Vondy Posted November 4, 2003 Report Share Posted November 4, 2003 Originally posted by Agent X What is he says my full strength flying brick knows kung fu because blah blah blah? Then I would tell him to buy skill levels and call the kung fu an SFX. He doesn't need the DC bonuses, which is what players who do this are almost invariably going for. I'd probably also allow manuevers that only affected CVs, but they'd have to convince me of its genre validity. I'm not a fan of blah, blah, blah, which is usually translated as twink bull-puckey. My compiler's conversion script is touchy due to my BS detector being extremely sensitive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent X Posted November 4, 2003 Report Share Posted November 4, 2003 Originally posted by D-Man Then I would tell him to buy skill levels and call the kung fu an SFX. He doesn't need the DC bonuses, which is what players who do this are almost invariably going for. I'd probably also allow manuevers that only affected CVs, but they'd have to convince me of its genre validity. I'm not a fan of blah, blah, blah, which is usually translated as twink bull-puckey. My compiler's conversion script is touchy due to my BS detector being extremely sensitive. I hope you don't go overboard with this. I've been annoyed by a few GMs who saw something on my character sheet that reminded them of something they didn't like from a past construction and responded as if my character was the previous character. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vondy Posted November 4, 2003 Report Share Posted November 4, 2003 Originally posted by Agent X I hope you don't go overboard with this. I've been annoyed by a few GMs who saw something on my character sheet that reminded them of something they didn't like from a past construction and responded as if my character was the previous character. Don't play in my games and you won't have to be annoyed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent X Posted November 4, 2003 Report Share Posted November 4, 2003 Originally posted by D-Man Don't play in my games and you won't have to be annoyed. That was a little touchy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vondy Posted November 4, 2003 Report Share Posted November 4, 2003 Originally posted by Agent X That was a little touchy. How so? Its a simple factual statement. Not all players are a good fit for all games or gamemasters. Our differences over design philosophy (as evidenced in your comments about my design style in the "sun's damage" thread) are such that we wouldn't see eye-to-eye if we attempted to engage in our mutual hobby together. I don't have a problem with that. I've attended more than one session with a group where it was the only session I attended. I know what I like, and what I don't like. My players have never complained, and are still with me a decade later, so I have to assume I haven't "overdone it." Then again - they prefer I build the characters so they can concentrate on development and story. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rage Posted November 4, 2003 Report Share Posted November 4, 2003 Originally posted by Agent X That was a little touchy. YOU CALL THAT TOUCHY?? THATS NOT TOUCHY THIS IS TOUCHY!!! I'LL TOUCH YOU IN A MINUTE!!!!! ::: Shakes fist in a touchy feely type way ::: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phydaux Posted November 4, 2003 Report Share Posted November 4, 2003 Originally posted by JmOz Think of it like the Dirty Infighting style: He knows a style but it is not an actual traied style, it comes from tons of experience If it just comes from tons of experience, then it's Combat Skill Levels, NOT Martial Arts. And if you're going to invoke something Clark Kent did for a few issues back when I was a kid reading in the 70's and say it impacts Supe's character sheet now, then Superman isn't JUST a 1000 point character, he's a 1000 point character with 1000 XPs gained since the 30s when he first showed up in print. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent X Posted November 4, 2003 Report Share Posted November 4, 2003 Originally posted by phydaux If it just comes from tons of experience, then it's Combat Skill Levels, NOT Martial Arts. And if you're going to invoke something Clark Kent did for a few issues back when I was a kid reading in the 70's and say it impacts Supe's character sheet now, then Superman isn't JUST a 1000 point character, he's a 1000 point character with 1000 XPs gained since the 30s when he first showed up in print. How do you think any martial maneuvers were created? Through experience. If he gained 3 xp per comic book since Action Comics #1 his xp total would be a lot higher than that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phydaux Posted November 4, 2003 Report Share Posted November 4, 2003 Originally posted by Agent X How do you think any martial maneuvers were created? Through experience. See, I see it as a guy saying to himself "Now I'm not near as tough or as strong as Ol' Jim Bob from down yonder, but I's just know one o' these days Ol' Jim Bob is gonna try n' wrassle me up good for selling him that dried-up ol' milk cow. I wonder if I tried ducking n' moving would it help me none?" And thus Red Neck Fu was born. If you're already big n' tough, then you don't need Red Neck Fu, just skill levels in "Punchin' n' Kickin'" will do. So THAT is my in-genera reason. On a meta-game level, if some bonehead hands me a character sheet, and I see 50 STR, 27 DEX, 30 PD&ED and a few select martial meneuvers just to get the DCs and DCV bonuses for only 10 more points, then I'm going to reject the character and call the player a weedy, min/maxing git. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oruncrest Posted November 4, 2003 Report Share Posted November 4, 2003 Originally posted by Agent X He knew martial arts back in Pre-Crisis days. Remember the adventures of Nightwing and Flamebird? Pre-CRISIS, little Kal-El was able to learn the basics of Kluxor before he was rocket-mailed to the Kents. It actually came in handy in an issue of The New Adventures of Superboy . Lois Lane knows Kluxor as well, but I don't know if she learned it from Clark, or if she learned it during a time-travel story. Recently, it's been revealed that Clark knows some sort of Kryptonian martial art. Given the philosopical bent that was placed on it, I'd assume that it was the Kryptonian version of Tao Chi. He was teacing it to Lois a couple years back in Adventures of Superman. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent X Posted November 4, 2003 Report Share Posted November 4, 2003 Originally posted by phydaux See, I see it as a guy saying to himself "Now I'm not near as tough or as strong as Ol' Jim Bob from down yonder, but I's just know one o' these days Ol' Jim Bob is gonna try n' wrassle me up good for selling him that dried-up ol' milk cow. I wonder if I tried ducking n' moving would it help me none?" And thus Red Neck Fu was born. If you're already big n' tough, then you don't need Red Neck Fu, just skill levels in "Punchin' n' Kickin'" will do. So THAT is my in-genera reason. On a meta-game level, if some bonehead hands me a character sheet, and I see 50 STR, 27 DEX, 30 PD&ED and a few select martial meneuvers just to get the DCs and DCV bonuses for only 10 more points, then I'm going to reject the character and call the player a weedy, min/maxing git. I look at the whole character and see how it all fits together and try to keep prejudices out of my analysis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winterhawk Posted November 4, 2003 Report Share Posted November 4, 2003 Originally posted by phydaux So THAT is my in-genera reason. On a meta-game level, if some bonehead hands me a character sheet, and I see 50 STR, 27 DEX, 30 PD&ED and a few select martial meneuvers just to get the DCs and DCV bonuses for only 10 more points, then I'm going to reject the character and call the player a weedy, min/maxing git. I would totally agree with you...and its been tried with me. I would do this: "Ok, your flying brick wants kung-fu? Who is going to train him? Do you know how long it takes to learn even basic manuevers so that they are effective?" I know there are trained martial artists on this board. I'm sure they will attest to the fact that they couldn't perform the art they learned in a combat situation after the first lesson. So stretch it out. Let them buy one manuever after a month of "You must learn how to fall first" and getting their a$$es kicked by a true master of the discipline. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phydaux Posted November 4, 2003 Report Share Posted November 4, 2003 Originally posted by Agent X I look at the whole character and see how it all fits together and try to keep prejudices out of my analysis. I’m only prejudice against weedy, min/maxing gits. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnOSpencer Posted November 4, 2003 Author Report Share Posted November 4, 2003 Thank's for all the responses! I've decided to keep martial arts but limit them as D-Man and others have suggested. I don't believe that every experienced super hero should possibly have martial arts. I do think they have several CSLs of some variety. I just don't see all of them getting the time to learn "actual" martial arts. John Spencer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vondy Posted November 4, 2003 Report Share Posted November 4, 2003 Originally posted by phydaux I’m only prejudice against weedy, min/maxing gits. Indeed! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JmOz Posted November 5, 2003 Report Share Posted November 5, 2003 Originally posted by JohnOSpencer Thank's for all the responses! I've decided to keep martial arts but limit them as D-Man and others have suggested. I don't believe that every experienced super hero should possibly have martial arts. I do think they have several CSLs of some variety. I just don't see all of them getting the time to learn "actual" martial arts. John Spencer Your game, your views: I just don't see having martial arts skills as the same as being trained in an actual MA, it might just be having learned how to fight well (A subtle difference) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
misterdeath Posted November 5, 2003 Report Share Posted November 5, 2003 Is the character good at fighting, instinctively or through training hitting harder, faster, better than he normally would? Then buy some martial arts Maneuvers. If he's really good at throwing a punch, buy some CSLs, call it "Martial Arts" and away you go. 12 points, Martial Block, Martial Dodge, Martial Strike vs 4 CSL w Strike, Block, Dodge. You lose damage, but gain absolute CV values (I can block at + 4 OCV instead of being forced to have +2 OCV and DCV. I can dodge with +7 net DCV instead of + 5). The CSLs are probably a better bet for the guy pushing any DC limit you have. Martial Arts are better for the guy with high CVs and not so much damage potential. I guess it all depends on what you're trying to model. To me, the Martial Arts system is the reason why I got into Hero in the first place. To not use it, seems... wrong somehow. Plus, even if I was EB boy, I'd be taking some self defence classes, (or just using the stuff I already have) just in case I ever got into fisticuffs. D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent Escafarc Posted November 5, 2003 Report Share Posted November 5, 2003 Originally posted by misterdeath Plus, even if I was EB boy, I'd be taking some self defence classes, (or just using the stuff I already have) just in case I ever got into fisticuffs. D How about a flying, energy projecting, learns languages with sexual contact, brick babe with martial