How do you feel about House Rules?

[Kirby]

Re: How do you feel about House Rules?

 

From context I assumed Rules As Written.

Ah' date=' well, that makes much more sense that the [i']Rules And[/i]... I was trying to complete.

Rules As Written

Rules As Written. It has nothing to do with 6E specifically; it's a generally-used acronym in the RPG community.

Phooey! It wasn't "generally-used" here four years ago. (Well, at least, I hope not, cursed memory.)

[Ndreare]

Re: How do you feel about House Rules?

 

One thing to keep in mind is for some people (me for instance) the RAW are no more valid than anyone elses opinions.

Our group uses house rules for the same reason we may choose to play Fuzion, Savage Worlds or Pictionary. Each time we play we just want to have a certain kind of fun. The rules as written are Hero Games view of the best way to do it, but no always right. There is an ART OF IMAGINATION when playing LET'S PRETEND which no single set of rules could ever capture all of.

[Guest steamteck]

Re: How do you feel about House Rules?

 

One thing to keep in mind is for some people (me for instance) the RAW are no more valid than anyone elses opinions.

Our group uses house rules for the same reason we may choose to play Fuzion, Savage Worlds or Pictionary. Each time we play we just want to have a certain kind of fun. The rules as written are Hero Games view of the best way to do it, but no always right. There is an ART OF IMAGINATION when playing LET'S PRETEND which no single set of rules could ever capture all of.

 

Well said. many times I've shared my campaign gudelines or own meger thoughts on house rules ( often which we've used for decades literally) and been warned they will destroy my campaign very quickly. For me. one of HERO's greatest strengths is its flexibilty.

[Tasha]

Re: How do you feel about House Rules?

 

Ah' date=' well, that makes much more sense that the [i']Rules And[/i]... I was trying to complete.

 

Phooey! It wasn't "generally-used" here four years ago. (Well, at least, I hope not, cursed memory.)

 

It's something that has gotten popular on all gaming boards in the last few years. I see it on the Warhammer 40k boards, RPGnet, the Pathfinder forums and here. It's pretty much spread everywhere everyone is talking about rules that are written in a book for a game. You see RAW = Rules As Written and also RAI Rules As Intended (ie what they meant when they wrote the rules). RAI is what causes the most discussion on most boards. With 6e1 and 6e2 we pretty much know that Steve intended when he wrote the rules. They are in those huge tomes. If we have a question that isn't in the books he answers questions here.

[Tasha]

Re: How do you feel about House Rules?

 

One thing to keep in mind is for some people (me for instance) the RAW are no more valid than anyone elses opinions.

Our group uses house rules for the same reason we may choose to play Fuzion, Savage Worlds or Pictionary. Each time we play we just want to have a certain kind of fun. The rules as written are Hero Games view of the best way to do it, but no always right. There is an ART OF IMAGINATION when playing LET'S PRETEND which no single set of rules could ever capture all of.

 

Which is why there are so many optional rules presented in all of the books that Hero Produces. They present ways to present certain genres while still using as many of the RAW as possible.

[Tasha]

Re: How do you feel about House Rules?

 

For example' date=' I just found a rule in Champions Complete that made me go "wah?" Area of Effect, Damage Shield. "When the Dam[i']a[/i]ge Shield options are added to a Mental Power, along with the Limitation Mental Contact Only (-1/2), this creates a Mental Damage Shield."

 

Wah?

 

Since when did Mental damage powers cost less? Mental Damage Shield is a +1 advantage, same as switching an attack from PD/ED to MD with AVLD. New house rule!

 

That only makes sense if the MDS is based on something besides Ego Attack. I could see requiring such a build on Telepathy, Mind Control or Mental Illusion Mental Damage Shields (MDS).

[esampson]

Re: How do you feel about House Rules?

 

Just as an aside' date=' HERO doesn't refer to anything as "CON Stunned," and it never has, in any edition of the rules. I've known countless people who use this term, but have always been a bit puzzled at how it got so widespread, considering that it doesn't appear anywhere in the rules... Anyone know? [/quote']

It may also exist to help separate characters who were stunned because their constitution was exceeded from those who were "deeply stunned" because they are at negative stun that is -10 or greater.

