without comment to be annoying.

[Outsider]

"...the best way to allow dirtbags to fester is for the rest of us to do nothing"

 

So what am I supposed to do?

 

Really, I want to hear what my part is in solving the problem of women not stepping up and rating TV shows on IMDB in sufficient numbers to "balance out" men's ratings of them.

 

Rating a show is an allowed function for anyone who registers an account.   

There's no fee to register.

There's no "comment" function associated with the ratings that one can get attacked in for how they rated a show.

People can't even tell who gave any individual rating.

It is about as "safe" as is possible.

 

Are men supposed to just shut up and disappear?  What?

[Sociotard]

I think that, in scientific terms, this presents a Sampling Error.  The IMDB sample skews male, and critics point out that this may affect the results, as males may have a different opinion than females.

 

This does not mean that the male portion of the sample should curl up and die, nor even that they should STFU.

 

This does not mean that IMDB did something wrong.

 

This does not mean the ladies need to step up their game.

 

It could be statistically useful to see breakdowns of what sort of people voted which way. Maybe.

 

Or, at the minimum, it could be a way to apply a "corrective lens" of sorts. So if I see a woman-heavy film does only mediocre on IMDB, I might remember that they skew Male, and the movie might be better than reported.

[Outsider]

if you click on the number of votes below the rating, it gives you a breakdown by gender, age brackets, and US/Rest of World.

[Enforcer84]

"...the best way to allow dirtbags to fester is for the rest of us to do nothing"

 

So what am I supposed to do?

 

Really, I want to hear what my part is in solving the problem of women not stepping up and rating TV shows on IMDB in sufficient numbers to "balance out" men's ratings of them.

 

Rating a show is an allowed function for anyone who registers an account.   

There's no fee to register.

There's no "comment" function associated with the ratings that one can get attacked in for how they rated a show.

People can't even tell who gave any individual rating.

It is about as "safe" as is possible.

 

Are men supposed to just shut up and disappear?  What?

 

Well in this particular area, I doubt there's anything one can do, so I apologize if I came off implying that you could. I'd certainly not suggest you start voting for things you've never seen or disliked. You're correct the article wasn't dealing with a standard comment section style witch hunt. I've been wrong before, I'll probably be wrong again. 

 

But then again I wasn't really singling this story out. I was talking about the greater thread discussion which you were upset at the direction you see it taking and I was not agreeing with you.

 

To answer yours and Pattern Ghosts "IMDB isn't a geek community thing," however, I'm gonna disagree. I'd say the article has as much merit as a jumping off point for discussion as any of the others. Film nerds are still nerds. In fact considering the way we've come to using the term I'd say you could use the term sports geeks as well, but that's neither here nor there. 

[Cancer]

Sounds like the nerd/geek tag is just about bankrupt, then, and it should be abandoned entirely. Might as well replace it with any flavor of fandom, including explicitly all the classical show biz fandoms ... mainstream movie, music, and theatre fans ... who were always socially acceptable up to some point (they fed into the show biz glamour and society dreck, which the entertainment industry cultivated shamelessly) and who historically went to some lengths to ostracize the military history and RPG fans.

 

That may be what's jarring: being included by accusation with what I (and I presume others here) have always considered as them, a population segment I had no intersection with, and whom I always considered to be privileged persecutors. (Why was it OK to be able to recite every movie James Dean appeared in, with role, dates, directors, etc., but it was a sign of social deviance -- and reason to be pushed out -- to be able to name all the division commanders at the Battle of Gettysburg? Damfino, but it was.)

[Pattern Ghost]

To answer yours and Pattern Ghosts "IMDB isn't a geek community thing," however, I'm gonna disagree. I'd say the article has as much merit as a jumping off point for discussion as any of the others. Film nerds are still nerds. In fact considering the way we've come to using the term I'd say you could use the term sports geeks as well, but that's neither here nor there. 

 

I suppose I could have been making a wrong assumption that the people who rate things on IMDB are more of a general audience than an enthusiast one. But this is the internet, so I won't be entertaining the idea that I could have possibly erred.

 

I do see some film geek level discussion comments on listings, but I also see a lot of dumbassery, so I'm not sure where the general population lies.

[Enforcer84]

I suppose I could have been making a wrong assumption that the people who rate things on IMDB are more of a general audience than an enthusiast one. But this is the internet, so I won't be entertaining the idea that I could have possibly erred.

