San Angelo - Your input

[Pattern Ghost]

Originally posted by Agent X

Thanks Pattern Ghost. I take back all those things I said about you.

 

Since they're probably based on things I put in print, I guess that I'm fair game.

[Gold Rush Games]

Originally posted by Pattern Ghost

This is bull. You were given good input. If you don't want to look at valid criticism, don't publish. It's that simple. If it's in print, it's up for criticism, whether you have feelings or not.

Hey, feel free to start another thread about what you think bites about SACoH. That doesn't bother me. It's not about whether or not I want valid criticism. It's about staying on topic and giving your opinion instead of what you think someone else's opinion is. That's all.

 

I thought I stated my position pretty clearly. Apparently not. My intent is not to get anyone's back up.

 

I'm sincerely interested in knowing what fans want to see in SACoH2E. I have always listened to the fans. I am a fan myself (of HERO System). I doubt if anyone who has known me for any length of time would think otherwise.

 

I have also expressed appreciation for the comments that have been made. I'll leave that at that.

[Gold Rush Games]

Originally posted by Agent X

I've asked my friend I've known for and gamed with for over a decade what he thought of San Angelo but I'll let him speak for himself. He goes by the Superskrull since you don't like supposition or anecdotes.

Great! I look forward to reading what he has to say.

 

As to unnecessary criticism, bashing, negativism, "making stuff up to pad a post," and "trying to impress upon me how crappy our book is," wow! Are you sure you're not being thin skinned about this?

I can see where it might appear that way. Perhaps "impatient" is a better descriptor. In either case, I'll extend my apologies.

 

My constructive criticism involves less than 15% of the content in your book so I'm not really sure how you get the idea that I think it's crappy.

I'm not sure why you think that I think that you think it's "crappy." That's not what I said at all. To reiterate, if you dislike anything about SACoH then please feel free to tell me all about it. If it's something you think your friend thinks, then that info is less important to me. That's all. There's no reason for you to get upset just because I value your direct opinions more than what you think your friend might feel.

 

Personally I think there's been some miscommunication and that the mole hill is growing quickly. Let's just put this part of the thread to rest and focus on how we can improve, SACoH. Deal?

 

...I think your attitude is crappy. I'm a potential customer who you asked to give constructive criticism. If you disagree with my constructive criticism there are more polite ways to move on than to explain to me that my criticism is not constructive or that I'm being "negative."

You're free to vote with your dollars. If you want to miss out on a fantastic product because you don't see eye to eye with me, that's your right.

 

Much criticism is negative so I find this highly unfair.

You are putting words into my mouth and have apparently misread my comments. Perhaps you should re-read my explanation. And then if you still feel the need to disagree, that's fine. Perhaps we can take it to private mail so that this thread can remain on topic.

 

I never expected you to agree with anything I said.

Well, for the record, I have actually agreed with most of what you said.

 

I did expect a less condescending, less dismissive, less passive/aggressive post from a professional. This is your business after all, you need to be able to remove your feelings from a topic when you ask for constructive criticism.

I have not responded to any constructive criticism in this forum with anything less than stated appreciation.

 

Frankly, I think you just lost at least one customer.

That's a shame.

[Pattern Ghost]

Originally posted by Gold Rush Games

Hey, feel free to start another thread about what you think bites about SACoH. That doesn't bother me. It's not about whether or not I want valid criticism. It's about staying on topic and giving your opinion instead of what you think someone else's opinion is. That's all.

 

I don't know who you're addressing that to, since you're quoting me. I haven't given any criticisms of SA. I own a couple of the first edition books. I haven't finished reading them.

 

As to not giving someone else's opinion, bull. AgentX gave HIS opinion, and put in a one paragraph comment that he thought that those same things which were his observations were likely the cause for his friend's giving him the book. I'd think it'd be of interest if a) an informed reader gave you feedback and if people were giving away your product b/c they didn't like it for whatever reason. The friend may not have liked the books because the ink smelled funny or he doesn' t like words with vowels in them for all we know. Doesn't mean that he didn't give away the book.

 

I thought I stated my position pretty clearly. Apparently not. My intent is not to get anyone's back up.

 

Then quit defending a weak position. You got your back up at AgentX's criticisms, which is totally inappropriate. You used one paragraph in that to attack him, and accuse him of padding up his post. That's ill-mannered. You got backs up because of your poor manners. A good critique doesn't attack the author, it addresses the work. That's what you got. What you returned was an attack on the critiquer. That's rude when you asked for opinions in the first place.