[Tasha]

Re: How do you feel about House Rules?

 

It may also exist to help separate characters who were stunned because their constitution was exceeded from those who were "deeply stunned" because they are at negative stun that is -10 or greater.

 

Nope. If your stun Total is 0 or below you are Knocked Out. There are Levels of being Knocked out ie Every Phase (inc Post Seg 12), Only Post Seg 12, Once a Minute, and GM's Option. These of course refer to when the KOed Character can get a Recovery. (ref 6e2 pg 107, and similar pages of every hero rules book since Champions 1st Edition).

 

You are only Stunned if your Con was exceeded by the attack.

 

If you are consistant with the way you use the terminology and make sure that everyone in your group understands the differences and why using the Terminology correctly is important. Then you have no confusion.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: How do you feel about House Rules?

 

I can only find one use of "deeply Stunned" in 6E and it is not presented as a game/mechanic term, but as an illustration for the first level of being Knocked Out in the Knocked Out section of the book.

[Gary Miles]

Re: How do you feel about House Rules?

 

Because an effective hit that exceeds CON is stunned.

And there's an official RAW term for that- Stunned.

[Gary Miles]

Re: How do you feel about House Rules?

 

What Greywind stated. It is also helpful for new players learning the HERO system (when Stun, Stun Drain, and Stunned come into play).

I would think it would be more helpful for new players to learn the actual terminology of the game.

[Ndreare]

Re: How do you feel about House Rules?

 

Let me pose the question, Has anyone ever used the term "Con Stunned" an d someone not know what the meant?

It sounds to me like the ATM Machine situation. In all of history there has never been an ATM Machine to my knowledge only ATM and ATMs but at a point it is pedantic to correct someone for saying ATM Machine when we all know what the person is asking for.

 

In this particular case I think the Game Designers are wrong! It is obvious the common term for players is Con Stunned and really is disappointing the game designers never figured it out.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: How do you feel about House Rules?

 

When I asked whether anyone knew where "CON-Stunned" came from, I didn't mean I don't understand what people mean by it, or that I can't guess why someone might coin the term. I meant does anyone know literally where it came from. Like, did the players in the original Guardians campaign use it, and therefore it spread as the game spread, etc.?

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: How do you feel about House Rules?

 

Let me pose the question' date=' Has anyone ever used the term "Con Stunned" an d someone not know what the meant?[/quote']

 

Yes. I've seen players who were unfamiliar with the term be confused by it, because they knew what "Stunned" was, and thought "CON-Stunned" must be something different, or some house rule or something.

[Tasha]

Re: How do you feel about House Rules?

 

Let me pose the question, Has anyone ever used the term "Con Stunned" an d someone not know what the meant?

It sounds to me like the ATM Machine situation. In all of history there has never been an ATM Machine to my knowledge only ATM and ATMs but at a point it is pedantic to correct someone for saying ATM Machine when we all know what the person is asking for.

 

In this particular case I think the Game Designers are wrong! It is obvious the common term for players is Con Stunned and really is disappointing the game designers never figured it out.

 

Yeah the first time I heard it I had to ask what the heck they meant. I wanted to make sure that there wasn't some crappy house rule about losing your con when stunned or something.

 

Stunned is something that most groups I played with never had a problem with. Also the ones that misused the term Con Stunned, also started to feel better about using Stunned as the correct term for having one's con exceeded. Making sure that everyone used Knocked Out or Unconscious to describe a character at 0 or less stun also helped.

[Tasha]

Re: How do you feel about House Rules?

 

When I asked whether anyone knew where "CON-Stunned" came from' date=' I didn't mean I don't understand what people mean by it, or that I can't guess why someone might coin the term. I meant does anyone know literally [b']where[/b] it came from. Like, did the players in the original Guardians campaign use it, and therefore it spread as the game spread, etc.?

