How do you work gaining Package Deals during game?

[Paradox]

I’ve searching through the forums to see if this was addressed. I found some topics that were close but nothing that fully satisfied me. So I’m reaching out to see what other people have come up with.

 

I’m running a Modern Urban Fantasy game. It has a combination Dresden Files, World of Darkness, Supernatural, and Anita Blake feeling to it. So I have psions, mages, vampires, lycanthropes (different species), fae, sprits, etc. The players are starting out human but may at some point become more. I have no objections to one being turned into a vampire, suddenly becoming a lycanthrope (It is passed on by the parents, not a disease) or learning magic.

 

The problem I’m running into is adding package deals to current player characters. Adding a package always runs the disadvantage total over the min and adds the extra points to the base character. I’m just curious on how other people have handled package deals and how they are added to a character during the game. IE do you just add the package and adjust the min and max disadvantage totals for the character or do you have some other way you track it.

 

Thanks for the help.

[Ternaugh]

Re: How do you work gaining Package Deals during game?

 

Usually, a character doesn't get points for Disadvantages after a campaign starts. For example, a character that runs afoul of the FBI during play might be Hunted by them, but there won't be any points given. Alternatively, if a Disadvantage no longer fits, it may be swapped for another (or bought off) with GM permission.

 

My advice would be to have the character purchase the requisite skills/powers, and then write down the Disadvantages at 0 points (or swap for Disadvantages that do not now apply).

 

JoeG

[Paradox]

Re: How do you work gaining Package Deals during game?

 

That was one option I was looking at. I'm working on the package deals for my HD program and that seems to be the only way to get the disadvantages not to add. I have not figured out how to have the program exclude disadvantage points over the max.

 

BTW were still using 5th edition revised.

 

Does anyone else handle thing differently?

[IndianaJoe3]

Re: How do you work gaining Package Deals during game?

 

That was one option I was looking at. I'm working on the package deals for my HD program and that seems to be the only way to get the disadvantages not to add. I have not figured out how to have the program exclude disadvantage points over the max.

 

You can use a Custom Adder to reduce the cost of the Disadvantage to 0.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: How do you work gaining Package Deals during game?

 

I would let the player replace an old disadvantage/complication with the new one, myself.

[Christopher]

Re: How do you work gaining Package Deals during game?

 

Usually, a character doesn't get points for Disadvantages after a campaign starts. For example, a character that runs afoul of the FBI during play might be Hunted by them, but there won't be any points given. Alternatively, if a Disadvantage no longer fits, it may be swapped for another (or bought off) with GM permission.

 

My advice would be to have the character purchase the requisite skills/powers, and then write down the Disadvantages at 0 points (or swap for Disadvantages that do not now apply).

That are the two basic way's to deal with "gaining Disadvantages in play".

 

I would propably go for the last. As long as the total does not decrease without XP-expending/loss of powers the characters can develop however they please.

 

Of course I would only transform the player (permanently) into a vampire if he wanted to and had the points to buy the abilites/buy down the total of disadvantages.

Overall I would not bother too much with what the templates say. They say only what every average person fo that group has. I can understand that you take things like "becomming Vampire" a little bit more serious. But overall the only constant with heroes is that they break the rules - Blade is a Daywalker Vampire for example.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: How do you work gaining Package Deals during game?

 

Call it a "radiation accident".

 

I don't know if the phrase still appears in the Champions book, but a radiation accident was Aaron Allston's term for a major change in a character. The idea was that a character could either save up a bunch of experience points or have the GM save off a few each session, and when enough were saved then all at once they're spent on something. Usually it's a basic change or rewrite in the character, like say when Angel (X-men) got his wings chopped off and replaced with cybernetics.

 

I'm not sure I'd do it to a player character unless that's what they wanted, and had the points to spend on it. But if a player wants to become a vampire or werewolf or whatever, and has the points to spend on it, then sure, why not?

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: How do you work gaining Package Deals during game?

 

Another option would be to periodically raise your Disadvantage limit for the campaign. This represents a new "chapter" to your saga, one where the enemies are tougher and the danger is greater and thus the characters use the new Disadvantage points to increase their character to match with the new challenges they are about to face. This is also a good point to do character re-writes. Not sure how much you should increase the Disad/complication points by at the beginning of a new chapter...maybe by 5, 10 or 15 points (at most) depending on how naughty the characters were in the previous chapter and by how much crap is about to hit the fan.

[Paradox]

Re: How do you work gaining Package Deals during game?

 

Thanks for the responses everyone. I think i'm going to use the packages as is without adding disadvantage points, But let the players have the option of trading out disadvantages with some on the package deal if they make sense for the template. So far it seems to be going fairly well and seems pretty balanced.

[Sean Waters]

Re: How do you work gaining Package Deals during game?

 

I don't know what the package deals for vampires and lycanthropes and such are in your game but I imagine that they involve increased characteristics and powers.