 

I do see some film geek level discussion comments on listings, but I also see a lot of dumbassery, so I'm not sure where the general population lies.

Oh I could be way off base. 

Honestly, I still see the internet as home of the nerd. Beyond finding things like showtimes and actors or sports scores, the interactive portion of the internet I still (perhaps very erroneously) view as the place where the pop culturally obsessed hang out. 

 

And movies, tv, music, etc on the internet is an offhanded tropes comment away or negative review (or positive one) away from an inferno of vitriolic hatred. And as much as I'd like to believe it's a very vocal minority, as I get older I see the minority growing. There's no age/economic/religious/ethnic/cultural barrier to the crap heaped at one another, and I suppose much of it actually crosses some barriers - like overlooking (for the moment) your disdain for someone's ethnic background to gang up on someone else. 

 

...I'm wandering off point.

 

I could be wrong. My slice of the internet is not the whole thing. 

[Cygnia]

Geek culture isn't 'broken,' but it does have a harassment problem

 

In his latest thinkpiece on Birth Movies Death, geek culture critic Devin Faraci argued that "Fandom is Broken." Bringing together the Ghostbusters reboot controversy, HYDRA Captain America, fanboy death threats, and a bizarre critique of romantic fanfiction, he describes a community ruined by the zealotry of "entitled" fans.

 

Except none of these examples are remotely comparable, representing different issues from different corners of fandom. Criticism is not the same as entitlement. Death threats are not the same as social media activism. And death threats aren't purely the realm of disgruntled fans sending hate mail to creators; harassment is a broader issue of sexism and bigotry online.

[Sociotard]

This is more of an example than an article on the subject.

 

 

TLDR: she didn't grow up on geek culture, and now she watches and reviews things for the first time.  In a gutsy move, she said she didn't like Blade Runner out loud (while female).

 

The thing is, while part of her problem was clearly an expectation problem (like the disgust you feel biting into a raisin cookie you thought was chocolate chip, she thought the movie was long and boring because she was expecting an action flick) she did have some reasonable points (Rick Deckard is a boring protagonist).

 

What is not surprising, is that the comments section isn't talking about her reasonable points. It's mostly calling her names, many of a sexist nature.

 

Super gutsy though. That movie is a geek sacred cow.

[Outsider]

My sister never read Lord of the RIngs, saw the movie, and said it had a lot of cliches.  

[ghost-angel]

She has a point, since last fall I've rewatched a couple 'classic' movies that played way better in my memory of what they were, than they did on the screen.

 

Mad Max: this is a Sloooooowwwwwwwww film. Like, practically dead in pace. My Memory: CARS & MOTORCYCLES EVERYWHERE!

 

Blade Runner: not quite as slow, but it takes a while to spin up, and really does show its age.

 

The thing about a movie like Blade Runner is that it is a classic only within the context in which is first existed; through a historical eye it is an above average movie (except the part where the voice over was dropped in, that was a bad idea) with some decently relevant themes for an emergent internet-age concept. William Gibson watched the movie and said that was almost exactly how he pictured the Sprawl... for better or worse it, like a lot of Cyberpunk, is firmly a thing of its time.

 

So while I love the movie, because I came out of that era (I was a kid when it was released, but it still had impact on the sci-fi movies I would end up seeing as I grew a little older); I think she's right, it shows its age, spins up slowly, and ultimately, is not that interesting to anyone who isn't either a PKD fan or was older than 4 for most of the 80s.

[Lucius]

My sister never read Lord of the RIngs, saw the movie, and said it had a lot of cliches.

Classics are what CREATE clichés. In other words, it wasn't a cliché when Tollkein wrote it.

 

edit: But aren't we getting way off topic? I think the point was how many trolls jumped in with misogynist comments, and how unjustified that is regardless of the merits of that person's critique?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

And a classic palindromedary

[ghost-angel]

http://kotaku.com/teenage-girls-are-playing-video-games-you-just-might-n-1724547085

 

The number of young women playing video games is not only a significant market factor, but they're almost completely invisible within.