 

When I played with Bruce Harlick he used Stunned and KOed.(Bruce was the first person who challenged one of my Hero House Rules, and he was actually right. Though he was cool enough to play it my way) Also when I played with Randy Greer (Ray Greer's older Brother) he also used the terms correctly. I doubt that it started with anyone from the Hero Groups that played and were spawned from the original Hero Groups. Also when I started to play Hero, I played with People who played with the some of the Satellite Hero Games Groups. They also Used Stunned and Unconscious. I don't think it came from the people who originally played in the Peninsula or from the folk who played in our groups in San Leandro, San Lorenzo and Castro Valley.

 

The First time I heard it was from a group that played first in Hayward and moved south as people got older.

[esampson]

Re: How do you feel about House Rules?

 

Nope. If your stun Total is 0 or below you are Knocked Out. There are Levels of being Knocked out ie Every Phase (inc Post Seg 12), Only Post Seg 12, Once a Minute, and GM's Option. These of course refer to when the KOed Character can get a Recovery. (ref 6e2 pg 107, and similar pages of every hero rules book since Champions 1st Edition).

 

You are only Stunned if your Con was exceeded by the attack.

 

If you are consistant with the way you use the terminology and make sure that everyone in your group understands the differences and why using the Terminology correctly is important. Then you have no confusion.

Yes, I know you are Knocked Out when you are at negative stun, even when your stun total is greater than or equal to -10. However there's the condition of being 'barely knocked out' or 'deeply stunned' mentioned in 6E2, pg. 106. Yes, you are still Knocked Out when you are in that state, I'm not arguing that. I'm simply suggesting that the term 'Con Stunned' may have been created by some people who wanted to avoid confusion between Stunned and Knocked Out (but not really knocked out).

 

I never really use the term 'Con Stunned' myself unless I'm dealing with a group where that really is the standard. Then I'll adopt the term simply to avoid confusion of me using a (to them) non-standard term (odds are pretty good that the group is using 'Con Stunned' because they are using 'Stunned' to mean something else, like the aforementioned Knocked Out (but not really knocked out), though there's plenty of times when that's not true).

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: How do you feel about House Rules?

 

When I played with Bruce Harlick he used Stunned and KOed.(Bruce was the first person who challenged one of my Hero House Rules, and he was actually right. Though he was cool enough to play it my way) Also when I played with Randy Greer (Ray Greer's older Brother) he also used the terms correctly. I doubt that it started with anyone from the Hero Groups that played and were spawned from the original Hero Groups. Also when I started to play Hero, I played with People who played with the some of the Satellite Hero Games Groups. They also Used Stunned and Unconscious. I don't think it came from the people who originally played in the Peninsula or from the folk who played in our groups in San Leandro, San Lorenzo and Castro Valley.

 

The First time I heard it was from a group that played first in Hayward and moved south as people got older.

 

Yeah, I didn't really think it started with the original group. I've never played with Bruce or George or Steve P. or Ray as GM, but I've also played with Randy and with Glenn Thain, and I don't remember either of them using "CON-Stunned" (and I probably would remember if they had, because it bugs me. )

 

I wonder if it could have started with the CalTech groups (David Berge, Andrew Robinson, etc.) or with Aaron Allston's groups... Just trying to think of groups that would have been influential in the early days (because I know it was already widespread by the time I started playing in 1987).

[Tasha]

Re: How do you feel about House Rules?

 

Yes, I know you are Knocked Out when you are at negative stun, even when your stun total is greater than or equal to -10. However there's the condition of being 'barely knocked out' or 'deeply stunned' mentioned in 6E2, pg. 106. Yes, you are still Knocked Out when you are in that state, I'm not arguing that. I'm simply suggesting that the term 'Con Stunned' may have been created by some people who wanted to avoid confusion between Stunned and Knocked Out (but not really knocked out).

 

I never really use the term 'Con Stunned' myself unless I'm dealing with a group where that really is the standard. Then I'll adopt the term simply to avoid confusion of me using a (to them) non-standard term (odds are pretty good that the group is using 'Con Stunned' because they are using 'Stunned' to mean something else, like the aforementioned Knocked Out (but not really knocked out), though there's plenty of times when that's not true).

 

There is mentioned the Concept of being "Barely Knocked Out" aka One a Phase is what we called that state. BTW In hero You are either Conscious or Unconscious. Being Barely Knocked out is still unconscious. You MIGHT be able to see what is happening around you (which makes it better than being stunned).