arts: Starfire! she does it all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent X Posted November 5, 2003 Report Share Posted November 5, 2003 I'm still amazed that some of you guys want to wed an effect to a narrow sfx. If I want to design a character who, through experience, has learned to hit someone in the vulnerables or choke someone or just plain hit someone really hard, I see no reason why martial arts can't be a choice because the character didn't go to martial arts school on a regular basis. I try to envision what the character is capable of and find the best purchases to reach that vision. The best is not defined by "min max gittiness" but by pragmatism. If martial arts or 8 point combat skill levels will accomplish this goal, I might choose martial arts because it gives me more options to simulate the characters' abilities such as choke, trip, etc. - or because I don't want to do that much Skill Level math all the time. What makes martial arts different from anything else in the game and requires it to have a very specific, very limited source of special effects to justify its purchase? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lightray Posted November 5, 2003 Report Share Posted November 5, 2003 Originally posted by Agent X What makes martial arts different from anything else in the game and requires it to have a very specific, very limited source of special effects to justify its purchase? It's a Skill, not a Power? I'm actually quite lenient in my campaign if people want to pick up a few Martial Arts maneuvers (so long as they stay under the DC caps), but they do need to spend the time training at it. Given the "Brick Tricks" and "Speedster Martial Arts" examples in UMA, though, we're obviously intended to be inventive with using them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent X Posted November 5, 2003 Report Share Posted November 5, 2003 Originally posted by Lightray It's a Skill, not a Power? I'm actually quite lenient in my campaign if people want to pick up a few Martial Arts maneuvers (so long as they stay under the DC caps), but they do need to spend the time training at it. Given the "Brick Tricks" and "Speedster Martial Arts" examples in UMA, though, we're obviously intended to be inventive with using them. I didn't know they had made a distinction between skills and powers when reasoning to effect? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Negative Posted November 5, 2003 Report Share Posted November 5, 2003 Originally posted by Agent X I'm still amazed that some of you guys want to wed an effect to a narrow sfx... If martial arts or 8 point combat skill levels will accomplish this goal, I might choose martial arts because it gives me more options to simulate the characters' abilities such as choke, trip, etc. - or because I don't want to do that much Skill Level math all the time. What makes martial arts different from anything else in the game and requires it to have a very specific, very limited source of special effects to justify its purchase? EXACTLY RIGHT!!!! This is made quite explicit in the UMA book with maneuvers such as the "Chin Block" where the PC doesn't actually "block" the attack, but takes it right on the chin in such a way that it doesn't do damage. To further amplify this point, there are abilities in the Martial Arts that are not currently duplicated in any other section of the HERO system, such as the Shove, Bind, and Takeaway Maneuvers, as well as the Maneuver Element "Target Falls". If you wanted, for example, to make a character who could trip people with her lashing tail, you could either write up some involved Power (Energy Blast, no Body or Stun, only to cause Knockdown), or simply learn a maneuver like Legsweep. Why insist that a player do the first, especially when the second is so much simpler? Martial Arts is a "title", just like Desolidification, or Flight. It shouldn't necessitate representing actual training in an actual martial arts style any more than Flight has to represent flapping wings. If the speedster can run up walls with "Flight", then the Brick can learn Martial Maneuvers. Now, it may still be that the Brick is using Maneuvers to circumvent game restrictions on DCs, or OCV, or whatever. That is a separate issue, and applies to every character, whether they are using Martial Arts, Limited Skill Levels, Attributes as Powers, or whatever. Good character conception is also a valid concern (especially within the group), as the Brick martial artist may be "invading the turf" of the regular martial artist. Stepping on other people's specialties can spoil the fun, but this problem is not unique to Martial Arts, either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kristopher Posted November 5, 2003 Report Share Posted November 5, 2003 Originally posted by Agent Escafarc How about a flying, energy projecting, learns languages with sexual contact, brick babe with martial arts: Starfire! she does it all. I didn't read Teen Titans, so I have to ask, is this for real? Geez, what has Cartoon Network gotten themselves into? Who "taught" Starfire English Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent Escafarc Posted November 5, 2003 Report Share Posted November 5, 2003 Originally posted by Kristopher I didn't read Teen Titans, so I have to ask, is this for real? Geez, what has Cartoon Network gotten themselves into? Who "taught" Starfire English This is for real though in truth it's just any physical contact for her to learn. It's just that in the first issue of The New Teen Titans she learns English by kissing Robin so the image has stuck:D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pattern Ghost Posted November 5, 2003 Report Share Posted November 5, 2003 So, is the new Teen Titans a reboot? Or just for some of the characters like Starfire? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.