Jrandom Posted February 15, 2013 Report Share Posted February 15, 2013 I am looking at running a company in the "Swords and Sorcery" fantasy setting. What would be good inspirational material for my players? I already told them about about the following movies: Conan the Barbarian http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0082198/?ref_=sr_2 Fire and Ice (an animated movie done in the style of the 70s animated Lord of the Rings) http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0085542/ Can anyone else think of any good setting material for the fantasy genre? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluesguy Posted February 18, 2013 Report Share Posted February 18, 2013 Re: Swords and Sorcery Setting Book Series: Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser Thieves World And here is an article with a list of Sword & Sorcery movies Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tkdguy Posted February 19, 2013 Report Share Posted February 19, 2013 Re: Swords and Sorcery Setting The Elric of Melnibone series is also a good sword & sorcery resource. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranxerox Posted February 19, 2013 Report Share Posted February 19, 2013 Re: Swords and Sorcery Setting Book Series: Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser Thieves World And here is an article with a list of Sword & Sorcery movies Your sword & sorcery movie link doesn't go where you meant it to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tkdguy Posted February 19, 2013 Report Share Posted February 19, 2013 Re: Swords and Sorcery Setting A lot of Clark Ashton Smith's stuff is a great resource. The Eldritch Dark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Long Posted February 19, 2013 Report Share Posted February 19, 2013 Re: Swords and Sorcery Setting In addition to the discussion of the S&S subgenre on FH 39-41, I've blogged about the subject a time or two: http://stevenslong.squarespace.com/blogs/2012/1/27/radial-categories-and-swords-and-sorcery.html http://stevenslong.squarespace.com/blogs/2012/5/29/the-sword-and-sorcery-anthology-a-review.html If you don't have FH, my Defining Fantasy article mirrors the first chapter of that book, which discusses the subgenres and elements of Fantasy: http://stevenslong.squarespace.com/articles/2011/12/28/defining-fantasy.html Some of the stories I'd recommend include: Robert E. Howard's Conan and Kull stories Fritz Leiber's Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser stories Karl Edward Wagner's Kane stories Gardner F. Fox's stories of various characters like Niall and Kothar (though admittedly these aren't of the best quality) Much of Clark Ashton Smith's work Depending on what sort of campaign you want, I might not recommend the Elric stories. Many people, including myself in the past, consider them S&S, but the more I think about it the more I think they belong on the low end of High Fantasy rather than the high end of S&S. Reasonable minds may, of course, differ. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucius Posted February 19, 2013 Report Share Posted February 19, 2013 Re: Swords and Sorcery Setting I personally love Andre Norton's Witch World stories. But whatever you personally are using for inspiration, that's what you should give your players. Lucius Alexander The palindromedary says, we don't have to smoke it do we? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted February 19, 2013 Report Share Posted February 19, 2013 Re: Swords and Sorcery Setting I'm personally quite fond of the movie titled, appropriately enough, The Sword and the Sorceror. Not great art by any means, but colorful and fun, with imagery that influenced subsequent efforts in the genre. Depending on what sort of campaign you want' date=' I might not recommend the Elric stories. Many people, including myself in the past, consider them S&S, but the more I think about it the more I think they belong on the low end of High Fantasy rather than the high end of S&S. Reasonable minds may, of course, differ. [/quote'] Elric is kind of a mixed bag. Many of Moorcock's stories are definitely in the gritty, morally ambiguous vein one tends to think of for S&S. But others, particularly the novel-length Stormbringer which concludes Elric's saga, are about as "high" as fantasy gets, with direct battles against the gods for the fate of the world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted February 19, 2013 Report Share Posted February 19, 2013 Re: Swords and Sorcery Setting I personally love Andre Norton's Witch World stories. But whatever you personally are using for inspiration, that's what you should give your players. Norton's earlier stories in the Witch World series include the "magic vs. science" trope that often appears in her fiction, but if you ignore that they're a good depiction of a world with widespread low-powered