 

Ok I see now where that is coming from.

"If a character is only barely Knocked Out (down to -10 STUN), he’s not completely unconscious — in fact, it’s more like he’s deeply Stunned. Depending upon the character and the nature of the attack, he may even be on his feet, wobbly but still standing, as he tries to shake off the effects of the attack. He’s dimly aware of what’s going on around him, but is too woozy and dazed to take any action or maintain any power. He can make a PER Roll to perceive something really important, but otherwise he cannot interact with the world. He can’t move, Dodge, take any Actions, or do anything but take Recoveries."

 

Wow I thought that Steve had gotten rid of the confusing rules. That is clear as mud. Though I don't really see how someone can get Stunned (which was covered in the previous section of the rules) mixed up with Being Unconscious. I guess Steve was giving folk a way to keep interacting with the game even though the character is Unconscious.

[Tasha]

Re: How do you feel about House Rules?

 

Yeah, I didn't really think it started with the original group. I've never played with Bruce or George or Steve P. or Ray as GM, but I've also played with Randy and with Glenn Thain, and I don't remember either of them using "CON-Stunned" (and I probably would remember if they had, because it bugs me. )

 

I wonder if it could have started with the CalTech groups (David Berge, Andrew Robinson, etc.) or with Aaron Allston's groups... Just trying to think of groups that would have been influential in the early days (because I know it was already widespread by the time I started playing in 1987).

 

I didn't encounter it till around 2002 or so IRL. I had seen it and commented on it on the boards (different screen name in those days) but till I started playing with a new group I hadn't heard it.

 

I never have played with George, Steve P or Ray. Though I have met them at cons.

[Sammael]

Re: How do you feel about House Rules?

 

I've too many other demands on my time these days to work on many House Rules. I used to game with a few cleverly hand-crafted rules every game I ran and I ran most of the games our group played. I do have a couple in a DC Adventures game I'm currently running, but that's only because the rules are so poorly done. The Champions Complete game I'll be running next look to be sans House Rules (so far).

 

Though, you never know... I might just HR a d20, roll high replacement mechanic.

 

Ok, just kidding.

[Greywind]

Re: How do you feel about House Rules?

 

It was used around here with the two groups I played with in the mid-80s.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: How do you feel about House Rules?

 

If the pedigree of CON-Stunned has been sufficiently sleuthed, perhaps we could return to House Rule discussion?

 

I'll even try for a segue... I've seen folks on the forums discuss a rule in which a character who takes more than a particular amount of Stun damage past Defenses in one attack also takes Body damage automatically. That might even have been in a Hero book at one point, although I can't remember for sure. Anyone use a rule like that in your games? What was the effect?

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: How do you feel about House Rules?

 

If the pedigree of CON-Stunned has been sufficiently sleuthed, perhaps we could return to House Rule discussion?

 

I'll even try for a segue... I've seen folks on the forums discuss a rule in which a character who takes more than a particular amount of Stun damage past Defenses in one attack also takes Body damage automatically. That might even have been in a Hero book at one point, although I can't remember for sure. Anyone use a rule like that in your games? What was the effect?

Not in any books I know of... I think Susano might be the origin of that one. I tend to think of it as "Bruising" rules, and 1 BOD per 20 Stun past defenses seems to be the usual level folk set it at. I have yet to actually use it in play, but I'll probably do so if I ever run another Supers campaign.

[Ndreare]

Re: How do you feel about House Rules?

 

If the pedigree of CON-Stunned has been sufficiently sleuthed, perhaps we could return to House Rule discussion?

 

I'll even try for a segue... I've seen folks on the forums discuss a rule in which a character who takes more than a particular amount of Stun damage past Defenses in one attack also takes Body damage automatically. That might even have been in a Hero book at one point, although I can't remember for sure. Anyone use a rule like that in your games? What was the effect?

I think this idea came from fuzion were every 5 stun also causes 1 hit.

 

We did try. House rule in Hero were every 10 full stun that passes def equals 1 body. But it was broken, characters developed more fear of combat than we were shooting for so the players vetoed it.