melessqr Posted November 5, 2003 Report Share Posted November 5, 2003 FREd, Page 118 Growth "...Growth is for characters who can alter their size; if the character is exceptionally large all the time, he can simulate that by buying various Powers with that special effect (see page 85)." I've got a character that was supposed to have 1 level of Growh on all the time (be exceptionally large all the time) and have 2 more levels of Growth that he can turn on and off... so, when fully grown, he's have 3 levels of growth, and be +3 Body, +3 Stun, -2 DCV, +2 Per Roll Against, +1 Hexes Reach, +15 Str... Body and Stun... no problem... but +1 each 'ungrown'... Reach? 1 inch of reach linked to Growth, only useable when the power is used at max strength... But, how the Heck do I buy the -2 DCV, and +2 Perception Roll Against linked to Growth, only useable with the power is used at Max Strength? It shouldn't be this complex... it isn't this complex if you just buy 1 level of Growth 'Always On'... but that's not how it's supposed to be done. Melessqr Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Goodwin Posted November 5, 2003 Report Share Posted November 5, 2003 You've run into another Long-ism. I'm not quite exactly clear on how it's done either. You can pick up the Bestiary, Star Hero, or (I think) Fantasy Hero. Essentially you can do it with a Physical Limitation, though you supposedly can do the DCV penalty with negative skill levels as well (-1 DCV for -5 points). Personally, I'd just house rule it that you can do Growth Always On. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Posted November 5, 2003 Report Share Posted November 5, 2003 So buy the 1st level of growth the way Steve Long suggests. Then buy two levels of growth as normal. Just move the Character up one slot on the growth chart, to reflect his big starting size.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pattern Ghost Posted November 5, 2003 Report Share Posted November 5, 2003 Ignore the rule and buy one level of Growth always on. Besides, it says "he can" not "he must" so it's not a hard and fast rule. (I wonder if HD will let you buy Growth and Shrinking always on?) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killer Shrike Posted November 5, 2003 Report Share Posted November 5, 2003 Originally posted by Rick So buy the 1st level of growth the way Steve Long suggests. Then buy two levels of growth as normal. Just move the Character up one slot on the growth chart, to reflect his big starting size.. Agreed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lightray Posted November 5, 2003 Report Share Posted November 5, 2003 The new rules for permanent size changes bugged my group, too, so we're ignoring that bit also. When you buy your Growth - 0 END - Persistent - Always On, you may want to consider also adding Inherent. Otherwise you run into the oddity of having your natural height Suppressable or Drainable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killer Shrike Posted November 5, 2003 Report Share Posted November 5, 2003 Actually, the Phys Lim way for permanently big or small characters does make sense. You take the down side as a limitation, and purchase the upside up to the level you wish. It de-couples two related but dissimilar aspects of a character and prevents you from having to apply an Advantage to a Power just so that you can limit it (i.e. 0 END Per, Always On). I prefer the Steve way actually, and think its a "good thing". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melessqr Posted November 5, 2003 Author Report Share Posted November 5, 2003 Think I'm just going to buy the first level of Growth as Always On... Thanks for the Inherent tip, I wouldn't have thought of that. Seems like every "Longism" I'm running into does little other than add complexity and bookeeping. Melessqr Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
schir1964 Posted November 5, 2003 Report Share Posted November 5, 2003 Melessqr, I created a document concerning the idea of a Size Stat. Within there is a chart that gives a list of things that are related to different size characters. You might some ideas useful. The chart itself is a good reference for determining what different size humans would have as far as abilities. If you want, I can email it to you for perusal. Just contact me via schir1964@netzero.net address. - Christopher Mullins Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lupus Posted November 5, 2003 Report Share Posted November 5, 2003 Originally posted by melessqr Think I'm just going to buy the first level of Growth as Always On... Thanks for the Inherent tip, I wouldn't have thought of that. Seems like every "Longism" I'm running into does little other than add complexity and bookeeping. Melessqr *shrugs* This is HERO system, the land of much bookkeeping. The idea of taking a phys lim and buying stats normally sounds to me like less bookkeeping rather than more, anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killer Shrike Posted November 5, 2003 Report Share Posted November 5, 2003 Originally posted by Lupus *shrugs* This is HERO system, the land of much bookkeeping. The idea of taking a phys lim and buying stats normally sounds to me like less bookkeeping rather than more, anyway. Ditto. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted November 5, 2003 Report Share Posted November 5, 2003 Yeah, the thing about Growth is that it's a package of benefits and drawbacks, which is fine if you are satisfied with having all of those things. The method that Steve Long has designed allows for much greater customizability, so that you can pick and choose which abilities you want your permanently larger or smaller character to have based on concept. For the record, though, I have no problem with one of my players taking Growth 0 END Persistent Inherent, Always On, if he or she prefers the whole package. I do think that Steve went a little overboard in discouraging that approach so strongly, but I suspect that he was prompted partly by a desire to divert people from thinking that that was the way it had to be done, based on years of past precedent from published characters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
austenandrews Posted November 5, 2003 Report Share Posted November 5, 2003 I don't have a problem with buying great size without Growth. I do think the book needs to explain clearly exactly how to do that. At least make it a sidebar on the Growth page. -AA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Posted November 5, 2003 Report Share Posted November 5, 2003 The funny thing is that buying 1 level growth always on, and the benefits separately, costs the same points. 1 level growth 0 end persistent inherent always on is 11 active and 7 real points vs: +5 str no figured 3 pts +1 body +1 stun 2 pts +1" knockback resistance 2 pts. Total 7 pts. The double mass isn't enough to warrant any physical limitation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kristopher Posted November 5, 2003 Report Share Posted November 5, 2003 Originally posted by Gary The funny thing is that buying 1 level growth always on, and the benefits separately, costs the same points. 1 level growth 0 end persistent inherent always on is 11 active and 7 real points vs: +5 str no figured 3 pts +1 body +1 stun 2 pts +1" knockback resistance 2 pts. Total 7 pts. Huh. I wonder if that was on purpose or something... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monolith Posted November 5, 2003 Report Share Posted November 5, 2003 Originally posted by melessqr Seems like every "Longism" I'm running into does little other than add complexity and bookeeping. What's more complicated, taking: 1 level Growth +1/2 0 END +1/2 Persistent +1/4 Inherent -1/2 Always On or taking: Physical Limitation (7' tall -1 DCV and PER)? I would think it is just easier to take the Physical Limitation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melessqr Posted November 5, 2003 Author Report Share Posted November 5, 2003 What's more complicated, taking: 1 level Growth +1/2 0 END +1/2 Persistent +1/4 Inherent -1/2 Always On or taking: Physical Limitation (7' tall -1 DCV and PER)? I would think it is just easier to take the Physical Limitation. Doesn't matter anymore... I've changed the character conception to conform to the mechanics... which is easier than having the mechanics model the character conception. Melessqr Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zaratustra Posted November 5, 2003 Report Share Posted November 5, 2003 Also, the stat bonuses Growth gives don't always fit the character's 'Powers From Being Tall' list. Is Galactor, The Eater Of Worlds With A Side Order of Moon, with his 4 kilometers of height, exactly like a normal human except with a 165 STR, 33 BODY and 33 STUN bonus? No, he'll get extra PD, ED, PRE, INT if he wants to use his brain the size of a planet, Area Effect on his STR and so on. The Growth power is more of a 'Gain STR, BODY and STUN with the SFX of being big' power. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tesuji Posted November 5, 2003 Report Share Posted November 5, 2003 "Doesn't matter anymore... I've changed the character conception to conform to the mechanics... which is easier than having the mechanics model the character conception." Thats HERO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melessqr Posted November 5, 2003 Author Report Share Posted November 5, 2003 Thats HERO. But not what HERO's supposed to be, eh? Melessqr Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monolith Posted November 5, 2003 Report Share Posted November 5, 2003 Originally posted by melessqr But not what HERO's supposed to be, eh? He will tell you that M&M is the perfect game, so best not to go there. Hero has always been about mechanics, and 99% of the time the mechanics work. The