Effective, but Simple Rule of X (is it possible)

[Tasha]

"Rule of X" is a way to diversify character's damage, Defenses and CV while still staying within a certain budget of resources. The idea is to allow someone who wants to play high CV characters to be able to balance vs High DC, High Def, low CV characters. I have seen some insane ways people try to calculate this. Complicated is something that we don't need. This is a way to still have caps, but not have everyone doing the exact damage/cv etc.

 

I am looking for something that gets people close enough, but is still fairly understandable to new players.

 

first try:
CV (Avg OCV and DCV) + Spd + DC + ((avg PD&ED)/5)  =  CV (Avg OCV and DCV) + Spd + DC + (PD+ED/10)

 

Am I missing something huge? Is there some SIMPLE other way that this can be approached.

Be Constructive, help me brainstorm here.

[Christougher]

The one I've used is rather similar to your proposal, with a couple other added factors:

 

SPD*2 + OCV + DCs + DCV + (PD+ED)/4 + Stun/10

 

Damage Reduction was figured into Stun.

 

Chris.

[Tasha]

The one I've used is rather similar to your proposal, with a couple other added factors:

 

SPD*2 + OCV + DCs + DCV + (PD+ED)/4 + Stun/10

 

Damage Reduction was figured into Stun.

 

Chris.

Ok, explain how you came up with that?

 

So .5 SPD = 1 OCV = 1DC = 2pts def = 10 stun. Hmmmm. Does anyone have enough math and brain cells to actually run these numbers (and mine) and see if we are onto something? (I have the math on a good day, and that's not today      )

Thanks Chris!

[Beast]

I like 42

10 dcv

10 ocv

12DC's

6 spd

pd/13 =2

ed/13=2

[Tasha]

I like 42

10 dcv

10 ocv

12DC's

6 spd

pd/13 =2

ed/13=2

Is that using my Equation, Christougher's or your own?

I am hoping we can refine a good rule of X equation that is generally useful.

[Tasha]

One thing I have thought about is increasing how important Def is. 3pts of Def pretty much negate 1 DC of Damage. Also is it important to cap Stun totals by incorporating them into the Rule of X, like Christougher does?

CV (Avg OCV and DCV) + Spd + DC + ((avg PD&ED)/3)  =  CV (Avg OCV and DCV) + Spd + DC + (PD+ED/6)
which is how the new version would look.

 

What I consider a Typical DC 12 game would give a number of 10+5+12+24 =35, Typical DC 10 game would be 9+5+10+22 =32

Edited January 10, 2014 by Tasha

[Beast]

probably influence by them and the old rating system from Adventures Club

Is that using my Equation, Christougher's or your own?
I am hoping we can refine a good rule of X equation that is generally useful.

[Tasha]

One thing I have thought about is increasing how important Def is. 3pts of Def pretty much negate 1 DC of Damage. Also is it important to cap Stun totals by incorporating them into the Rule of X, like Christougher does?

 

CV (Avg OCV and DCV) + Spd + DC + ((avg PD&ED)/3)  =  CV (Avg OCV and DCV) + Spd + DC + (PD+ED/6)

which is how the new version would look.

 

What I consider a Typical DC 12 game would give a number of 10+5+12+24 =35, Typical DC 10 game would be 9+5+10+22 =32

No I think I am undervaluing SPD. IIRC from my other research 1pt of Spd is probably worth 2dc's on average.

 

CV (Avg OCV and DCV) + Spd*2 + DC + ((avg PD&ED)/3)  =  CV (Avg OCV and DCV) + Spd*2 + DC + (PD+ED/6)

[Tasha]

probably influence by them and the old rating system from Adventures Club

 

Could you share the equation you used to get to 42?

[Beast]

I started w/ the answer and worked backwards

as we all know 42 is the answer

 

Could you share the equation you used to get to 42?