 

I'm sincerely interested in knowing what fans want to see in SACoH2E. I have always listened to the fans. I am a fan myself (of HERO System). I doubt if anyone who has known me for any length of time would think otherwise.

 

I don't know you, and you haven't shown any sincerity behind this comment. Your line developer, a regular member of the community, came on and asked for opinions on the product. They were given. To him, not you. Your posts have been defensive to start with, and your reply to AgentX's criticisms was over the top.

 

I have also expressed appreciation for the comments that have been made. I'll leave that at that.

 

You should just leave it, IMO. If your attack on AgentX shows your "appreciation" for somone giving you critical feedback, then that's a pretty sorry example.

[RPMiller]

To get the topic back on track:

 

1) I've noticed that the vast majority really likes the city and its detail as a whole, but the NPCs in the back of the book leave them dry. True?

2) The NPCs throughout the book are great, but folks would like to see them developed even more. Yes?

3) Folks want to see more Heroes that are intertwined with the city, but still in the background. Correct?

4) Everyone wants the city to be advanced several years. On track?

 

Now a question, do folks want all the details of the city to be kept in the book, or do you want all different stuff? In other words, should we expect everyone to buy the first book to get the information contained therein and put all different information in the second book?

 

Thank you, everyone, for your feedback thus far. Whether positive or negative, it is feedback and I am listening and taking everything you are saying to heart. Thanks!

[Gold Rush Games]

Originally posted by Pattern Ghost

I don't know who you're addressing that to, since you're quoting me.

Whoops. My bad.

 

and if people were giving away your product b/c they didn't like it for whatever reason.

The friend may not have liked the books because the ink smelled funny or he doesn' t like words with vowels in them for all we know. Doesn't mean that he didn't give away the book.

I never once suggested that I didn't believe the friend loaned his book out. That was never brought into question.

 

Assumptions on one person's part are not facts that I weigh heavily in this gathering of feedback. Now, if the friend had actually told someone that they gave up their copy for specific reasons and then those reasons were stated, that would be second-hand but I would consider those comments a lot more worthwhile than assumptions.

 

Your line developer, a regular member of the community, came on and asked for opinions on the product. They were given. To him, not you.

So, as the publisher and original co-developer of SACoH I should have no interest in this discussion? Okay.

 

In terms of the rest of the inaccurate statements and mischaracterizations of my comments I'm choosing not to reply any more. This argument is really becoming tiresome. It appears that some people simply want to assume the worst and argue on end about something that amounts to a misunderstanding about a relatively trivial issue. If anyone else wants to continue this ridiculous argument, please do so in private mail. I can be reached at mark@goldrushgames.com .

 

I would ask that folks intersted in helping us shape the future of SACoH via suggestions and comments to Rob concerning SACoH2E continue to do so. We sincerely do value our fans' input.

[Storn]

Originally posted by RPMiller

To get the topic back on track:

 

1) I've noticed that the vast majority really likes the city and its detail as a whole, but the NPCs in the back of the book leave them dry. True?

2) The NPCs throughout the book are great, but folks would like to see them developed even more. Yes?

3) Folks want to see more Heroes that are intertwined with the city, but still in the background. Correct?

4) Everyone wants the city to be advanced several years. On track?

 

Now a question, do folks want all the details of the city to be kept in the book, or do you want all different stuff? In other words, should we expect everyone to buy the first book to get the information contained therein and put all different information in the second book?

 

Thank you, everyone, for your feedback thus far. Whether positive or negative, it is feedback and I am listening and taking everything you are saying to heart. Thanks!

 

First off, I think Agent X has given excellent critiques of the things he didn't care for. I think you need to listen to his persuasive arguement. He didn't pad his message as far as I can tell... he cared SO much about the topic, he spent considerable time detailing his support for the difference between Freedom City format of showing NPCs and SA (and by default, a lot of the Champions stuff...4th or 5th ed).

 

My opinions on the questions above:

1) The *SUPER* NPCs of SA don't leave me cold, but I can see why others might feel that way. I'm a special case, I drew them. I always invest emotionally in any character I draw... it is just the way I operate (and why so many characters in my games are doodled). I do feel, though, that is a place for some room to improve. I think this can be done w/o overshadowing the incoming PCs. I think one REAL easy and psychological way is to make them less points (300 pts). Bam, instant support status!

