The Superman problem

[tiger]

Just seems that every villain and his brother has some any more.

[steriaca]

Just seems that every villain and his brother has some any more.

Artificially created Kryptonite. It is not just for ex-drug aditic comedians who lit themselves on fire once and suffers from cerable palsy anymore.

[Hugh Neilson]

Supes shouldn't be able to resist Mjolnir (magical power) but meh, writer's discretion or the fight is over with too fast).  The "go to eleven" line was lame though

DC Vs Marvel was a "reader's Choice" for many of the matchups. I suspect that, if Thor won the popularity contest, Supes would have been more vulnerable to the magic of Mjolnir. The two universes, as I recall, did not mesh well, so "Marvel Magic" or "Asgard Magic" might not be the magic Supes was vulnerable to.

 

 

I'm not too bothered about the prevalence of Kryptonite once people know about it. If it's an issue, there's probably a reason why there's so much of it on Earth, but who cares, really.

His GM shoulld never have allowed that Susceptibility at a Common level. Munchkin!

[Wardsman]

Supes shouldn't be able to resist Mjolnir (magical power) but meh, writer's discretion or the fight is over with too fast).  The "go to eleven" line was lame though

Nor the powers of a God as both are magical. 

[massey]

DC Vs Marvel was a "reader's Choice" for many of the matchups. I suspect that, if Thor won the popularity contest, Supes would have been more vulnerable to the magic of Mjolnir. The two universes, as I recall, did not mesh well, so "Marvel Magic" or "Asgard Magic" might not be the magic Supes was vulnerable to.

 

 

 

His GM shoulld never have allowed that Susceptibility at a Common level. Munchkin!

 

That wasn't DC vs Marvel.  That was Avengers/JLA.  DC vs Marvel came out in like 1994 or so.  Avengers/JLA was 2004-ish.  No fan voting took place there, it was all Kurt Busiek and George Perez.  

 

 

Superman, like any comic book character who has been published for darn near 80 years now, is going to have some inconsistencies.  But you've got to remember that as each new writing team comes in, he basically gets a different character sheet.  I'd have given the Superman from that era about 45/45 PD/ED, hardened, resistant, and a 60 Con or so.  That's just my estimate.  He'd have had a x1.5 Vulnerability to magical effects, but not Stun or Body.  So we'll say Thor (Str 100 or so) is hitting Supes with Mjolnir (+8D6 Hand Attack).  That's 28D6, a lot but not quite enough to Stun him, on average.  Then Superman puts his levels in OCV and performs some combination of a block/grab.  And Thor can't believe that anybody can do that.  Then Superman's Speed advantage comes into play, as he's got an extra phase over Thor in there somewhere, and he haymakers, shouting some cheesy line from This is Spinal Tap.

 

Superman is still vulnerable to some degree, to magic.  But he's never been "magic makes me explode" vulnerable.  Magic is a complication to him, a plot vulnerability that he has to work around.  He's still invulnerable.

[tiger]

I remember reading somewhere that the crossovers had limits on what the writers could do with DC's big three. If that's true I'm sure it hindered the writers quite a bit.

[Christopher R Taylor]

I think the JLA/Avengers thing had a cheap device where the power level and success of the characters depended on whose universe they were in.  Superman in DC universe: unbeatable.  Thor in Marvel: trashes Superman, etc.  It was a cheesy way of making everyone happy while making no one happy.

[massey]

I think the JLA/Avengers thing had a cheap device where the power level and success of the characters depended on whose universe they were in.  Superman in DC universe: unbeatable.  Thor in Marvel: trashes Superman, etc.  It was a cheesy way of making everyone happy while making no one happy.

 

Only with Scarlet Witch and the Flash.  There is no Speed Force in the Marvel Universe, so he lost most of his power over there.  On the other hand, Chaos Magic is a much bigger deal in the DCU, so Wanda became much more powerful over there.  But it was something the characters noticed and commented on within the series.  Superman and Captain America both got a bad case of PMS, and the excuse was that they were so closely aligned with their own universes, when they were in the other place, they felt "off" and got really angry.