magic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Long Posted February 19, 2013 Report Share Posted February 19, 2013 Re: Swords and Sorcery Setting Elric is kind of a mixed bag. Many of Moorcock's stories are definitely in the gritty, morally ambiguous vein one tends to think of for S&S. But others, particularly the novel-length Stormbringer which concludes Elric's saga, are about as "high" as fantasy gets, with direct battles against the gods for the fate of the world. Agreed. I think what tips it over the edge for me are (a) the frequent interactions with gods and similar beings, which is definitely more a feature of High Fantasy, and ( the presence of fairly powerful spells and magic items, again an HF feature rather than one of S&S. Though to be sure, S&S can feature characters who use magic. It just has to be done in the right way. I think Marrion Zimmer Bradley's stories of Lythande of the Blue Star are an excellent example. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted February 19, 2013 Report Share Posted February 19, 2013 Re: Swords and Sorcery Setting I have to say that Allen Thomas's take on S&S-style magic for The Valdorian Age setting book is IMHO the most successful effort to date at adapting HERO mechanics to capture the flavor of a particular genre. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhd Posted February 19, 2013 Report Share Posted February 19, 2013 Re: Swords and Sorcery Setting Agreed. I think what tips it over the edge for me are (a) the frequent interactions with gods and similar beings' date=' which is definitely more a feature of High Fantasy, and ( the presence of fairly powerful spells and magic items, again an HF feature rather than one of S&S.[/quote'] So that rules out Kane, too? Or even Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser (cf. Bazaar of the Bizarre). Heck, one might even make the argument for Conan, who meets a "god" pretty early in his career. While the borders always are a bit hazy, I thought that the motivations of the protagonist(s) were a better distinction between the genres. S&S being more personal, with Epic/High fantasy being more concerned with Fate, Saving the World and other Big Issues. Granted, going by that alone Cugel the Clever would be more Sword & Sorcery whereas David Gemmells variations of a theme tend towards the Epic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted February 20, 2013 Report Share Posted February 20, 2013 Re: Swords and Sorcery Setting So that rules out Kane' date=' too? Or even Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser (cf. Bazaar of the Bizarre). Heck, one might even make the argument for Conan, who meets a "god" pretty early in his career.[/quote'] As you point out, "god" in the case of Conan usually deserves to be in quotation marks. What Conan takes his sword to is most often some type of evil supernatural monster worshipped as a god by the ignorant or gullible. None of the above heroes actually does battle with a major god of one of the civilized peoples. While the borders always are a bit hazy' date=' I thought that the motivations of the protagonist(s) were a better distinction between the genres. S&S being more personal, with Epic/High fantasy being more concerned with Fate, Saving the World and other Big Issues. Granted, going by that alone Cugel the Clever would be more Sword & Sorcery whereas David Gemmells variations of a theme tend towards the Epic.[/quote'] I think that distinction has a lot of validity. After all, The Lord of the Rings is often held up as an icon of High Fantasy, but there isn't a lot of powerful magic on display during the story. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhd Posted February 20, 2013 Report Share Posted February 20, 2013 Re: Swords and Sorcery Setting None of the above heroes actually does battle with a major god of one of the civilized peoples. Sure, that definitely pushes it over the edge, I was merely contesting that divine interaction would seem possible for sword & sorcery, probably with the gods not being that special (either via the science-fantasy/Lovecraftian influence or because they're closer to the Greek/Norse gods than immutable universal forces incarnate). Although I have to admit to never liking the term "Epic Fantasy". At its core "epic" can just mean "long", which seems a bit of an arbitrary distinction. A Conan "fat trilogy" would certainly seem possible, if REH would've lived in a time with a different publication model for pulp fantasy. You could integrate a lot of the stories in one, erm, epic quest until he sits on the throne in the end. Not too dissimilar to e.g. Homeric epics, I think. Would this not count as Sword & Sorcery anymore? The "visual style" wouldn't deviate too much from the short stories. In a way, one could view S&S as "pre-/post-Christian Epic Fantasy". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Long Posted February 20, 2013 Report Share Posted February 20, 2013 Re: Swords and Sorcery Setting So that rules out Kane, too? Or even Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser (cf. Bazaar of the Bizarre). Heck, one might even make the argument for Conan, who meets a "god" pretty early in his career. It all depends on the nature and context of the interaction. "Meeting" a god is one thing. Frequently calling on them and negotiating with them is another. As with all things, it's a continuum. I discuss this in the "radial categories" blog post I linked above. While the borders always are a bit hazy, I thought that the motivations of the protagonist(s) were a better distinction between the genres. S&S being more personal, with Epic/High fantasy being more concerned with Fate, Saving the World and other Big Issues. Granted, going by that alone Cugel the Clever would be more Sword & Sorcery whereas David Gemmells variations of a theme tend towards the Epic. I agree that the motivations of the protagonists are important, but I wouldn't consider them the only (or even the most important) determinant. The setting/events, the magic level, and similar factors are, from my perspective at least, crucial considerations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markdoc Posted February 20, 2013 Report Share Posted February 20, 2013 Re: Swords and Sorcery Setting My own feeling is that the defining feature is sword and sorcery is how disputes are settled: if the heroes pretty much always react to problems with a piece of pointed metal or heavy wood, then you're looking at sword and sorcery. If some of them are just as likely (or more likely) to use magic, then you're looking at high fantasy. For me, the axis from gritty fantasy to epic fantasy actually deals with the scope of the story. Morality and length aren't a genre-defining featured by themselves, to my mind. So LotR is epic fantasy: the whole story is about doing in a world-threatening evil demi-god, after all, and the sweeping away of whole races. It's borderline S&S /High Fantasy - there's magic all right and one of the major protagonists is another demigod, but otherwise, political discussions are entirely carried out with good ol' fashioned fire and steel. In contrast, Fahrd and the Grey Mouser is classic S&S. Sure, the Mouser dabbles in sorcery, but it's never been anything but a source of trouble - and features in very few stories. When he has a philosophical disagreement with someone/thing, the standard rebuttal is carried out with a longish piece of sharpened steel. The fact that the two heroes have wizardly mentors and face a variety of fantastic foes (including Death), is not that important - it's sword and sorcery, after all, and for me, it's the actions of the heroes that define the genre. Sheela and Ningauble are doubtless powerful wizards (or demons), but they exist mostly as Deus ex Machinae: they don't do much except send our heroes off on quests and then gamble on their survival. Despite all the magic, I'd also call it gritty fantasy: yes, our Heroes try to steal the mask of Death himself, but they do so for personal gain, not for any high purpose, and in Death's house what do they do? Fight with swords, of course! By that definition, Elric (all of the Eternal Champion stories, really) are Epic High Fantasy. Yes, Elric makes much chop-chop, but he's doing it with an intelligent demon sword that kills gods, and exists in all times and across dimensions . He also intersperses swordwork with demon-summoning, dragon-awakening and the use of a wide variety of arcane devices. Corum is the same: going about with the bits of dead gods grafted onto his body, summoning the dead to kill his foes, and ending barbarian invasions not with cunning strategy and a bloodstained blade, but by summoning a flying city bristling with death-rays. Both of them are forced into adventures by fate and disaster, not a need for pocket-money. Conan might fight the occasional supernatural monster (OK, actually quite a lot of supernatural monsters) and even includes a wizard or two in his adventuring parties from time to time, but in his world, magic is for NPCs, and usually leads to a dodgy end. Heroes tread the jewelled thrones of the earth under their sandals armed with a sword, not a wand. These things are more than details: they lead to a very different style of story, and very different types of plotlines. By that definition, something like Game of Thrones is Epic Sword and Sorcery. The story is all about kings and the fate of kingdoms, so it's epic enough. And there's wizards, and giants and undead and dragons, an all. But in the end, every single protagonist (including the dead one!) except for Dænerys (some of the time) ends up settling scores with a rope, or poison, or sword or crossbow. Magic plays a big role, but it's a background role: something that happens around or to, protagonists, not