The Superman problem

[johnnyrelentless]

"The ancient Greeks understood that mythological heroes, and even the gods themselves, were more interesting when deeply flawed. Human even, albeit immortal. But the writers of ancient Greece didn't have monthly circulation figures to maintain, or stockholders demanding double-digit returns on investment every year."

 

So you're suggesting the plan is to make Superman less interesting to increase sales? I'm not really sure it works that way.

[johnnyrelentless]

"The original Shuster and Siegel superman was even more broken. He could obliterate Solar Systems by Sneezing!"

That wasn't the original Superman. The original Superman couldn't even fly into space - or fly at all. He could only literally leap tall buildings. He could lift cars, but not much more than that.

[sinanju]

That wasn't the original Superman. The original Superman couldn't even fly into space - or fly at all. He could only literally leap tall buildings. He could lift cars, but not much more than that.

 

Yeah, it was pretty much all right there in the opening narration of the live action show from the 50s. "Faster than a speeding bullet. More powerful than a locomotive. Able to leap tall buildings with a single bound!" Nothing about actually flying. Or having superhuman senses, or x-ray vision, or any of that. Or vulnerability to Kryptonite. That was invented for a radio show version of Superman, and caught on (I think. I could be wrong.)

[massey]

That wasn't the original Superman. The original Superman couldn't even fly into space - or fly at all. He could only literally leap tall buildings. He could lift cars, but not much more than that.

 

The original Superman was unable to fly for like 6 months.  He could also lift way more than just cars.  In fact, the original Superman was always able to lift pretty much anything he ever tried to pick up.

 

Yeah, it was pretty much all right there in the opening narration of the live action show from the 50s. "Faster than a speeding bullet. More powerful than a locomotive. Able to leap tall buildings with a single bound!" Nothing about actually flying. Or having superhuman senses, or x-ray vision, or any of that. Or vulnerability to Kryptonite. That was invented for a radio show version of Superman, and caught on (I think. I could be wrong.)

 

Well, Superman appeared in comic books, in newspaper strips, on the radio, in movies, and then on television.  You'd have to be a comic historian to know exactly when and where each ability first appeared, but most of it was pretty early.  As I posted earlier, his first time surviving a nuke was 1946.  He was flying by 1940.  He was using X-Ray vision and Heat Vision around the same time.  While he didn't display all of his powers from the very beginning, he displayed most of them at a very high level pretty early.

[Hyper-Man]

Most if not all of the Silver Age crazy power level stuff Superman pulls off is in his solo books.  He even gets 'Worfed' in the JLA stories.  The exception might be the Silver Age Legion of Superheroes stories where as Superboy he's not even the strongest member of the team (that would be Mon-El) and much of the action takes place off Earth.

 

One of the best if not THE best interpretations of the character is the one that appears in the Animated Universe that began with Batman: TAS and goes all the way to Batman Beyond.  That version of Superman can and did lose fights. It's arguable that his actual powers didn't get stronger in the series but rather his skill with using them 'safely' did.  That version of Superman was ALL about his CVK and not becoming a dictator (as he DID while under the mind control of Darkseid after their first encounter) .  There were several alternate versions of Superman shown throughout the run of the various shows. Superman: TAS had an alternate reality episode that showed Superman as Luthor's police state enforcer after that world's Lois Lane died.  Justice League: TAS had the alternate reality Justice Lords version of the team (based on the Earth 3 Crime Syndicate of America from the comics).  That Superman 'crossed the line' when he killed President Luthor using his Heat Vision* to prevent him from pressing the nuclear launch button that his finger was already on (it was stated that lethal force of some kind was the only thing Superman could do fast enough to stop Luthor).  This Justice Lord version of Superman traveled to the Justice League Earth and 'lobotomized' Doomsday using Heat Vision between the eyes when he first arrived on Earth (thus saving the 'real' Superman from having his 'fight to the death' from the comics). It wasn't a matter of power level but rather a willingness to make irrevocable decisions that was the difference between the Justice Lord Superman and the Justice League one.  This Superman was arguably the most powerful superhero on Earth but he was not the most powerful being.  Power level wise he actually was barely above that of the MCU heavy hitters like Thor, Iron Man and Hulk.  He was never shown lifting anything bigger than a large sea vessel or 747.

 

What has ticked me off with the DC movies is that they have yet to provide Superman with a stronger opponent that has no association with Krypton (Zod, clone/Doomsday or Kryptonite). Hopefully they'll get Darkseid right. He's too good of a character to just waste on one movie.

 

HM

[assault]

The original Superman was unable to fly for like 6 months.  He could also lift way more than just cars.  In fact, the original Superman was always able to lift pretty much anything he ever tried to pick up.

 

 

Well, Superman appeared in comic books, in newspaper strips, on the radio, in movies, and then on television.  You'd have to be a comic historian to know exactly when and where each ability first appeared, but most of it was pretty early.  As I posted earlier, his first time surviving a nuke was 1946.  He was flying by 1940.  He was using X-Ray vision and Heat Vision around the same time.  While he didn't display all of his powers from the very beginning, he displayed most of them at a very high level pretty early.