 

I thought they did about as good a job as you can with a crossover like that.  I remember that series pretty clearly because it was some of the last comics I read, before Identity Crisis and Civil War, which made me stop reading comics altogether.

[Hugh Neilson]

That wasn't DC vs Marvel.  That was Avengers/JLA.  DC vs Marvel came out in like 1994 or so.  Avengers/JLA was 2004-ish.  No fan voting took place there, it was all Kurt Busiek and George Perez.  

mea culpa - DC vs Marvel was Thor vs Captain Marvel and Superman vs Hulk.

 

Superman, like any comic book character who has been published for darn near 80 years now, is going to have some inconsistencies.  But you've got to remember that as each new writing team comes in, he basically gets a different character sheet.  I'd have given the Superman from that era about 45/45 PD/ED, hardened, resistant, and a 60 Con or so.  That's just my estimate.  He'd have had a x1.5 Vulnerability to magical effects, but not Stun or Body.  So we'll say Thor (Str 100 or so) is hitting Supes with Mjolnir (+8D6 Hand Attack).  That's 28D6, a lot but not quite enough to Stun him, on average.  Then Superman puts his levels in OCV and performs some combination of a block/grab.  And Thor can't believe that anybody can do that.  Then Superman's Speed advantage comes into play, as he's got an extra phase over Thor in there somewhere, and he haymakers, shouting some cheesy line from This is Spinal Tap.

Thor and Superman can each have 75 STR, or a 15d6 attack, or whatever we want. Thor's as strong as they come in Marvel and Supes is the top of the chain in DC. If we accept that the main characters in the two universes have roughly equal power, then whether that's 30d6 or 12d6 doesn't matter a lot - we just scale other characters down from there. If we want the characters to be comparable with our Champions characters, we set them at the top of the DC cap.

 

I think the JLA/Avengers thing had a cheap device where the power level and success of the characters depended on whose universe they were in.  Superman in DC universe: unbeatable.  Thor in Marvel: trashes Superman, etc.  It was a cheesy way of making everyone happy while making no one happy.

As cheesy as the first appearance of the Crime Syndicate, I suppose. On Earth 1, JLA wins. On Earth 3, Syndicate wins. On Earth 2 - no home field advantage, so it's a fair fight. As I recall, though, JLA/Avengers was pretty focused - no Speed Force, for example. Pretty much what Massey said.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Thor vs Captain Marvel is a better matchup, they're both basically magic.  Hulk vs Superman isn't such a great matchup, since while Hulk is technically stronger and maybe tougher (with regen) that's all he has, while superman flies, is super fast, cold breath, laser beam eyes, super senses, etc.  Yes, probably Superman is stronger in the DC universe, but while he's very strong, that's the Hulks whole schtick: get him mad enough and he can lift the Himalayas.

[steriaca]

Thor vs Captain Marvel is a better matchup, they're both basically magic. Hulk vs Superman isn't such a great matchup, since while Hulk is technically stronger and maybe tougher (with regen) that's all he has, while superman flies, is super fast, cold breath, laser beam eyes, super senses, etc. Yes, probably Superman is stronger in the DC universe, but while he's very strong, that's the Hulks whole schtick: get him mad enough and he can lift the Himalayas.

Forget Superman vs The Hulk. Superman vs Son Goku, twice, Death Battle. And guess who won. On Goku's turf even.

[Hyper-Man]

How many different Superman wannabees has Marvel produced over the years?

 

I'm sure I'm missing someone but here's the basic list:

Count Nefaria

Hyperion (at least 2 and possibly 4 different versions!)

Gladiator

Sentry

Blue Marvel

 

At least 2 of these outmatch pre-Odinpower Thor (Sentry, Blue Marvel).