 

The difficulty with adding a 'lycanthrope' template to an existing 'vampire' (or any other) character is that you get a sudden hike in power. It may be that is what you do. You allocate XP to chacacters but require that they samve some or all of it for this sort of power hike.

 

You could also potentially mitigate the increases (added Vampire STR may be +10 and added lycanthrope STR may be +20, for example) by having a 'lycanthropic vampire' template you can overlay.

 

Some genres would say that the two are incompatible anyway, but that is clearly not the direction you want to go, which is fine. My only concern is balance between player characters. I would not have any worries about adding Complications/Disadvantages in play - again so long as everyone winds up on similar totals, it should be fine. Be aware though that a 200 point character with 100 points of complications is not the same as a 150 point character with 50 points of complications: the former is potentially much more powerful, so you really do need to balance complication totals as well as character point totals.

[Sean Waters]

Re: How do you work gaining Package Deals during game?

 

If you have templates for the various combinations things could get interesting.

 

Assuming you have 3 basic 'types' - Vampire, Werewolf, Mage, that gives you seven possible combinations (V/W/M/VW/VM/WM/VWM). If you had 4 (add in Skilled Human, or just Skilled (S)), you get: V/W/M/S/VW/VM/VS/WM/WS/MS/VWM/VWS/VMS/WMS/VWMS, or 15 templates. I would be inclined to stop three as the progression become prohibitive.

 

You might NEED to do something like that because I can see some interesting interactions: for example I imagine that werewolves are, at times, out of control and so probably not able to use mage powers, so that combination would have to be built with lockouts. Vampire Mages might find it more difficult to use magic as they do not have a ready supply of life energy (being dead and all) and so on.

[casualplayer]

Re: How do you work gaining Package Deals during game?

 

Lots of different ways. I generally try to make packages as close to a net zero cost as I can, benefits - drawbacks. If the player doesn't have the cost up front they can owe me. You also don't have to allow newly transformed characters full access to all of their abilities, having them gain skill and access at about the rate they pay xp.

 

If points get in the way of your story, choose the story.

[Christopher]

Re: How do you work gaining Package Deals during game?

 

The difficulty with adding a 'lycanthrope' template to an existing 'vampire' (or any other) character is that you get a sudden hike in power. It may be that is what you do. You allocate XP to chacacters but require that they samve some or all of it for this sort of power hike.

He never talked about that. He was still on the "adding Vampire or Lycantrophe Template to human durign play"-phase.

 

Lots of different ways. I generally try to make packages as close to a net zero cost as I can' date=' benefits - drawbacks. If the player doesn't have the cost up front they can owe me. You also don't have to allow newly transformed characters full access to all of their abilities, having them gain skill and access at about the rate they pay xp. [/quote']

Just to make certain we are on the same point:

While 5E package deals were written up to imply that, you do not substract the Complciation points from cost for powers/characteristics.

Complications are added normally, without granting any free points. And powers have to be bought at the normal CP cost, with no reduction for the additional Complcaitions.

The only way to actually save points would be to sell back other stuff.

[Orion]

Re: How do you work gaining Package Deals during game?

 

For years and years I hated package deals and refused to use them. As I understood them, they were basically bonus points for taking stuff the players might not want, but should have taken anyway. So, just a way to convince players to keep to the character concept. I felt that if a player needed to be bribed, they weren't worth having in the group.

 

Within the last year, I've started to see them differently. I don't give any points for them (as I pretty much ignore points to start with), but use them as a required list of stuff a character must have to be in that group. Want to join the City Guard - here are their requirements. Get lycanthropy - here's the list of powers and disads you just gained. Etc. I don't worry if the character has the points or not, as it is something they get because of the storyline.

 

If it something the character would want to get rid of, like lycanthropy, then I play up the disads so it doesn't seem a power boost, and the rest are just glad it wasn't them that got it. If it is something the player would want to keep (awakened psionics), then it would need to be accepted by the group before I would even give it out. Some players would be fine, because they know they'll get theirs soon, while others don't care if character abilities are equal or not, Either way, the player would have need to give me some indication ahead of time that their character could be changed before I'd do it.

 

And then there are the players that need all characters to be roughly equal, and would be upset if one character got something, and they didn't. This is one of those things that need to be covered in the pre-game. If some in the group just don't like the idea, then the only time it happens is when a new storyline is starting, and everyone gets points, does a rewrite, or starts a new character.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: How do you work gaining Package Deals during game?

 

For years and years I hated package deals and refused to use them. As I understood them, they were basically bonus points for taking stuff the players might not want, but should have taken anyway. So, just a way to convince players to keep to the character concept. I felt that if a player needed to be bribed, they weren't worth having in the group.

