How do you feel about House Rules?

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: How do you feel about House Rules?

 

If I were to try that as a house rule, I think I'd limit the amount of BODY you could lose that way. For example, perhaps you could lose no more than half your BODY total to "Bruising." The idea of characters getting a bit beat up is interesting, but I don't think I'd want anyone dying from it directly...

[psyber624]

Re: How do you feel about House Rules?

 

Sounds like it may have been brought up as some way to make Normal Damage attacks actually do BODY against standard levels of defense.

[Kirby]

Re: How do you feel about House Rules?

 

Nope. If your stun Total is 0 or below you are Knocked Out.

 

Making sure that everyone used Knocked Out or Unconscious to describe a character at 0 or less stun also helped.

The slight problem here is that "RAW" when you're knocked out, you can still be conscious.

 

"If a character is only barely Knocked Out (down to -10 STUN), he is not completely unconscious - in fact, it's more like he's deeply Stunned. Depending upon the character and the nature of the attack, he may even be on his feet, wobbly but still standing, as he tries to shake off the effects of the attack. He's dimly aware of what's going on around him, but is too woozy and dazed to take any action or maintain any Power. He can make a PER Roll to perceive something really important, but otherwise he cannot interact with the world; he can't move, Dodge take any Actions, or do anything but take Recoveries." (FREd, p. 274)

 

"If he is only barely Knocked Out (down to -10 STUN), the character is aware of what is going on around him, but is too woozy to take any action or maintain any Power. The character can make a PER Roll to hear something really important, but otherwise he cannot interact with the world, is unable to move, etc. If the character has been Knocked Out further (below -10 STUN), then he cannot have any contact with the outside world - he's out cold." (BBB p. 160)

 

I would think that the 6E description would be consistent with those.

[Kirby]

Re: How do you feel about House Rules?

 

I would think it would be more helpful for new players to learn the actual terminology of the game.

I would think the terminology people use in their own games wouldn't upset people who don't play in them. Go figure this thread disproves that. :shrug:

 

YMMV.

[Kirby]

Re: How do you feel about House Rules?

 

Ok I see now where that is coming from.

"If a character is only barely Knocked Out (down to -10 STUN), he’s not completely unconscious — in fact, it’s more like he’s deeply Stunned. Depending upon the character and the nature of the attack, he may even be on his feet, wobbly but still standing, as he tries to shake off the effects of the attack. He’s dimly aware of what’s going on around him, but is too woozy and dazed to take any action or maintain any power. He can make a PER Roll to perceive something really important, but otherwise he cannot interact with the world. He can’t move, Dodge, take any Actions, or do anything but take Recoveries."

 

Wow I thought that Steve had gotten rid of the confusing rules. That is clear as mud.

Interesting. It's crystal clear to me.

 

Though I don't really see how someone can get Stunned (which was covered in the previous section of the rules) mixed up with Being Unconscious. I guess Steve was giving folk a way to keep interacting with the game even though the character is Unconscious.

Has anyone on this thread confused Stunned with Being Unconscious. You mentioned it at least twice, yet I don't see the proof. Did I miss it somewhere?

[Kirby]

Re: How do you feel about House Rules?

 

If the pedigree of CON-Stunned has been sufficiently sleuthed' date=' perhaps we could return to House Rule discussion? [/quote']Are you sure? People have differing preferences on how to have fun and there are still those who deem it necessary that the former method of fun is wrong!

 

The mention of bruising reminds me of an old house rule we used to use that began with AD&D (before the 3.0 junk came out). We started keeping track of our damage as separate wounds. The Healing/Paramedics/First Aid (whatever D&D's name for it was) rolls could be applied to each and you could bandage back 1 hp per wound. We started using this for Dark Champions, but only if you took 1 BODY from an attack; those were then considered bruises. A separate Paramedics roll could be applied to those and, if successful, that BODY would be returned to you. We eventually used it for all of our Champions games (and maybe even other RPGs), which proved very fruitful for my Golden Age character in a solo adventure, when he ended up taking his full BODY in damage over the course of a month. Most attacks caused 1 BODY, which generally were healed back, but by the time the adventure was over and he was headed back home, he was down about 4 BODY, IIRC.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: How do you feel about House Rules?

 

Interesting. It's crystal clear to me.

 

Has anyone on this thread confused Stunned with Being Unconscious. You mentioned it at least twice, yet I don't see the proof. Did I miss it somewhere?

People suggested the the term CON Stunned was coined to prevent that confusion, so apparently someone was or thought someone else might be.

[Kirby]

Re: How do you feel about House Rules?