 

2) Here is the hard part; Tell more with less. Every word has to count. Every illo has to count. If you can do the ol' tighten up... then you will be looking at a fantastic product. Yes, I'm asking you to write at the level of Busiak on Astro City.... or Robinson's Opal City of Starman a few years back.... I'm asking for the best of the best. Aim for the top... there is no reason not to. And really self-promoting and egotistical: I think I have the passion and the skill to bring at least some of the illos to that level... how's that for hubrus?

 

3) I think that is the consensus. Again, I point you to Robinson's Starman...where Opal City was a living breathing entity... and wonderous things lurked in on the edges. Even more than Astro City. I think a few Paranormals who aren't heroes or villians, who are doing jobs is a great idea. A Living Latern doing night road construction. A man who doesn't need to breath being a police diver. A duplications girl who is her own law office (forms in triplicate? no problem.). A speedster who is a bike messenger (with a really expensive tough bike from Cannondale or someone to put up with all that pounding... I know, cause I'm an ex-bike messenger from NYC). A precog taxi driver, always knows who is calling for a cab several blocks away, even before they do. Stuff like that. Integrate superpowers into the very fabric of society.

 

4) I think the suggestion of advancing SA a few years from the last ed is brilliant. I think its a chapter.... I don't think you should make newcomers to Hero/GRG buy the old one. I think it is a chapter at the beginning of the book... and then you go thru every word of the old book and update where it fits and is required.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by RPMiller

1) I've noticed that the vast majority really likes the city and its detail as a whole, but the NPCs in the back of the book leave them dry. True?

I would like to see characters which are not as similar to the Champions and who are not just filling out archetype slots. The characters should be unique both in origins and power designs. The USPD has added thousands of new power combinations. There is nothing wrong with seeing some of them in print.

 

2) The NPCs throughout the book are great, but folks would like to see them developed even more. Yes?

I would like to see them have a life within the city itself, as opposed to just getting mentioned.

 

3) Folks want to see more Heroes that are intertwined with the city, but still in the background. Correct?

Yes, the NPC heroes should be part of the city, but the players should always get center stage, IMO.

 

4) Everyone wants the city to be advanced several years. On track?

I do not mind seeing the timeline advanced.

 

Now a question, do folks want all the details of the city to be kept in the book, or do you want all different stuff? In other words, should we expect everyone to buy the first book to get the information contained therein and put all different information in the second book?

I personally thinks that SA:CoH2 should take this opportunity correct flaws from the first book and should consider itself to be a whole new universe. Thus I think you should keep all the old material in the book, but change it for any potential problems and add additional timeline information. And then reintroduce is as San Angelo, not as a changed San Angelo, or as an updated San Angelo. Just as San Angelo as it will be from this point forward. That way no one needs to spend time trying to find and convert older material; especially the gamers who do not plan on using the HERO System.

[TheQuestionMan]

Looking forward to it .

 

Originally posted by RPMiller

 

 

1) I've noticed that the vast majority really likes the city and its detail as a whole, but the NPCs in the back of the book leave them dry. True?[/b]

1) Yes very dry , I wish you luck updating them and making them more attractive too use .

2) The NPCs throughout the book are great, but folks would like to see them developed even more. Yes?[/b]

2) A good idea , but their stories should match the change to San Angelo . Some shouldn't change at all . ( Especially the Developer guy . Conflicts and vendetta with supers definitely )

3) Folks want to see more Heroes that are intertwined with the city, but still in the background. Correct?[/b]

3) Always a good thing . Like DareDevil's territory is Hells Kitchen and Batman's is Gotham . ( The Hangman's is the Hill and etc... ) Don't forget a few visits from other supers ( Heroes and Villians , the Bad and the Good )

4) Everyone wants the city to be advanced several years. On track?[/b]

4) Yes , definitely . To keep everything up to date and to add your own take on the SA:CoH setting .

5)Now a question, do folks want all the details of the city to be kept in the book, or do you want all different stuff? In other words, should we expect everyone to buy the first book to get the information contained therein and put all different information in the second book?[/b]

5) That depends on all the changes that take place . If their huge then the original content is lost . An SA:CoH Update would satisfy me , because I have the old edition . A new SA:CoH would get the review and then maybe purchased if I'm happy with it and would allow new buyers a full introduction to the best city/setting around .