You don't, and never did (EDIT: at least in 5E, I guess I can't speak to earlier editions), get "bonus points" for taking package deals in the first place. You spent points on the Powers and abilities and took the Disadvantages as part of your standard Disadvantages. The fact that for some reason a lot of people simply could not grasp that is part of why the term "Template" is now used in 6E, but they function the exact same way.

[Greywind]

Re: How do you work gaining Package Deals during game?

 

Except in the first package deals you got more than you actually paid for.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: How do you work gaining Package Deals during game?

 

Define "the first package deals". Are you talking about first edition Champions? How did you "[get] more than you actually paid for"?

[ghost-angel]

Re: How do you work gaining Package Deals during game?

 

You don't' date=' and never did, get "bonus points" for taking package deals in the first place. You spent points on the Powers and abilities and took the Disadvantages as part of your standard Disadvantages. The fact that for some reason a lot of people simply could not grasp that is part of why the term "Template" is now used in 6E, but they function the exact same way.[/quote']

 

Sort of...

 

In 4E and before if you spent X Points you got a reduction on the "Package Cost".

 

If you had 12 points worth of Abilities in the Package Deal you got a Package Bonus 2 Points (meaning it reduced the cost of the Package by 2 points). That coupled with the fact that Disadvantages straight subtracted from the Package Cost, you could get a host of abilities for 0 Points. It was also never explicit that the Disadvantages counted towards the character's normal Disadvantages, and thus, most groups (at least all the one's I played with) didn't. You could have many many more points in Disads due to this...

 

5th Edition fixed a lot of the nonsense.

 

6th Edition removed all the nonsense.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: How do you work gaining Package Deals during game?

 

I did edit my post to indicate I couldn't comment on pre-5E. Seems you must of quoted me before I finished editing.

 

EDIT: Although I'm not sure that even matters unless the OP is using 4E or previous...

[ghost-angel]

Re: How do you work gaining Package Deals during game?

 

I did edit my post to indicate I couldn't comment on pre-5E. Seems you must of quoted me before I finished editing.

 

EDIT: Although I'm not sure that even matters unless the OP is using 4E or previous...

 

I did. It doesn't

 

As for working Package Deals in mid game: Buy the parts as they make sense, if there's a 'signature' aspect (like a License or a Perk signifying being a part of whatever the Package stands for) buy that last.

 

Disads/Complications acquired are done so the way you would for any Disad/Complication acquired during play. Sometimes this means switch them out with no long applicable ones, sometimes you just get more Complications (we call this part Story).

[Greywind]

Re: How do you work gaining Package Deals during game?

 

Sort of...

 

In 4E and before if you spent X Points you got a reduction on the "Package Cost".

 

If you had 12 points worth of Abilities in the Package Deal you got a Package Bonus 2 Points (meaning it reduced the cost of the Package by 2 points). That coupled with the fact that Disadvantages straight subtracted from the Package Cost, you could get a host of abilities for 0 Points. It was also never explicit that the Disadvantages counted towards the character's normal Disadvantages, and thus, most groups (at least all the one's I played with) didn't. You could have many many more points in Disads due to this...

 

5th Edition fixed a lot of the nonsense.

 

6th Edition removed all the nonsense.

Steve didn't like the "something for nothing" aspect. About the same time they stopped being "deals".

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: How do you work gaining Package Deals during game?

 

Also, as of 5e, all Disadvantages are worth a multiple of 5 points, and there aren't any modifiers that halve the value (thus putting you into a spot where you could end up with one getting you back, say, 13 points).

[Orion]

Re: How do you work gaining Package Deals during game?

 

Steve didn't like the "something for nothing" aspect. About the same time they stopped being "deals".

 

Yep, that was my problem as well. And yes, I am using primarily 4th edition, as Ive never upgraded. I'd like to, but play so little these days it just isn't worth it to me.

[dmjalund]

Re: How do you work gaining Package Deals during game?

 

Steve didn't like the "something for nothing" aspect. About the same time they stopped being "deals".

So instead we say that Skill X is worth zero points because it never comes up in the game

[psyber624]

Re: How do you work gaining Package Deals during game?

 

Gaining anything mid game can be problematic for your players, (note that "gaining" Complications isnt really a gain, I'm talking about things that make a player worth more points.) If they all gain something or similar, you can use the wonderful wand of GM powers to just give it to them ("BAM! your all vampires, here is you new set of powers, just make sure they knew this was coming and agreed to it before hand or your likely to have upset players.) If only one person is gaining something then that affects player balance and alot of players are going to be upset with this.

 

Of course at the end of the day, its a game. If you and your players want to play in a world like this then you can simply allow it to work like that. The new 6E rulebooks mention this sort of thing REPEATEDLY. You, as GM, just state that in your game players may become more powerful through gaining one of these templates (as they are now known). I highly recommend you make sure your players are on board with this kind of a game, but if they are it sounds like it might be alot of fun, just make sure that a character that gains such power doesn't totally overshadow the rest of your players.