 

The article doesn't do a lot of speculating; but the numbers are alarming as to the number of girls who play vs the number who actually vocalize that. Given everything else in our culture, I'll (probably correctly) speculate it's because the second a woman voices the fact that she is a woman she is immediately and relentlessly attacked in almost every single case. From simple incredulity to out right threats.

 

It's more than a little frightening to think how our society treats women. Especially within a community that already believes itself marginalized.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Part of it might be their parents not wanting them to talk too much online for fear of attracting stalkers and creepers?

 

I also wonder how this translates to adult age female gamers. If it is a much larger percentage that talks online it may indeed be a parental factor thats keeping them silent.

[Cancer]

I would be surprised if that were the case, given what I hear from students on campus, who are out from under parental supervision (some quite recently), and who seem far more careful about their identities than their male cohorts.

[ghost-angel]

I seriously doubt it's a parental factor. In fact, given the number that don't even want other people in the room with them I doubt some parents even know their daughters play either.

 

Every single female video gamer I know has been harassed when they make it known they're female online in games. Without fail. From "I can tell by your voice your a fat B----" to actual threats, and sexual harassment. Every. One.

 

Anecdote is not Data. But that's alarming to me. That a dozen friends can't use mics in games with strangers because of constant threat of harassment.

[Cygnia]

I play male toons on WoW.  I have been harassed for being a woman online when I had to use chat (not with my current guild thankfully).

[Cygnia]

 

The 6 Dumbest Excuses Game Makers Gave For Excluding Women

 

[ghost-angel]

The excuses are so ... misogynistic and they can't even stop back peddling long enough to see it.

[NuSoardGraphite]

I would be surprised if that were the case, given what I hear from students on campus, who are out from under parental supervision (some quite recently), and who seem far more careful about their identities than their male cohorts.

I say that because while I have two boys (both of whom my wife doesnt want them chatting online while gaming, but they are quite young still) i have several friends with young teenage daughters who either game or interact online through social media. Their parents keep a very tight rein on who they chat with online. Some of whom wont let their daughters voice chat at all. So my thought immediately went to parental control when this subject was brought up.

[ghost-angel]

I think that's going to be a factor in some of the test group. But the study was over 1400 kids of both genders. That's not going to be a factor amongst most of them, I don't believe.

 

On the other hand, our society systematically tells girls to be constantly on the look out for dangerous boys, basically teaching all women that men are psychotic predators waiting to rape and murder them at every turn. So, you know, it could be the parents.... I doubt it's just that though.

[Cygnia]

First female teen to win Ohio masonry competition bumped from national contest

 

Judges in the masonry program, a field usually dominated by men, originally awarded Clifford first place by a whopping 72 points.

Larry Moore, her instructor, said the scores of the top performers usually vary by only a couple of points, but Clifford’s column for the state competition was exceptional.

“She had the best plumb there,” Moore said. “Two or three corners were perfect.” Plumb refers to how straight a vertical edge is.

Stan Jennings, superintendent of the Scioto County Career Technical Center, was notified by SkillsUSA Ohio that Clifford would no longer be competing. A vague explanation was given: “The scores were inappropriately put in.”

....

The state group said Clifford is allowed to keep the gold medal she won in Columbus.

“If they allow me to keep my award, they should allow me to keep my place,” she said.

[Cygnia]

You’re Not “Awkward” With Women. You’re Just Creepy

 

Comicpalooza has come and gone, and though I consider myself an investigative journalist, I spend most of the convention looking solely for the bright spots in geek life. It’s my little annual vacation away from staring at the swollen and badly infected parts of pop culture. Sometimes just being a fan is more important than being a critic.

That said, watching dudes fumble for words when engaging with attractive women in cosplay is perhaps the saddest thing I have ever seen. It happens a lot, and it seemed especially prevalent this year when the sweltering heat wave was a perfect excuse to cosplay as the most skimpily dressed of characters (If I could pull off Leelo from Fifth Element, I’d have been right there with you). It’s an old cliché that geeks, meaning men, can’t talk to women. The word “awkward” comes up a lot.

However, I’ve noticed that “being awkward” has become this weird shield for guys to excuse behavior that is way closer to creepy, harassing and downright rapey. They act as if “never learning how to talk to girls” is some sort of mental disability the rest of us should be tolerant of rather than a conscious choice on their part not to bother considering the feelings of others when they speak.

[Pattern Ghost]

OK, those were some primo examples of creepy.