Thank you, everyone, for your feedback thus far. Whether positive or negative, it is feedback and I am listening and taking everything you are saying to heart. Thanks! [/b]

Your welcome and we look forward to your updates and requests for imput .

 

QM

[RPMiller]

Re: San Angelo - Your input

 

Thank you for your replies. I am still looking for the answers to my original post. So please comment on them as well. Here they are as a reminder:

 

With all the new hype and interest in the San Angelo line, I wanted to pick your brains and get some feedback. A while ago I ran a poll asking who had heard of San Angelo and who was using it.

What I would like to know is:

[*]For those of you who use it, why?

[*]For those of you that own, but don't play in the world, why?

[*]For those of you that looked at, but decided it wasn't for you, why?

[*]For those of you that haven't seen it, are you going to look into it now, and why?

[*]For those of you that have no interest in looking at it or using it, why?

[/list=1]

Feel free to be as brief or detailed as you want. Again, if you would rather not post publicly, shoot me a private message or email.

[SuperPheemy]

I'm in the "haven't looked at it but will." category.

 

By reason primarily is the very positive reviews of first ed. It's given me a lot of interest in the setting.

 

Second, you guys are local boys to my area, gotta support the "home team".

 

To answer an earlier question, I'd like to see you write the book for an audience that has never seen it before. It's been six years since first ed came out, which is a loooong time in this industry. A lot of new gamers and gamers new to super hero roleplaying have entered the market. Three of your four supported systems were developed after the release of SA first ed.

 

That being said, I'd give the game a mix of old and new material, take the best of the old, those things that your opinion and fan feedback have proven to be "definitive" for San Angelo, and polish 'em up. Then add any new material that you've come up with that really excites you.

 

Take to heart the commentary regarding detail. That seems to be what makes SA different from most other supplements on the market. Run with it.

[Gold Rush Games]

Originally posted by Storn

First off, I think Agent X has given excellent critiques of the things he didn't care for. I think you need to listen to his persuasive arguement.

Don't assume that I'm not, gang. I agree (yet again) that many of the comments and suggestions were good one, and they are appreciated. I commented on but one of the things in his post. The rest of it isn't being ignored, I assure you. Perhaps I should have stated that explicitly in my reply.

[Pattern Ghost]

Originally posted by Gold Rush Games

 

 

So, as the publisher and original co-developer of SACoH I should have no interest in this discussion? Okay.

 

I wasn't clear there. I didn't complete the thought. I was referring to the fact that you jumped in after the first few responses, acting defensively, when those responses were simply board members being friendly to another board member. Of course you have an interest in the discussion. It's the fact that you've been acting childish and defensive through most of it that I was referring to. Sorry for not being clear. Posting late at night and all that.

 

In terms of the rest of the inaccurate statements and mischaracterizations of my comments I'm choosing not to reply any more. This argument is really becoming tiresome. It appears that some people simply want to assume the worst and argue on end about something that amounts to a misunderstanding about a relatively trivial issue. If anyone else wants to continue this ridiculous argument, please do so in private mail. I can be reached at mark@goldrushgames.com .

 

I would ask that folks intersted in helping us shape the future of SACoH via suggestions and comments to Rob concerning SACoH2E continue to do so. We sincerely do value our fans' input.

 

Good. Don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out. You've been an insulting prig in regard to that post and you haven't offered anything resembling an apology. When you can take solicited criticism, come back.

[Pattern Ghost]

Re: Re: San Angelo - Your input

 

Originally posted by RPMiller

 

What I would like to know is:

[*]For those of you who use it, why?

[*]For those of you that own, but don't play in the world, why?

[*]For those of you that looked at, but decided it wasn't for you, why?

[*]For those of you that haven't seen it, are you going to look into it now, and why?

[*]For those of you that have no interest in looking at it or using it, why?

[/list=1]

Feel free to be as brief or detailed as you want. Again, if you would rather not post publicly, shoot me a private message or email.

 

 

2. I own it but don't play it. Namely, because not all of my players have it and I'm running a PBEM. I'd give serious consideration to using it for a game where all of the players had access to it.

[Agent X]

I would like to put this behind me but I'm still trying to figure out how there has been some miscommunication. (Gold Rush Games' excerpted statements are in quotations.)