 

People suggested the the term CON Stunned was coined to prevent that confusion' date=' so apparently someone was or thought someone else might be.[/quote']By people do you mean one person? I've just seen this on the previous page:

... (odds are pretty good that the group is using 'Con Stunned' because they are using 'Stunned' to mean something else' date=' like the aforementioned Knocked Out (but not really knocked out), though there's plenty of times when that's not true).[/quote']Someone speculating on a phrase's origin doesn't mean their speculation is accurate. Again, Tasha has been the only one suggesting that anyone is confusing Stunned with Knocked Out and hasn't provided anything to substantiate this point of angst. She originally quoted me (post 36) where I stated:

What Greywind stated. It [CON Stunned] is also helpful for new players learning the HERO system (when Stun, Stun Drain, and Stunned come into play).

 

Dazed is a term my old face-to-face group incorporated so long ago that I don't recall if its origin appeared during Champions or another game system.

She replied (post 38) stating:

I have been teaching new players for decades. I have never met anyone who had a problem distinguishing being Stunned from Being Knocked out.

[Emphasis mine.]

As you can clearly see, there was no mention of distinguishing being Stunned from being Knocked Out, yet her complaint persists. I pointed out this error, but she's ignored it for one reason or another, continuing to complain about this, derailing the thread from it's actual topic.

 

YMMV.

 

Kirby "I like house rules, but I don't like like them."

 

EDIT: Speculation: Maybe a group started using CON Stunned to differentiate between being stunned in Star Wars and Star Trek (where you're unconscious) and being Stunned in Champions/HERO.

[Tasha]

Re: How do you feel about House Rules?

 

Interesting. It's crystal clear to me.

 

Has anyone on this thread confused Stunned with Being Unconscious. You mentioned it at least twice, yet I don't see the proof. Did I miss it somewhere?

 

Why else use a term "Con Stunned" unless you or your group confuses being Stunned with being KOed? There's really no other form of being stunned in the game. Just having your con exceeded. In otherwords If you aren't confusing being Stunned with Being KOed there's no rational reason to use a made up term such as "Con Stunned". If you have a reason that I am not seeing here, please enlighten me.

 

You just proved that the "Barely Stunned" verbage is a 6e addition to the rules.

 

2nd edition Champions(The box set, the rule book has a grey cover) says on Knockout

"If a character's STUN total is ever reduced to 0 or below he is Knocked Out. A Character who is Knocked Out instantly has his CV reduced to 0 and may not do anything until he recovers. Characters who are Knocked Out will take recoveries until his STUN total is greater than 0. As soon as the Character has a positive STUN total he is considered awake." C2ndEd pg 57

 

Champions 3rd Edition (3rd Printing)

"If a hero's STUN total is ever reduced to 0 or below he is Knocked out" A hero who is Knocked Out is lying on the ground (or falling if he was in the air). Instantly has his CV reduced to 0 and can't do anything until he recovers. Heroes who are Knocked Out will take recoveries until their STUN total is greater than 0. As soon as the hero has a positive STUN total he's awake."

 

so this strange business of 0 to -9 Stun being Unconscious, but still being able to keep track of combat (with a PER roll) was added with 4th ed. BTW in those old rules one had to Recover from being Stunned before they could start recoveries of their Stun Total.

[Tasha]

Re: How do you feel about House Rules?

 

By people do you mean one person? I've just seen this on the previous page:

Someone speculating on a phrase's origin doesn't mean their speculation is accurate. Again, Tasha has been the only one suggesting that anyone is confusing Stunned with Knocked Out and hasn't provided anything to substantiate this point of angst. She originally quoted me (post 36) where I stated:

 

She replied (post 38) stating:

[Emphasis mine.]

As you can clearly see, there was no mention of distinguishing being Stunned from being Knocked Out, yet her complaint persists. I pointed out this error, but she's ignored it for one reason or another, continuing to complain about this, derailing the thread from it's actual topic.

 

YMMV.

 

Kirby "I like house rules, but I don't like like them."

 

EDIT: Speculation: Maybe a group started using CON Stunned to differentiate between being stunned in Star Wars and Star Trek (where you're unconscious) and being Stunned in Champions/HERO.

 

All of that and your last sentence makes my point.

 

I am trying to once and for all figure out where the term "Con Stunned" comes from. I am trying to rationalize that it came from gamers who somehow were confusing being Stunned with being Knocked Out.

 

All you are doing Kirby is saying that I am wrong then not giving me an alternate explanation that is any different from my Hypothesis.