Superman's Super-Powers

[Christopher]

Yeah, it was pretty much all right there in the opening narration of the live action show from the 50s. "Faster than a speeding bullet. More powerful than a locomotive. Able to leap tall buildings with a single bound!" Nothing about actually flying. Or having superhuman senses, or x-ray vision, or any of that. Or vulnerability to Kryptonite. That was invented for a radio show version of Superman, and caught on (I think. I could be wrong.)

He did not need that back then, because he was only fighting early WW2 era weaponry and villainy. And he was about the only super on the planet.

Every gun can kill a human with a single hit. But this guy survived howitzers? Please tell me how that is not near godlike in power for the time? The bar to reach "godlike power" was pretty low back then.

[Ninja-Bear]

I believe his flight came about because in the original animated series, it was easier to show flight than jimping buildings.

 

And as I understand it, Superman is the poster child for Power Skill.

[Wardsman]

Does he? Watch Men of Steel again. Failure is all over the story. And that is what makes it a good superman story.

 

He failed to keep a low profile, because he could not stop doing "the right thing".

He failed at protecting humanity by turning himself in, because Zod was going to kill them for terraforming anyway.

Most importantly he failed at not killing people, because Zod forced him into the Necksnap. Even though Zod lost, he won.

 

How it should have Ended says he could have avoided that, but doing so would have needed to blindly trust a hologram claiming to be his dad while daming the remainder of his people to a fate worse then death. The person he is needed to give them at least that one chance to proove his dad wrong.

 

Forget stats for a moment. In a comicbook they never make a lot of sense, between different writers.

 

That you may or may not kill him with a nuke at any give time is nice and all. But you might have to hit a major city with it while doing so. Not to mention that he could dodge or destroy the missile easily.

Ever read greek myth? Their heros screw up all the time Hercules is the classic.

[Wardsman]

Well, it's been a while since I read a reprint of Action Comics #1.  Maybe the stats you give would function for Supes in his first appearance, but as I mentioned earlier, he pretty rapidly displays greater powers than that.  There's no in-universe reason to separate June 1938 Superman from the Superman of say, 1943.  It's still supposed to be the same guy, and while he gradually demonstrated more powers, these were abilities that he was always supposed to have had.  He didn't undergo a radiation accident or anything like that.  So while Superman maybe displays a 40 Str in his first appearance, half a dozen issues later he's doing something that requires a 60 or a 70.

 

Part of the problem with statting out early Superman is that the primary sources (the comics themselves) are kind of hard to find.  There are reprints, and collections, and things like that, but unless you get lucky and find them when they decide to publish them, being able to read the originals can be a pain.  As a result, a lot of the stats people give him are based on either vague power levels mentioned in descriptions (able to leap tall buildings, no less than a bursting shell, etc), or are based on somebody else's writeup that they've seen, or are based on really incomplete information.  A lot of websites get the info on Superman wrong.  I've seen quite a few saying that Golden Age Superman couldn't fly, or that he was strong enough to pick up a car, etc.  When really that's just the very early appearances that had limitations like that.  As I mentioned earlier, by the mid-40s he was zooming around the world and surviving hits by nuclear bombs.

 

There are similar issues with his magic vulnerability.  How it was actually represented in the comics is far different than how it is now perceived.  He was still physically invulnerable, but something like a magical curse that made him become lost, or prevented him from crossing running water, or turn him into a frog, or whatever the needs for that particular story were, that stuff would affect him.  The "I take extra damage from magic attacks" is something that really came about only in the last 20 years or so, once writers based their ideas for the character on some summary that said he was "vulnerable" to it.  Now that's not to say there aren't occasional instances where a magic lightning bolt or something would hurt 1970s Superman, but just as often that sort of thing would bounce off his chest.

You are dealing with character who has been in use for 78 years across multiple media at different power levels. You have pick one you like and stick with that. It depends on what OP wants.

[massey]

Superman's Super-Powers

This is a great website, but it only covers the comics. For instance, the Max Fleischer cartoons started in 1941, and he flew in the very first episode. I also know the radio show was the first source of some of the Superman bits, but I really don't know which ones or when.

[megaplayboy]

Superman's "weaknesses":

1. Kryptonite

2. Red Solar radiation(whatever that means) or being deprived of sunlight for long periods of time

3. Magic

4. Mental powers(he is still possessed of some resistance but it is much less than his physical and energy resistance)

5. Overconfidence

6. Restraint

7. Moral code(doesn't kill, protects bystanders, etc.)

8. Loved ones

9. Is super-powered but not super-skilled(that is, he doesn't know everything--nigh omnipotent but not nigh omniscient)

10. Has a day job and a secret identity

 

Edited to add:

11. His sense of responsibility leads him to overextend himself at times.

12. He's always going to get the lion's share of attention from bad guys--they will throw everything they have at him.

[Scott Anderson]

I based a superhero on 1938 Superman.  I gave him some Life Support and some super-senses, and he came out to 350 points quite neatly.  345 points just tumbled out without any fiddling, actually.  Maybe that neatness is why I like 1938 Superman.