 

1. "Some people are very quick to point out negatives, even reaching to the point of stating assumed negatives. I truly appreciate each person taking the time to post comments on this thread. But developers have feelings, too, you know."

 

This was in response to one of my posts. It seems pretty plain to me that you feel I have been unduly negative and that I have upset you in some quantifiable way.

 

2. "What would help us more, I think, instead of telling us what you think your friend dislikes about the old book is to tell us what you would see as a positive in the 2nd Ed. book."

 

Considering that my comments about my friend were mainly part of friendly banter near the end of a post that was by and large concerned with constructive criticism using examples and comparisons I had made I have a hard time understanding why you spent so much time on this. It felt like you were miffed and felt the need to get back at me by building a straw man. Incidentally, I'm giving you constructive criticism Mr. Miller asked for. I'm not in the mood for you to establish the ground rules for how I do that as you're not paying me anything to do this.

 

3. "I don't claim that your comments were worded poorly or rudely. I'm just not interested in supposition, per se. It feels like unnecessary bashing and criticism and it's a bit distracting to me."

 

There that word "feel" crops up again. I have no earthly idea why you would react this much to a "supposition" (that was confirmed in a phone conversation with my friend without me "leading the witness") that essentially recognized that one person didn't find what he was looking for in San Angelo. This isn't unnecessary bashing or unnecessary criticism. Heck, you need to know why the people who don't buy your book choose not to as much as why people do buy the book.

 

4. "I am looking for constructive criticism and honest input from the fans. But I prefer direct input."

 

So I'm to assume this is a redundant statement and that I was offering constructive criticism and honest and direct input from the fans? I can only assume you said this because didn't think my criticism was constructive, honest, or direct. After all, why waste time posting this statement if it applied to me. You are right about one thing: I am not a fan. I have likes and dislikes when it comes to gaming but I'm not a fan of any game.

 

5. "Telling me why you think your friend dislikes or has no use for a book, when you don't even know that to be the case, smacks of negativism, IMO."

 

I know my friend pretty well and my suspicions were confirmed so I didn't think it smacked of negativism. You chose to assume the worst and I'm not really sure why. Nor do I understand why you wanted to go on and on about this instead of the meat of what I said. Now this entire post smacks of negativism because I don't like condescension, obfuscation, or conditional apologies.

 

6. "I don't take it personally. It just makes me think that perhaps you are more inclined to support a negative perception than you are in expressing constructive suggestions for SACoH2E. I don't care what someone "thinks their friend thinks." I want to know what you think. That's all I'm saying."

 

Here I am being negative again. I thought I presented quite a few constructive suggestions concerning how to sell the book with you supers. And any adult would know you aren't simply saying that you don't care what I think my friend thinks. You felt the need to suggest I support a negative perception. That is hardly a corollary to a dismissal of supposition as you call it.

 

7. "Criticism I can take. Making stuff up to pad a message and try to impress upon me how crappy our book is does nothing to endear me to one's comments. Like I said, I care what you have to say. I don't really care what you think your friend thinks. If your friend would like to post his views, I'll gladly read them. Otherwise it's not even anecdotal; it's supposition. ::shrug::"

 

Check out the bold statement. I am stunned how I misinterpreted this. It looks pretty clear to me. I have "made stuff up" and have attempted to impress upon you how "crappy" your book is. Do you really believe this?

 

8. "Hey, feel free to start another thread about what you think bites about SACoH. That doesn't bother me. It's not about whether or not I want valid criticism. It's about staying on topic and giving your opinion instead of what you think someone else's opinion is. That's all."

 

What starts here, stays here. If you would stop trying to put spin on your statements I'd leave it alone. I didn't bring up accusations of negativism on this thread. You did.

 

9. "I can see where it might appear that way. Perhaps "impatient" is a better descriptor. In either case, I'll extend my apologies."

 

This would have been a lot more effective if you hadn't followed up with paragraph #10.

 

Also, in reference to being impatient, when getting free input to improve your product I suggest you learn some tact and patience.

 

10. "I'm not sure why you think that I think that you think it's "crappy." That's not what I said at all. To reiterate, if you dislike anything about SACoH then please feel free to tell me all about it. If it's something you think your friend thinks, then that info is less important to me. That's all. There's no reason for you to get upset just because I value your direct opinions more than what you think your friend might feel."