 

Sorry that the thread has drifted a bit. We will get back to annoying House Rules and why people use them. In some way "Con Stunned" is a house rule by itself. It's a term that certain groups use instead of the correct term that is in the RAW.

 

Yes it does bug me. Nearly as much as when people use the terms Phase and Segment interchangeably. (don't get me started on that one please).

 

Yeah, groups can use whatever jargon they want to when their group plays the game. They shouldn't be surprised that when they attend Conventions and/or get new players who use the RAW Jargon that the group specific jargon causes confusion and annoyance.

[Tasha]

Re: How do you feel about House Rules?

 

Are you sure? People have differing preferences on how to have fun and there are still those who deem it necessary that the former method of fun is wrong!

 

The mention of bruising reminds me of an old house rule we used to use that began with AD&D (before the 3.0 junk came out). We started keeping track of our damage as separate wounds. The Healing/Paramedics/First Aid (whatever D&D's name for it was) rolls could be applied to each and you could bandage back 1 hp per wound. We started using this for Dark Champions, but only if you took 1 BODY from an attack; those were then considered bruises. A separate Paramedics roll could be applied to those and, if successful, that BODY would be returned to you. We eventually used it for all of our Champions games (and maybe even other RPGs), which proved very fruitful for my Golden Age character in a solo adventure, when he ended up taking his full BODY in damage over the course of a month. Most attacks caused 1 BODY, which generally were healed back, but by the time the adventure was over and he was headed back home, he was down about 4 BODY, IIRC.

 

Funny, tracking separate wounds for most Hero groups started in 1st Edition Fantasy Hero where the Healing wasn't additive. To make healing as effective as it is in D&D the suggestion was to keep track of all wounds separately. Then healing could be applied to each wound, making small heals more effective.

[Kirby]

Re: How do you feel about House Rules?

 

Why else use a term "Con Stunned" unless you or your group confuses being Stunned with being KOed? There's really no other form of being stunned in the game... If you have a reason that I am not seeing here' date=' please enlighten me.[/quote']Because people (prime example: me) were using "CON Stunned" in place of "Stunned," not "Knocked Out." That's been reiterated. I think your frustration comes from the fact that you're using absolutes and assumptions.

 

You just proved that the "Barely Stunned" verbage is a 6e addition to the rules.

I'm not sure how I proved that, especially when I don't own any 6E material. In addition, neither of us has quoted from a rulebook using "Barely Stunned" verbiage. Your own quoting of 6E states "deeply Stunned," which came to in 5E. For someone so adamantly pedantic, I'm somewhat surprised you erred on this.

 

so this strange business of 0 to -9 Stun being Unconscious' date=' but still being able to keep track of combat (with a PER roll) was added with 4th ed. BTW in those old rules one had to Recover from being Stunned before they could start recoveries of their Stun Total.[/quote']Well, it's 0 to -10, but yes, it came about in 4th Ed (and I'm happy it did). Now, this entire 4th Ed rule you're talking about is one of my House Rules. I'm curious if that automatically qualifies me -in your opinion only, of course- of trying to be clever, being a munchkin, annoying, or making it cumbersome?

 

All of that and your last sentence makes my point.

 

I am trying to once and for all figure out where the term "Con Stunned" comes from. I am trying to rationalize that it came from gamers who somehow were confusing being Stunned with being Knocked Out.

 

All you are doing Kirby is saying that I am wrong then not giving me an alternate explanation that is any different from my Hypothesis.

Because that wasn't the issue. In essence, the topic/point was that I (and my old gaming group) interchanged Dazed, CON Stunned and Stunned. You then created the false argument that gamers were confusing Stunned with being Knocked Out. I've been asking where did you get the idea that they were confusing the two because it hadn't been mentioned prior to your interjection.

 

If you won't let this false problem go without an alternate explanations, I'll offer up one. My old group used to rotate between 2-4 GMs playing different RPGs twice a week. We played Star Wars, Star Trek, Rifts, AD&D, L5R, Deadlands, Champions, White Wolf, Top Secret, a couple others that I can't recall their names and a few I'm sure I've forgotten about or we only played once after I joined (such as Call of Cthulhu). If you can break out of the mindset that a group only thinks about that one game they're playing, you might understand how house rules come about as well as synonyms used to replace official jargon.

 

Sorry that the thread has drifted a bit. We will get back to annoying House Rules and why people use them. In some way "Con Stunned" is a house rule by itself. It's a term that certain groups use instead of the correct term that is in the RAW.