[Beast]

10ocv + 10dcv + 12 DC's + 6 spd +(2=pd/13)+ (2=ed/ 13) = 42

 

average PD/ED in this case is 26 each

a brick could go speed 4 and raise pd/ed to 39
a speedster could  go speed 8 and be 10 DC's

 

just need plug in the wanted areas to excel in and go lower in others

[Tasha]

         Martial Artist    Energy Proj      Brick         Speedster

OCV	13	11	9	11
DCV	13	9	6	14
SPD	6	5	4	7
DC	9	12	14	8
PD	19	24	32	17
ED	19	24	32	17
								
Con	24	19	11	26   =DC12*3.5dmg - Avg Def
OCV	13	11	9	11
DCV	13	9	6	14
SPD	6	5	4	7
PD	19	24	32	17
ED	19	24	32	17
REC	13.5	18	21	12   =Character DC x 1.5
END	54	60	56	56   = DC x SPD (2 powers for 1 turn)

The first set of numbers were derived by using 40 as the target for the Rule of X using
CV (Avg OCV and DCV) + Spd + DC + (PD+ED/6) as the Equation.

The second set of numbers are derived from my below Linked "How to create a hero System character" and express minimums to not suck.
Ok I can see why putting STUN in the equation might be important. The ability to take 3 hits is important and it might be good to turn some stun into a bit more Def.

[Beast]

Might want to factor in Con also and figure on a Con+ def= dazing @ 25% on an average 12dc roll

 

so much for simple

[Tasha]

Might want to factor in Con also and figure on a Con+ def= dazing @ 25% on an average 12dc roll

 

so much for simple

Actually I tend to factor Con in another part of Char Gen. I recommend that most Players give PC's at least enough con to take an average hit without being Stunned. So an average attack in a dc 12 game does 42pts of damage Subtract Def and add one to the number ie an energy projector with 24 def should have at least a Con of 19 to avoid being stunned by an average damage attack.

[bluesguy]

Could you share the equation you used to get to 42?

 

Maybe it has something to do with Answer to the Ultimate Question of Life, the Universe and Everything....

[Derek Hiemforth]

Ideally, I think you'd want each element in the equation to generally be close to equal.  For example, say you've got one character with CV 8, SPD 5, DC 12, and a PD+ED/5 of 5, and a second character of CV 7, SPD 8, DC 11, and a PD+ED/5 of 4.  By the formula, they'd be "equal."  But because the second character increased their SPD substantially by lowering their other three factors slightly, they're not that equal at all.  This kind of tomfoolery is a little harder to manage if each element in the equation is "weighted" the same. 

[Tasha]

Ideally, I think you'd want each element in the equation to generally be close to equal.  For example, say you've got one character with CV 8, SPD 5, DC 12, and a PD+ED/5 of 5, and a second character of CV 7, SPD 8, DC 11, and a PD+ED/5 of 4.  By the formula, they'd be "equal."  But because the second character increased their SPD substantially by lowering their other three factors slightly, they're not that equal at all.  This kind of tomfoolery is a little harder to manage if each element in the equation is "weighted" the same. 

I know from running numbers that 1DC  isn't quite equal to 1 SPD. On average 1 SPD is roughly equivalent to 2 DC's or so. The problem is, nothing is really linear in the system. I know that 3PD or 3ed pretty much negates 1 DC

 

I guess my stun issue could be solved by decreeing that Martial Artists and Speedsters should be able to take 1 attack at average DC without being Knocked out (perhaps 1.25x what would get though with an average roll of 42 STUN). Energy Projectors (and Mentalists) should be able to take 2 hits of the same damage (or up to 3x), and Bricks should be able to take 4 to 6 hits.

 

The problem I see is that I am not sure that anyone has really analyzed how you build characters. Perhaps they did and I haven't noticed.

 

PS please weigh in with an equation   I am really looking for help. As you can tell I am brainstorming and thinking as I write.

[ghost-angel]

I haven't really gone deep into this one, because I'm not a huge fan of the idea of Rule Of X in general. I like ranges.

 

But, if we want to talk simply about Damage and Damage Mitigation, I don't think adding Speed in is a good idea. Sure, Speed allows you to Attack more, but that's not all it allows, and it has neither an inherent Offensive of Defensive Value.

 

Because when the pavement hits the road, if you have a 12 Speed but not enough Endurance to use 12 Attacks a Turn, you don't really have a 12 Speed for the purposes this kind of Rule Of X. So you either add in Endurance and Endurance Costs to the equation (complicating it). Or you remove Speed.