 

Check out the bold statement in paragraph #7 and please explain to me why you don't understand how I got the impression that you accused me of trying to tell you how crappy your book is. This is the one that really got me. I feel like I'm talking to a politician.

 

11. "Personally I think there's been some miscommunication and that the mole hill is growing quickly. Let's just put this part of the thread to rest and focus on how we can improve, SACoH. Deal?"

 

I don't think there has been some miscommunication. I think you decided to act as if some of your previous statements weren't uttered. I think you tried to finesse me and I don't like that. I'm not an employee who is afraid to defend himself. I'm not a simpleton you can "snow." It certainly hasn't been established that where you lead I should follow. All in all, I don't see how you can possibly think I buy this idea that it was all a misunderstanding. Your posts annoy me because you won't own up to your remarks and attempt to tell me what you think I want to hear after I stood up for myself. This might be all I have to say about it if you don't make another remark that "gets my back up."

 

As far as Constructive Criticism

After remarks from Monolith, D-Man, and the gang: I think you should ignore the "disappearing heroes idea" (which probably didn't need to be said) and focus on using the Justice Foundation as a POSSIBLE method for the GM to establish the team. You could provide options for the GM. One scenario is that the Justice Foundation needs new members because the old ones have moved on. Another could be that the players could be a team formed as a rival to the Justice Foundation either because the Justice Foundation's leaders secretly have less than noble designs or because the heroes are not trusted in the community. Still another option is that the Justice Foundation met a tragic end and a new team with no real association to it needs to be formed to fill the vacuum.

 

I think you need to give the same care to your villains and I think you need to give them a sense of history with the city as well. Perhaps the madman with the "powerglove" used to be the mayor and fell in with the wrong crowd. When the Bard was about to expose him he managed to fast-talk the Justice Foundation into giving him access to the "powerglove" that was being studied there in order for him to escape justice and gain his revenge.

 

I think you need to include a sample team and I think you need to include sample solo heroes. Give these characters a hook, not just a reason to exist. Make their origins an adventure instead of an excuse and be sure to explain why they have the powers they have. Have their hunteds not only be logical but symbolic. Explain why they are hunted. Flesh out their supporting cast besides their Hunteds/Rogue's Gallery. Have the characters make a mark in the city. Perhaps Azteca (if you are keeping the same lineup) has started a martial arts movement to get kids out of the slums. Maybe you could dig up a reference to some ancient warrior order of the Aztecs, Toltecs, whoever to name the organization after... or you could just make up one.

If Cavalier is used describe the secret HQ that has been built for him to meet his contacts. Possibly a business complex is really a government HQ for the "Cavalier Project." Maybe there is a designated stand-in for him that covets the suit and will do anything, even work with a local bad guy, to get his hands on the suit. These are off the top of my head with very little thought so I'm sure that Mr. Miller and you could come up with some real gems that beat this all to pieces.

 

You can provide all this in an appendix and explain the options a GM has to use what he/she likes and leave the rest behind. This should get rid of the feeling of pressure to do it one way that you're afraid of communicating to the GM. In case you really think someone would be offended by well-designed, detailed NPCs you can throw a few generic adventure scenarios in the back that could plug these NPCs in or PCs to stress the fact that you are not trying to force them to use the material.

 

I think you should have some maps of the base and vehicle.

 

I would talk up one or two of the solo heroes as much as the Justice Foundation.

[Ghost who Walks]

Originally posted by RPMiller

Now a question, do folks want all the details of the city to be kept in the book, or do you want all different stuff? In other words, should we expect everyone to buy the first book to get the information contained therein and put all different information in the second book?

 

Agree with all four of your points.

 

My own opinion is that I really hate buying regurgitated material.Ihave boxes full of it. A 2nd edition should be at least 50% new stuff.

 

Perhaps an electronic version of San Angelo 1st edition could be released, to bring in a larger audience. I don't know how your distribution works, but I have NEVER seen any of your products in game stores. I got mine at a used bookstore.

 

So far as the often mentioned NPC heroes. My opinion is a bit different, I guess. I would actually make them more powerful and experienced, that they are currently. If 5-7 years have passed in San Angelo history, have them active for that time.

