Dizzyness power, how would you do it?

[naD]

My GM wants to build a power that makes people dizzy through spinning, I say a Dex Drain. He is not so sure. show me how you would do it.

 

 

Thanks

[Steve Long]

In published materials, I've typically done it as a Drain DEX.

 

As an option I've suggested expanding it to include a Drain CON as well, to represent nausea and whatnot.

[L. Marcus]

Change Environment, with penalties to DEX Rolls and DEX-Based Skills.

[Hyper-Man]

Below is a Framework Slot example of how I have have done it with my rookie version of The Flash.

 

2 (END per shot)

14) Superspeed Spin: Drain DEX, OCV & DCV 1d6+1 (standard effect: 4 points), Reduced Endurance (1/2 END; +1/2), Area Of Effect Accurate (4m Radius; +1/2), Expanded Effect (x3 Characteristics or Powers simultaneously) (DEX, OCV & DCV; +1), Autofire (5 shots; +1 1/2) (58 Active Points); No Range (-1/2), Linked (Running at Super Speed part 1; -1/4) Real Cost: 29

Notes: Effectively -2 DEX per hit, -1 OCV per 2 hits & -1 DCV per 3 hits. DCV is considered a Defensive Power vs. Adjustments so the effect of Drain is halved (6e1 pg141). Costs 10 END if 5 spin attempts are made.

0

[naD]

thank you all

[Christopher R Taylor]

Change environment (perception, movement, and dex rolls), DEX/INT Drain, a low-powered contstant dex based entangle, drain CV all spring to mind.

[Hugh Neilson]

My first thought is "What is the game effect you envision for being made dizzy through spinning?"  Reason back from that effect.  You are skipping a step in the following sequence:

 

(a)  What Does The Power Look Like?  - the target is spun around really fast and becomes dizzy?

 

(  What Impact Does It Have? - the target (to use Hype's vision) loses co-ordination from being so dizzy - you have not told us what you envision "being dizzy" meaning to the target

 

©  How Do We Measure That In Game?  Hype decided that it means losing DEC, OCV and DCV for a brief time

 

Hype reasons that the target would suffer a loss of co-ordination, becoming less easy to use abilities reliant on agility, and less combat-capable.  L. Marcus seems to envision the target falling down or being otherwise inconvenienced/incapacitated.  Christopher Taylor sees several possible effects.

 

What If your GM thinks the target would be nauseated and pass out, that's a different effect entirely from anything suggested above.  Maybe we're playing Toon Hero and the target is Stunned and loses a phase (change environment from Advanced Guide) while little birdies fly about his head (Images).

[Hyper-Man]

I built the previous example based on the following scene from the Justice League Animated series.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=csR738OlLHQ

 

Even with out the Drain based attack my Flash could still do a more traditional spin-throw attack from that scene by just combining his Running (up to 90m with the Combat Acceleration/Deceleration Advantage) with the Passing Throw Martial Art Maneuver.

 

Passing Throw      1/2     +0     +0      4d6 +v/10; Target Falls; FMove

[bigdamnhero]

[trigger warning: comparison of different editions]

 

In past editions, Drain DEX worked fine because it would also reduce OCV & DCV. But in 6ed, the only combat effect is to reduce your initiative and your Acrobatics/Breakfall rolls. So to do it properly now, I think you'd need to Drain OCV & DCV, and if you have the points you can also add in DEX, CON, etc.

[Lord Liaden]

Does draining DEX down to negative numbers still also impose a DEX roll on characters for any significant physical activity?

[L. Marcus]

AIUI, it can't be done under 6E.

[Hugh Neilson]

AIUI, it can't be done under 6E.

 

Seems like Change Environment can be used to require a DEX check for any physical activity.

[L. Marcus]

Yes, there is that, but Drain can't bring DEX below 0.

[Greywind]

6th did away with negative characteristics.

[Hyper-Man]

6th did away with negative characteristics.

 

Not exactly.

 

from 6e1 page 47

 

Except for BODY and STUN (which have specific combat effects; see 6E2 106-07), Characteristics cannot be reduced below 0; there’s no such thing as “-5 CON” or “-12 STR.” However, a Characteristic that’s been affected by a negative Adjustment Power (such as a Drain) can be “reduced into the negatives” solely for the purpose of determining how long it takes to regain the lost points. For example, a character could be attacked with a Drain STR until he’s at “-25 STR.” He functions as if he had STR 0, but it will take him longer to regain all the Drained STR because he starts regaining it from “-25,” not from 0.

 

[Hyper-Man]

And from 6e1 page 44
 

A character with DEX 0 loses control over his reactions, and must succeed with DEX Rolls to perform any Action requiring physical movement (including things like walking, aiming at a target, or making Gestures). If he fails the DEX Roll, he cannot perform the Action that Phase.

 

[Grailknight]

Basically 6E eliminated the penalties for negative Characteristics but did retain the negative value for recovery accounting only. Instead of the progressively worst rolls until Characteristic -30(past which you could no longer act) , the penalty becomes a 9< chance to act each phase. 

[Christopher R Taylor]

Correct, essentially they were stripped from the game in most meaningful ways they were useful in previous editions.

[Hyper-Man]

I don't know.  Forcing a character to have to make a slightly better than 1 in 3 roll (the odds of rolling a 9- = 37.50%) is still a difficult thing to deal with.

[Oruncrest]

Since dizzyness affects your sense of balance (which is controlled by your inner ear), might I suggest you try this power:

 

40      I Spin You Right 'Round Baby, Right 'Round: 12d6 Sight Group Flash vs. Flash Defense (Hearing), No Range (-½)

 

While dizzy, the target suffers the ususal penalties (½ DCV, ½OCV in hand to hand, 0OCV at range) as described on pg 133 of Champions Complete without suffering from a loss of vision.

[Grailknight]

I don't know.  Forcing a character to have to make a slightly better than 1 in 3 roll (the odds of rolling a 9- = 37.50%) is still a difficult thing to deal with.

 

9< is a very good combat penalty, but too good a chance of success for out of combat applications.  

 

The negative characteristic rules were simple, effective and flavorful.

[Christopher R Taylor]

I liked them too but they did present some problems, particularly the way strength was built.  At -10 strength you still could impact the world pretty significantly and get points for it.  Under 10 STR you're basically having no combat effect anyway, so its just free points.  Telekinesis in particular was problematic, since the cost is based on the strength total it has.

[Grailknight]

Selling back STR was ..... ill-advised under pre-6e. Draining STR  to -10 would pretty much nerf martial build and would allow grabs by agents(with the corresponding DCV loss) against ranged characters if available.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Sure but check out this old TK strength char I did way back in the 90s on the Hero boards on the subject:

 

STR   KG LIFT   

 -25       .8

 -23      1.0

 -20      1.6

 -18      2.0

 -15      3.2

 -13      4.0

 -10      6.4

  -8       8.0

  -5     12.5

  -3     16.0

   0     25.0