 

Thor isn't even a Superman wannabee.  He's a 2nd generation Captain Marvel Wannabee!

And the Big Red Cheese would arguably mop the floor with Thor just as easily as Superman.

 

Superman has had several races with The Flash over the years.  He may not be quite as fast but he's usually in the ballpark. Thor hasn't been shown keeping up with any version of Quicksilver that I am aware of (and the comic version has always had a top speed barely above Mach1).  Captain Marvel is in the same speed class as Superman and Flash (Power of Mercury!).  Thor's lightning has never been shown to be "magic" that I am aware of.

 

 

HM

[Christopher R Taylor]

Physically Thor and Captain Marvel are pretty equivalent, but Cap is wiser and faster, so I give him an edge, but Thor has Mjolnir, weather powers, and he can strap on that belt which makes him even more terrifying so its a lot closer fight.

 

I can't imagine how Thor's lightning wouldn't be magical, since its produced by magic, but I don't know if the comics have ever touched on that.  

 

DC's fixation with superspeed makes them more powerful than anything Marvel has produced.  Even grossly overpowered guys like Gladiator can have a footrace with the flash

[massey]

Physically Thor and Captain Marvel are pretty equivalent, but Cap is wiser and faster, so I give him an edge, but Thor has Mjolnir, weather powers, and he can strap on that belt which makes him even more terrifying so its a lot closer fight.

 

I can't imagine how Thor's lightning wouldn't be magical, since its produced by magic, but I don't know if the comics have ever touched on that.  

 

DC's fixation with superspeed makes them more powerful than anything Marvel has produced.  Even grossly overpowered guys like Gladiator can have a footrace with the flash

 

DC's superspeed has never been as powerful as roleplayers want to make it.  Otherwise Flash wouldn't fight guys like Captain Cold.

[Scott Anderson]

My favorite imaginary person could lick your favorite imaginary person in a hypothetical imaginary fight, that's just science

[Hugh Neilson]

How many different Superman wannabees has Marvel produced over the years?

 

I'm sure I'm missing someone but here's the basic list:

Count Nefaria

Hyperion (at least 2 and possibly 4 different versions!)

Gladiator

Sentry

Blue Marvel

 

At least 2 of these outmatch pre-Odinpower Thor (Sentry, Blue Marvel).

Hyperion and Gladiator were both supposed to be Superman clones. While the Squadron Sinister (and later Supreme) stood up better over time, the Justice League issue the same month featured the four Avengers homages, who returned and were gradually killed off in the Giffen/DeMatteis years. The Imperial Guard were initially all Legion clones.

 

PS238 made a joke of the "Flight Invulnerable Speed Strength " power set, featuring a character called "84" as the 84th meta with that power set. Very few superpowers are original (super strength goes back to Samson and Hercules).

 

Thor isn't even a Superman wannabee.  He's a 2nd generation Captain Marvel Wannabee!

And the Big Red Cheese would arguably mop the floor with Thor just as easily as Superman.

The Norse might assert that Thor has seniority. DC vs Marvel saw Thor take down the Big Red Cheese by taking control of the Magic Lightning. Other than that, they were more or less evenly matched, which makes sense as each is among the strongest and most durable characters in their respective milieus.

 

But it's all about what the writers want. As noted upthread, the readers voted on DC/Marvel matchups like Thor vs Captain Marvel and Namor vs Aquaman, so there's no question they could have written in a win for either.

[Christopher R Taylor]

DC's superspeed has never been as powerful as roleplayers want to make it.  Otherwise Flash wouldn't fight guys like Captain Cold.

 

 

You have that reversed.  The writers did it all wrong, they ignored obvious things Flash could do and did do in other comics just to make it seem to have some sort of challenge or story.  Super speed really is as powerful as roleplayers; its writers that underplay it because otherwise there's no conflict.  They write themselves into an impossible corner then have to ignore what they've established.