 

This gives some experienced heroes that the starting players can use themselves, or use as NPC's. Or they can just forget about them entirely, and have them in the background. Personally, I still have the Marksman, Icestar and the Rose running around in my world.

 

While I understand that San Angelo is designed so that the PC heroes are the stars, that does not necessarily mean that NPC heroes can't be experienced, and around (like the Marksman was in the fusion rules). Perhaps they have retired, turned into movie stars, or taken over the yakuza. In any case, they could become part of the history of the city.

[Agent X]

On the idea of a whole new book or what have you: You can't make it dependent on someone having the original. It has to cover the same ground. That doesn't mean it has to do it the same way.

 

I agree with Storn. Tighten up the writing. Say as much as you can with as few words as possible. Add new information to most of the established features mentioned in the book and work on a more stimulating format (I have no idea how to do that). If you work on being more efficient you won't have as much pressure on page count. You can't depend on PDFs. Too many gamers don't have access.

 

Basically, the book has to be able to stand alone.

[Tom McCarthy]

I think any 2nd edition has to stand on its own. You can't refer to other resources; finding a PDF on the web isn't too bad for most of your audience, but it's hard for a few, so don't do it. Finding the first edition book is right out for most.

 

Specific things I'd hope to see:

p11 - Relocating San Angelo: As indicated above, this deserves more attention.

p163 - MHM Comics: Might as well see if you can drop a note on their competitors, the comic book publishers from CU and M&M.

In a similar vein, Champions Battlegrounds may provide a good generic map/design for a mall, park, construction site, and theme park.

p177 - Ren Westlake was 50 in '98, 40 in '88, so he was born around 2023. That means his parents have probably already been born in 2003. And if "conditions had slid too far before he was even born", Westlake must be feeling that he's running out of time to implement his plans. Of course, Westlake might be inspired by the unifying effect of 9/11. Perhaps, as a twist, he feels he doesn't need to succeed in conquest if he can just make a big enough splash to change the world ?

p187 - Sadly, Clockwork is probably dead. Hopefully he has passed on his timepieces to someone worthy, but no guarantees.

 

p226 - Are the characters going to change from 100+150 to 200+150 ?

I rather like the idea of the Justice Foundation being presented as a group of mixed power level. Perhaps 2 veterans built on 200+150, and some 5 or 6 optional characters who could fit as junior or new members, perhaps with 200+100, 200+50, or even 200+150, but with mystery powers. Let GMs pick how to round out the roster if they're NPCs, or let players pick the heroes to use.

 

Azteca - Deserves to have a bonafide origin beyond "discovered that he was actually superhuman in some ways."

 

Cavalier - His secret might be blown by now, or Dr. Clay may have died. A new generation suit was probably built, but in true Marvel fashion, stolen by a rival pilot. Perhaps a passing reference to Quinn having been grounded briefly by the military and another officer trying to fly the suit, but acting out of character and consequently losing the confidence of some teammates.

 

Corona - Outed ? Tricked into accidentally killing a soft target ? The law firm Dalton works for should be named.

 

Lotus - More on who Lotus is, less of her conversation with her father. Has 5 years of action changed her attitude ? Who are her college friends ? Has she graduated ?

 

Savant - He doesn't need much tweaking at all. He's steady, and probably little changed. He probably deserves a sidebar box on the Brain Trust membership.

 

Paragon - Giving him NCM stats doesn't impress me at all. Give him encyclopedic skills (like Harbinger or the like) and then he'll impress me.

 

Bloodsport - Dangerous only because of his combat focus, I think Bloodsport's story may be over and done with by '03. he'll only be threat to heroes if powered up or armed.

 

Photon - While unrealistic, don't give Photon a team yet. Building his team is part of the fun.

 

Siren - Another character who looks like she may be gone after 5 years.

[Tom McCarthy]

Enemies !

 

When writing up a team, move the team leader out of alphabetical order and list them first.

 

Thumbing through Enemies of San Angelo, I saw a few powers and writeups that deserved to be updated to Hero 5th style and rules. Other than that, my only complaint was insufficient contrast when a few pictures convert to grey-scale (mostly the Scions, but Blaze, Haze, and a few others, too). Conceptually, most of the villains stand up as original in either powers or motivation.

[Superskrull]

The City, my The City...