Here is another example of your absolutes and assumptions. Already' date=' House Rules are defined as annoying (an absolute statement), then you assume that "CON Stunned" is incorrect, without knowing its origin. The [i']official[/i] term is Stunned. The correct term is whatever the campaign uses.

 

Yes it does bug me. Nearly as much as when people use the terms Phase and Segment interchangeably. (don't get me started on that one please).

I find it interesting how pedantic you are regarding HERO, yet you have grammar errors in nearly every post in this thread.

 

They shouldn't be surprised that when they attend Conventions and/or get new players who use the RAW Jargon that the group specific jargon causes confusion and annoyance.

Has anyone stated they were surprised? (I may have missed it with all this fluff.)

 

Funny' date=' tracking separate wounds for most Hero groups started in 1st Edition Fantasy Hero where the Healing wasn't additive.[/quote']Interesting. The group that I first learned of Champions started playing in 4E. We came up with the AD&D separate wound method and applied it to other genres/RPGs on our own.

 

YMMV.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: How do you feel about House Rules?

 

Speaking As A Moderator: I remind you all that the board guidelines call for all members to be treated respectfully. Please tone it down with the snarky asides and putting words in other peoples' mouths. Thanks.

[Tasha]

Re: How do you feel about House Rules?

 

Respectfully Kirby,

 

I do understand that people are using "Con Stunned" and Stunned as Interchangeable terms. My opinion was that the term "Con Stunned" came into being because some people were using Stunned interchangably with Unconscious or Knocked out and causing confusion by doing so. Otherwise why come up with a new term? Perhaps your group used it because of the other games that used Stunned as a state of being unconscious.

 

I mentioned my theory because that's what local people using that Term told me was the reason for it. That they found players who confused being stunned with being Knocked out. That may not have been the case with your group.

 

It was Derek who pointed out to you that "Just as an aside, HERO doesn't refer to anything as "CON Stunned," and it never has, in any edition of the rules. I've known countless people who use this term, but have always been a bit puzzled at how it got so widespread, considering that it doesn't appear anywhere in the rules... Anyone know?"

 

Also while some people brought up the possibility of STUN the Characteristic being confused with Stunned the Condition.

 

I brought up the "Barely Stunned" passage because another poster brought it up as a possible source of "Con Stunned".

 

I am sorry that I am "Grammar Challenged" I try to be accurate in how I say and write ideas. I know that I suffer from an abundance of Run-on Sentences. I try my best to have clear grammar. Sometimes I don't succeed.

 

Here is another example of your absolutes and assumptions. Already, House Rules are defined as annoying (an absolute statement), then you assume that "CON Stunned" is incorrect, without knowing its origin. The official term is Stunned. The correct term is whatever the campaign uses.

 

The Correct term is what is presented in the RAW. Anything else IMHO is the equivalent of a house rule.

 

Yes, I am very pedantic about terms used in Hero. Using the Terms presented in the RAW prevents confusion esp when one is posting on a message board.

 

I really couldn't care what you call things in Hero while you are playing in your own group. When you post here or play in other groups, I hope you use the terms presented in the RAW to prevent confusion.

 

I am really not attacking your or your gaming group. I was saying that I have different experiences and that most groups that I have played with eventually transitioned to using Stunned and never saw a real need to go back to Con Stunned.

 

Yeah, I do dislike house rules. Most are created with the best of intentions. At best they can stifle character creativity, at their worst they cause worse problems in the rules than they try to fix.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: How do you feel about House Rules?

 

Guys, I'm afraid we're experiencing a bout of "rebut-itis," where a poster keeps trying to rebut specific points from an earlier post, the first poster rebuts the rebuttal, and on and on, each party trying to get in the last word. I've seen folks go down this path many times, and it never ends well. Sometimes it doesn't end at all, until a moderator has to lock an otherwise interesting thread.

 

May I respectfully suggest we all agree to disagree, and move on?

[ghost-angel]

Re: How do you feel about House Rules?

 

In my experience - the term "CON Stunned" (which, I hate for the record) came about to avoid confusion with the Description (Adding Color) - "a stunning hit" (or something similar) because only really Skilled Speakers can speak in Caps and mean Stunned Game Term versus stunned colorful description of a hard hit.

 

 

What I'm glad was done away with was the "You have to recover from being Stunned before you can take a Recovery for being Knocked Unconscious" because that was a stupid, dumb, stupid, rule. And I'm glad 5E got rid of it, and I constantly have to remind my fellow players (in multiple groups) of that nice change.

[Lucius]

Re: How do you feel about House Rules?

 

With 6e1 and 6e2 we pretty much know that Steve intended when he wrote the rules.