problem you are having right now is versonitis. Most of us went through this 18 months ago. There are changes and differences between 4th and 5th. What you really need to do is try to look at the changes with fresh eyes, not with eyes that are just accustomed to doing it a different way the last 20 years. Initially I hated the Growth change, but after using it a few times, in a few different genre games, I actually came to prefer it over buying x levels of Growth with all the advantages and Limitation. It just fits better now than it did in the past because you have more character-type options available to you. Give it a try a few times, you might find that it works better too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Goodwin Posted November 5, 2003 Report Share Posted November 5, 2003 Does the Long way make it more fun? I'd rather just put "X levels of Growth" and be done with it, because I know that makes me Y height and Z mass. I don't have to work all of that crap out and then figure out how much of a Physical Limitation it's worth. (What's "8 meters tall, 50 tons" worth as a Physical Limitation? How about "16 meters tall, 400 tons?") I was also annoyed because the handy dandy List O' Sizes wasn't in the core book, but it apparently is in just about every other Hero System book that has come out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tesuji Posted November 5, 2003 Report Share Posted November 5, 2003 First off, in spite of propaganda to the contrary, i have never told anyone MnM is a perfect game. It would be silly of me to do so given I have my own house rules in play for it. But, since i dont intend to let the usual "slander the poster to distract things" tricks derail me... Originally posted by melessqr But not what HERO's supposed to be, eh? Melessqr I would ask here "do you mean "supposed to be" based on the words used to describe it, or based on what it has been and continues to be? Even when i was running HERO, using it for fantasy and supers and putting more GM time in over a period from early to mid 80's to 2003, mostly 4th edition, one of the problems I saw with PUBLISHED HERO was that it seemed to be much more about making the game fit the system and not the other way round. Whether its Western HERo, CyberHERO, Fantasy HERO (4th) they all had the feel of the supers game and the genre seemed to be bent to fit the system much more than the other way round. So i would answer that, based on tradition going back some 15+ years, yes that is exactly how HERo is supposed to be. For 5e, I cannot say things have changed all that much except that HERO seems even more focused towards the hardcore HERO guys and as such seems to be even more mechanics oriented. However, it feels a little schizo because there seems to be some mismatches between designers expressions and product results. Still, it is selling well it seems to the hardcore remaining followers so i cannot fault the decision to design around that "buyer preference." It means HERo is less useful to me, and for the first time in decades HERo products have dropped out of my "automatic purchase" list and frankly as far down as my "will rarely consider purchasing" list, but if they kept most of the hardcore guys they wont miss my money. IMO, since 4e, if you want a game where the system is wrapped around the genre, and not the other way round, you need to look to GENRE specific systems. I find GENREic systems to produce more accurate feel and produce a lot less "concept sacrifices" than GENERIC ones... even though, like i said, i used this generic system extensively for many many years. As an aisde, for those who like cross-genre games, a generic system would be a better notion than trying to make two GENREic systems work together. portability is a big advantage of GENERIC systems. It just is one that has no value for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tesuji Posted November 5, 2003 Report Share Posted November 5, 2003 Originally posted by archer I was also annoyed because the handy dandy List O' Sizes wasn't in the core book, but it apparently is in just about every other Hero System book that has come out. What? You mean "go buy the bestiary" wasn't good enough an answer for how to do what the core book tells you? You expect too much. Ok sarcasm off, I agree. The examples and details for such a noticeable change to CORE RULES should have been in the core rules, not in secondary products. Even if the decision was not made to better sell that bestiary, it sure smelled like it was. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kristopher Posted November 5, 2003 Report Share Posted November 5, 2003 As I'm sitting here thinking about it, I kinda like the Disads solution. From a purely mechanical standpoint, it's not always easy to come up with that last Disad or two. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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