 

Y'know, up til Agent X/DougMc opted to call me an hour before I was going to work the other day, I hadn't even looked at these boards in almost two months. Maybe I was plotting evil, maybe I was surfing the net looking for obscure anime, maybe I was figuring out that I'm about three sessions from burnout on my current Champs game, maybe I was looking at the shiny objects again, I dunno.

However, he wanted my opinion on San Angelo. I said "Huh?" Then I stopped watching TV and thought about it. I didn't have an opinion on San Angelo. I bought it when it first came out. I read it. I set it with my other Champions books and ceased to think about it.

Why? I wasn't sure. I thought about it for a while. Now I know why I didn't use it. It just wasn't what I wanted or needed when I bought it. I liked the city design and info but I didn't like the heroes and villains in it. I also didn't like the world premise with the singularity changing how things worked and allowing the supernormal to occur. That was really all it took.

Flavor felt off to me for what my style of campaign was and is.

I'm also the only one in my group who owns a copy. I found it easier to have the group help me define our own city(ies) as I've seen the demon of disinterest in their eyes when they have to always ask for details and can't just throw in the personal touches themselves. As it stands, I liked San Angelo better when it was briefly described in Heroic Adventures Vol. 1. I pillaged that book happily as all I really want out of a game supplement is ideas for adventures and people. Anything else, I'll do on my own or with my players' help.

[Tom McCarthy]

I must admit that there are premises I like and dislike.

 

For example, in '88 or '89, it seemed like every power any human had in the DC Universe arose from the 'metagene'. I found it an annoyingly constraining concept, and was glad that it eventually fell out of favour. I'm still not warmed up to Hero Universe's idea that superpowers and supergadgets can exist due to high levels of ambient magical flux, and I'm not wild about the concept that singularities allow magic to exist in the universe of San Angelo. I like training, magic, technology/science, genetics and aliens to be separate origins or sources of power.

 

That wouldn't cause me to set the book back on the shelf; I'd just use what I like from San Angelo and loosen up the premises as I see fit.

[RPMiller]

Before this runs off course again, let me state that the Flux is simply a catalyst. We had a big loooooong discussion on the Flux on the San Angelo email list so I don't want to have that same discussion here. If you are interested in what was said, please read the archives for the SACoH group (link at bottom of this message).

 

The original authors had no desire whatsoever to make the Flux anymore than simply the reason that the world of San Angelo is different from our own. In my own campaigns that I ran in San Angelo, I never even mentioned the Flux to the players, and honestly it didn't matter nor was it important to them.

 

I, like most of you wonderfully creative folks, don't ever take what is in game books as the gospel for my games. I use them just like you all do, and that is to get ideas and save me time. It is my hope that SAC0H 2ed will be seen in a similiar light. While all of our material will be based off SACoH as it stands that shouldn't stop you all from using it however you please. I will really endeavor to make sure that there are some integration guidelines in the books for integrating them into various settings/universes/rule sets, but even then I hope you all treat them as guidelines and no matter what HAVE FUN!

[pinecone]

I haven't been reading this thread so I may be duplicating....I really liked SA, but the one thing that seemed missing was the impact of super heros....in my old campain in Hawaii the setting was Los Angeles and everyone Loved "Defender park" defender park was a huge park built out of the wreakage left by an attack by a huge robot godzilla...it got the characters together and a few NPCs died, the park was built to honor the defenders of the city, and the towns official super team had their base in the park (The Defenders)....it was a "cool thing" that showed the perminate effects of being able to throw honkin fistloads of dice.....it would be cool to have a park or two of new construction where a superbattle happened or stuff like that....

[rayoman]

This is the reason that I liked SA because the stats were not what was the 'norm' for other Champion's supplements.

 

Originally posted by Monolith

I also was not that found of SA because it was low-powered. Too many characters had stats below 20, and far too many of them had stats in the 15 range.

 

I think too many of the Champions characters, heroes and villains alike, suffer from stat inflation IMHO.

 

Anyway, I liked SA. I don't own it, but I have read it. Would I use it? Maybe, if I could easily adapt it to fit with in the Champions universe.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by rayoman

This is the reason that I liked SA because the stats were not what was the 'norm' for other Champion's supplements.

 

 

 

I think too many of the Champions characters, heroes and villains alike, suffer from stat inflation IMHO.

 

Anyway, I liked SA. I don't own it, but I have read it. Would I use it? Maybe, if I could easily adapt it to fit with in the Champions universe.

Stat inflation?