something they do. For me that defines sword and sorcery. And again, by that definition, Cugel the Clever is a high fantasy character, despite the fact that his motivations are usually money, lust and revenge. Nifft the Lean, though existing in a similar world, and having similar motivations, to me at least is a S&S character. Both of them face fantastic foes, but unlike Cugel, with his assortment of dangerous magical gadgets and his lust for other people's magical powers, Nifft relies on his wits, nimble fingers and sword. This isn't just academic hair-splitting ... I think understanding the distinction is important for gaming, too. What's true of protagonists in books is also true of PCs. I've seen several GMs try to run a sword and sorcery style game (and have tried to do it myself, sometimes successfully). It "works" as S&S when the players have little or no access to magic, but while it might be a great game in terms of fun, it seems to lose that S&S style as soon as access to magic becomes routine. It doesn't even have to be very powerful magic to have that effect. Thieves' World is an excellent example: I've played in two campaigns set there, using different rules sets and we had us a rip-roaring good time. I think it's a great setting. But since PCs could be magic-users, it never really felt like Sword and Sorcery - instead it felt like (and played like) gritty high fantasy. We were, of course, thieves and lowlives (Robin Hood rather than Al Capone, but still) not mighty heroes. The plots tended to revolve around heists, loot and revenge, not the clash of good and evil. But swords were usually the weapon of last resort, to be drawn only when cunning sorcery had failed us. It was no more swords and sorcery than your typical dungeon crawl is. And it's interesting to note that the fiction of Thieves' World, despite being hailed as a swords and sorcery setting, followed exactly the same arc as our games: when it started it was all about low lives and hidden blades, but it swiftly became all about the magic users and divine powers. And the first series of novels ended the same way as many RPG games: once you get to the point where main characters are going toe to toe with the gods, it's time to end the campaign and start again. cheers, Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killer Shrike Posted February 20, 2013 Report Share Posted February 20, 2013 Re: Swords and Sorcery Setting In addition to many of the books already mentioned (but a special shout out for thieves world), I would suggest you check out David Gemmel and Joe Ambercrombie. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Abercrombie http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Gemmel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhd Posted February 20, 2013 Report Share Posted February 20, 2013 Re: Swords and Sorcery Setting I can also recommend the "El Mercenario" comics by Vicente Segrelles. Every panel being an actual oil painting, they're quite stunning. Most Sword & Sandal movies are good inspirations, especially if they contain some Harryhausen magic, but most fantasy versions released in the wake of the first Conan movie are a bit disappointing(and that includes the Conan sequel itself). I kinda liked Beastmaster, that movie with the two "barbarian" wrestlers and the one with the magic bow and the snake people. Also, well, . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluesguy Posted February 25, 2013 Report Share Posted February 25, 2013 Re: Swords and Sorcery Setting Sword and Sorcery movies Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhd Posted February 25, 2013 Report Share Posted February 25, 2013 Re: Swords and Sorcery Setting Sword and Sorcery movies Not sure by what definition they seem to be going, as I certainly wouldn't rate movies like Krull, Excalibur or the Black Cauldron amongst S&S. Never mind Orson Welles' Macbeth… Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jrandom Posted February 26, 2013 Author Report Share Posted February 26, 2013 Re: Swords and Sorcery Setting Thank you to Steve and everyone else for all of the great info. The "Sword and the Sorcerer" was an epic movie when I was a kid. Thanks for pulling that one out. Gonna look for it on Netflicks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndianaJoe3 Posted February 27, 2013 Report Share Posted February 27, 2013 Re: Swords and Sorcery Setting If you're looking for the original Conan stories, the REH Omnibus is available very cheaply for Nook (and maybe Kindle, but I don't own one). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tkdguy Posted February 27, 2013 Report Share Posted February 27, 2013 Re: Swords and Sorcery Setting How about The Stone Thing by Michael Moorcock, high fantasy or sword & sorcery (definitely not epic)? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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