 

We do? Who does? I've never gotten anything out of him but "I'm sorry, I don't answer game design or philosophy questions."

 

Lucius Alexander

 

I'm sorry, I don't answer palindromedary tagline questions

[Tasha]

Re: How do you feel about House Rules?

 

We do? Who does? I've never gotten anything out of him but "I'm sorry, I don't answer game design or philosophy questions."

 

Lucius Alexander

 

I'm sorry, I don't answer palindromedary tagline questions

 

What I meant is that while We don't know his Game Design Philosophy or why certain rules are there. We know without a doubt what those rules were supposed to DO. He included so many examples esp in the Skills/Perks/Talents/Powers sections that it's hard to not see how something works and what rules make it tick. Now it is a ton of info overload, but it does come in handy when trying to answer player questions about 6e. Also, in those few cases where the rule is still unclear one can ask Steve a question about how the rule works in his Q&A section.

[McCoy]

Re: How do you feel about House Rules?

 

When I asked whether anyone knew where "CON-Stunned" came from' date=' I didn't mean I don't understand what people mean by it, or that I can't guess why someone might coin the term. I meant does anyone know literally [b']where[/b] it came from. Like, did the players in the original Guardians campaign use it, and therefore it spread as the game spread, etc.?

Don't know, do know I heard it in the first Champions game I played (2nd ed, believe it was 1982). It made a lot more sense to me than when I read over the rules several times and stunned had nothing to do with STUN. Now I call stunned "dazed," and for many years in FTF games referred to a character having their bell rung.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: How do you feel about House Rules?

 

Don't know' date=' do know I heard it in the first Champions game I played (2nd ed, believe it was 1982). It made a lot more sense to me than when I read over the rules several times and [b']stunned had nothing to do with STUN[/b]. Now I call stunned "dazed," and for many years in FTF games referred to a character having their bell rung.

Did getting Stunned work differently back in that edition? Because it has a lot to do with STUN now...

[McCoy]

Re: How do you feel about House Rules?

 

Did getting Stunned work differently back in that edition? Because it has a lot to do with STUN now...

Have they changed it that much? IIRC (books are currently packed away) how much STUN your character had determined if they were Knocked Out or not, but not if they were stunned. They could be stunned but not KO'ed, KO'ed but not stunned, both, or (the usual condition) neither.

[ghost-angel]

Re: How do you feel about House Rules?

 

Did getting Stunned work differently back in that edition? Because it has a lot to do with STUN now...

 

Not really... You're being Stunned has nothing to do with how much Stun you have either at maximum or currently. It's merely a result of Stun Damage Taken > Con Characteristic.

 

Nothing in the formula involves the Stun Characteristic. It involves Defense, Damage, and Constitution.

[Gary Miles]

Re: How do you feel about House Rules?

 

One of my "house rules" is actually a holdover of a RAW- when a person is Flashed, we still use number of Phases rather than number of Segments.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: How do you feel about House Rules?

 

Not really... You're being Stunned has nothing to do with how much Stun you have either at maximum or currently. It's merely a result of Stun Damage Taken > Con Characteristic.

 

Nothing in the formula involves the Stun Characteristic. It involves Defense, Damage, and Constitution.

 

If the amount of STUN you lose to a single hit is higher than your CON than you are STUNNED. I see you specified "the Stun Characteristic" so maybe I was just getting stuck on semantics before.

[Tasha]

Re: How do you feel about House Rules?

 

Don't know' date=' do know I heard it in the first Champions game I played (2nd ed, believe it was 1982). It made a lot more sense to me than when I read over the rules several times and stunned had nothing to do with STUN. Now I call stunned "dazed," and for many years in FTF games referred to a character having their bell rung.[/quote']

 

Having played since 2nd edition and also having looked over the rules from 2nd edition and 3rd edition today. Being Stunned was always called being Stunned. It was always caused when the amount of damage taken after applicable defenses exceeded the target's Con Score. Being Stunned and KO'ed hasn't really changed much since the rules were first published. The biggest changes started in 4th edition that changed the rules for being Stunned while Unconscious. Basically if you fall unconscious you can start taking Recoveries as soon as your negative stun total allows. You don't have to recover from being stunned first (which is actually a nice change for PC's). Also from 0 to -10 stun one can make a Per roll to understand what is going on despite being otherwise unconscious.

 

I had had characters say that someone has had their bell rung meaning that they were stunned. It's more of a RP thing. Sometimes when teaching a new player or a rusty old player. I will ask if the damage taken has exceed their Con. If yes, then I tell them that their character has been stunned and what the consequences of said state are.