 

The other interesting thing is that Mr. Incredible seems to me be a modern take on 1938 Superman.  A prodigious strength score, great leaping ability, but nothing out of line with Superman of that era.  Probably a coincidence, but pretty interesting.

[bubba smith]

Superman's "weaknesses":

1. Kryptonite

2. Red Solar radiation(whatever that means) or being deprived of sunlight for long periods of time

3. Magic

4. Mental powers(he is still possessed of some resistance but it is much less than his physical and energy resistance)

5. Overconfidence

6. Restraint

7. Moral code(doesn't kill, protects bystanders, etc.)

8. Loved ones

9. Is super-powered but not super-skilled(that is, he doesn't know everything--nigh omnipotent but not nigh omniscient)

10. Has a day job and a secret identity

 

Edited to add:

11. His sense of responsibility leads him to overextend himself at times.

12. He's always going to get the lion's share of attention from bad guys--they will throw everything they have at him.

it means light and energy from a red sun

[Wardsman]

it means light and energy from a red sun

It has represented in a inconsistant manner. Originally it just meant he was on "battery power" so speak when on an alien planet of a red star. He had to husband his remaining energy. But it has also been shown stripping of his powers or hurting him outright.

[bubba smith]

the writers don't understand how it works

[Anaximander]

I think it's not so much 'I need to save everyone' as 'I need to save everyone I can when I'm on watch'.  If he's ever presented with the choice of chasing/capturing the bad guy OR saving someone he'll ALWAYS choose the latter.  The 'on watch' part is the key.  Spending time a Clark Kent is much needed down time for Superman.  It's how he tunes out all the problems of the world without totally ignoring them (If everyone in the newsroom is watching the latest emergency on TV then he knows "This is a job for...").  If the secret of Clark gets exposed then he loses that downtime in the midst of humanity and slowly starts to lose his sanity.

This is common for many heroes not just super heroes like Superman.  Most super heroes have been forced to choose between saving lives or capturing the bad guy.  How many times have James Bond and Captain Kirk been thwarted in stopping the bad guy by stopping to engage in some act of mercy?

[Hyper-Man]

This is common for many heroes not just super heroes like Superman.  Most super heroes have been forced to choose between saving lives or capturing the bad guy.  How many times have James Bond and Captain Kirk been thwarted in stopping the bad guy by stopping to engage in some act of mercy?

 

I'm a little confused as to why you quoted me.  I was not the first to post the 'save everyone' idea and I was talking about when he was 'on watch'.

 

HM

[Anaximander]

I wasn't quoting you for any particular reason.  Your statement just merely had stuff I wanted to respond to, and I was too lazy to write out the argument in my own voice.  Sorry about any unintended confusion.

[Wardsman]

Question: How many Champions characters does it take to screw in a light bulb?

Answer: Gamemasters decision.

 

With that Caveat aside. I present this.

I am arguing somewhere else about Powerfist vs Superman. I brought up his magic / mystic weakness and the fact Powerfist has a mystic punch. One that can crack helicarriers. The Mary Sues are not happy.

 

I also found some mayfair stats for Pre-Crisis Superman.

http://www.fortressofbaileytude.com/dc-heroes-mayfair-games-earth-two-superman/mayfair-earth-two-superman-03/

His physical stats drop to ap vs mystic based effects. If I recall correctly that 20's in champions.

 

Only question is do Characters like Capt. Marvel and Wonder Woman trigger that.

Shining Knights Sword I believe would.

[Wardsman]

What does a character with 180 strength do? The strength chart I have handy stops at a 100.

[BoloOfEarth]

What does a character with 180 strength do?

 

Anything he wants, dude.  He does any freakin' thing he wants. 

[assault]

What does a character with 180 strength do? The strength chart I have handy stops at a 100.

 

The weight he can lift doubles every 5 points. (Round things a bit for simplicity.) Everything else is linear.

 

Easy rule of thumb: every extra fifty points multiplies what he can lift by a 1000. (Actually 1024).

 

10 Str: 100 kg.

60 Str: 100 tons.

110 Str: 100 Ktons.

160 Str: 100 Mtons.

170 Str: 400 Mtons.

180 Str: 1600 megatons.

 

Oh, and 36 d6 damage. (180/5).

[Scott Anderson]

I put Superman's STR at 125 in the Hero System, based on the rating in the old Mayfair DC Heroes 3rd Edition game (1993). But that was over 20 years ago, so it may not still be valid. 

[assault]

I put Superman's STR at 125 in the Hero System, based on the rating in the old Mayfair DC Heroes 3rd Edition game (1993). But that was over 20 years ago, so it may not still be valid. 

 

Based on John Byrne Man Of Steel Superman.

 

Near enough, but like all such figures, not necessarily what the character in the comics was doing. OK for relative strength compared to other characters in the DC universe at the time.