 

I'd be in favor of Removing Speed. As Derek pointed out, raising Speed significantly above the norm (or campaign average) can bring you down enough in other areas as to actually be ineffective combatively.

[Kraven Kor]

SPD can always be used for abort-to defensive actions which may or may not require END usage.

 

No "Rule of X" is ever going to be a completely infallible way of comparing two characters, but SPD should definitely be a factor.

 

I would recommend using the Active Points of (edit) the highest defensive and offensive powers rather than just the dice of damage or DC's though.  Will / might better reflect advantaged attacks / defenses?  Dunno.  

 

Is 15 rDEF < 15 rDEF (Hardened), in this light?

[ghost-angel]

If Speed is so important why isn't Dex?

 

After all, just going first was deemed so important that DEX costs twice as much as any other Primary Stat.

 

There seems to be a reasoning I'm not seeing that includes taking actions, but not the order in which you appear in the sequence.

[Nolgroth]

I always wanted some sort of Rule of X to work, but I don't think that you can capture the nuances between CV and DC vs. Defense with something so simple. I have found that I prefer the guidelines presented for each level of play much more than a single expression of character power. I don't have my books with me (at work on a company laptop) but having a small range of OCV, DCV, OMCV, DMCV, DC, Defenses, Dex and Speed is more useful to me than any Rule of X. When I was actually running games, I noticed how a couple of points difference in OCV vs. DCV made a huge impact on seeing if the attacker hit. A few points difference in DC vs. Defenses made a huge difference in whether or not any significant damage was done if the hit was made.

 

Just my own observations.

[Christougher]

Most of my equation answers are trial and error or experience based.  Yes, 1 SPD = 2 DC; all the other factors were intended to be of equal rate - in most cases you can switch one DC for one CV or vice versa.  Defenses and Stun values were included because its not just how hard they hit, it's how long they're around hitting. STUN applies once, DEF applies to every attack, giving them different weights.  I know 1 DC is closer to 3 DEF, but DEF/2 has always just "felt right".  I'll test that in my spreadsheet and see what it looks like.

 

CON and END just don't matter /that much/ to be considered most of the time.  I've toyed with adding movement; it pushes Speedsters way up the scale, but range of motion can be a big difference in some fights.  Of course, scale is relative and not all characters have to be exactly the same value.

 

(I should probably rewrite everything here for clarity, but alas, work...)

 

Chris.

[Ndreare]

My 2-cents

 

I do not use a real rule of X, instead I give the players the suggested minimums (drop dead middle of the line from the table, I think page 35 of 6e1). I then tell them the total amount they may exceed those suggested values is 50 active points. With two

 

1.       Combat skill levels always count as 5 active point, regardless to of what actual point level or cost they are bought at. After all a 3 point CSL is going to be just as combat effective as a 12 point overall skill level in many players hands.

 

2.       No more than 30 may be spent on one category (Speed, CV, DC, defense, resistance).

 

This really works out pretty well for fantasy and modern. We almost always play heroic, so I cannot tell you how it works for supers. But I have had players with characters in fantasy games that had 45-strength and still not unbalanced things, because the limits at that level brought them together.

 

The wizard who wants a high CV and a high damage, does fine, because he cannot have too high of a speed or too high of defenses.

 

 

 

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

 

 

 

On how useful Speed is, it lets you all out defend during your enemies attacks and Haymaker in the phases they have no actions. I would say it is pretty darn useful.

[Greywind]

I've never felt particularly strong about player characters needing to be balanced against one-another.

[Tasha]

I've never felt particularly strong about player characters needing to be balanced against one-another.

 

Most GM's I have played with use Caps to CV, DCs and defenses. Like someone else pointed out, caps lead to everyone doing the exact same damage, same dex etc. Without caps or at least some explanation to players as to Average Power levels, you will have powerlevels all over the map. With some players with characters that have no powers that can really contribute to combat. Others with defenses so low and CVs so low that they are one shot wonders that are both easy to hit and who can't hit the broadside of a barn.

 

The goal is to come up with a rough tool, that can allow players to "Violate" the caps by giving up stats in a different part of the character. So that there's a rough balance between the Easy to hit, high defenses brick, and the Difficult to hit. low defenses Martial Artist.