The Superman problem

[assault]

The weight he can lift doubles every 5 points. (Round things a bit for simplicity.) Everything else is linear.

 

Easy rule of thumb: every extra fifty points multiplies what he can lift by 1000. (Actually 1024).

 

10 Str: 100 kg.

60 Str: 100 tons.

110 Str: 100 Ktons.

160 Str: 100 Mtons.

170 Str: 400 Mtons.

180 Str: 1600 megatons.

 

Oh, and 36 d6 damage. (180/5).

 

I'm not sure what this was about. Accidental post, I suspect.

[massey]

With that Caveat aside. I present this.

I am arguing somewhere else about Powerfist vs Superman. I brought up his magic / mystic weakness and the fact Powerfist has a mystic punch. One that can crack helicarriers. The Mary Sues are not happy.

 

I also found some mayfair stats for Pre-Crisis Superman.

http://www.fortressofbaileytude.com/dc-heroes-mayfair-games-earth-two-superman/mayfair-earth-two-superman-03/

His physical stats drop to ap vs mystic based effects. If I recall correctly that 20's in champions.

 

Only question is do Characters like Capt. Marvel and Wonder Woman trigger that.

Shining Knights Sword I believe would.

The old Mayfair system gave Pre-Crisis Supes a spirit of 4 APs. While better than a normal person, his resistance to magic ranks well below such notables as Batman and Robin (10 APs and 5 APs, respectively), Green Arrow (8 APs) and Starfire (6 APs).

 

The problem with those kinds of stats is that it doesn't really reflect how Superman behaved in the actual comics. The 1st edition of that game was pretty notorious for having wonky stats, such as Hal Jordan's 20 APs of Dex in the Green Lantern sourcebook (which would be somewhere around a Champions Dex of 50 or so).

 

As far as the old Mayfair rules, neither Wonder Woman not Captain Marvel actually paid the points to have their Str scores "mystic linked", so they don't really count as magic in that game system. I don't recall if the Shining Knight did either. Unless they do that, they're just punching with regular old normal strength, no magic effect to it at all. Per the rules.

 

Story-wise, Superman's vulnerability to magic was not something that would get him killed. You could turn him into a frog, or mind control him, or turn him into a statue, etc. But magical attacks generally didn't seem to hurt him. His invulnerability would stop those just the same as most other attacks. Now that wasn't *always* the case, every once in a while a magic lightning bolt or something would daze him or knock him on his butt. But just as often, he would shrug it off.

 

If I were to write him up in Champions, I would probably give him a x1.5 or x2 stun vulnerability to magical attacks and a x2 vs magical effects. I'd put a limitation on his Power Defense and any Mental Defense so it didn't apply vs magic. Probably the same with any Damage Reduction. And I'd assume that any wizard or other guy like that who was taking on Superman was at least powerful enough to be a threat to other major heroes. A DEMON cultist with an 8D6 fire spell wouldn't be a threat to Seeker, so he shouldn't be a threat to Superman.

 

So let's say our Pre-Crisis Earth 2 Superman has a PD and ED of maybe 75, resistant, hardened. And he's got 50% reduction. Against magic, I'd say the hardened doesn't apply, the reduction doesn't apply, and he's taking x1.5 damage. So he gets hit with a 12D6 AP lighting bolt. He'd normally take nothing from this, but his weakness to magic means he's taking 63 Stun, minus half defense (so 38), meaning he takes 25 Stun from it. Now, he's probably got 200 Stun, but given his Psych Lim "overreacts to stuff that actually inflicts damage", it's going to cause him to flail about in pain and pretend that this is the worst thing he's ever felt.

[Wardsman]

The Mayfair books are quite clear his stats and powers drop to AP 4 (20) vs mystic and Magic effects.

Black adam almost killed him precrisis until Billy Batson shows up.

No reason Wonder Woman could not do the same.

 

Though I agee that batman having a dex of 9 (45) is way out there.

 

The old Mayfair system gave Pre-Crisis Supes a spirit of 4 APs. While better than a normal person, his resistance to magic ranks well below such notables as Batman and Robin (10 APs and 5 APs, respectively), Green Arrow (8 APs) and Starfire (6 APs).

The problem with those kinds of stats is that it doesn't really reflect how Superman behaved in the actual comics. The 1st edition of that game was pretty notorious for having wonky stats, such as Hal Jordan's 20 APs of Dex in the Green Lantern sourcebook (which would be somewhere around a Champions Dex of 50 or so).

As far as the old Mayfair rules, neither Wonder Woman not Captain Marvel actually paid the points to have their Str scores "mystic linked", so they don't really count as magic in that game system. I don't recall if the Shining Knight did either. Unless they do that, they're just punching with regular old normal strength, no magic effect to it at all. Per the rules.

Story-wise, Superman's vulnerability to magic was not something that would get him killed. You could turn him into a frog, or mind control him, or turn him into a statue, etc. But magical attacks generally didn't seem to hurt him. His invulnerability would stop those just the same as most other attacks. Now that wasn't *always* the case, every once in a while a magic lightning bolt or something would daze him or knock him on his butt. But just as often, he would shrug it off.

If I were to write him up in Champions, I would probably give him a x1.5 or x2 stun vulnerability to magical attacks and a x2 vs magical effects. I'd put a limitation on his Power Defense and any Mental Defense so it didn't apply vs magic. Probably the same with any Damage Reduction. And I'd assume that any wizard or other guy like that who was taking on Superman was at least powerful enough to be a threat to other major heroes. A DEMON cultist with an 8D6 fire spell wouldn't be a threat to Seeker, so he shouldn't be a threat to Superman.

So let's say our Pre-Crisis Earth 2 Superman has a PD and ED of maybe 75, resistant, hardened. And he's got 50% reduction. Against magic, I'd say the hardened doesn't apply, the reduction doesn't apply, and he's taking x1.5 damage. So he gets hit with a 12D6 AP lighting bolt. He'd normally take nothing from this, but his weakness to magic means he's taking 63 Stun, minus half defense (so 38), meaning he takes 25 Stun from it. Now, he's probably got 200 Stun, but given his Psych Lim "overreacts to stuff that actually inflicts damage", it's going to cause him to flail about in pain and pretend that this is the worst thing he's ever felt.

[massey]

The Mayfair books are quite clear his stats and powers drop to AP 4 (20) vs mystic and Magic effects.

Black adam almost killed him precrisis until Billy Batson shows up.

No reason Wonder Woman could not do the same.

 

Though I agee that batman having a dex of 9 (45) is way out there.

And I'm saying the Mayfair books are wrong on that. If Black Adam (somewhere in the 45 AP Str range, Pre-Crisis) hit a Superman who only had an RV of 4, then Black Adam would likely generate full RAPs. That means he would hit for 45 RAPs of damage, versus Superman's 4 Body. Even with Superman spending as many Hero Points as he could, Black Adam would blow him to pieces in one shot. It would be like Pre-Crisis Superman punching Aunt May full strength.

 

Since that never happened in their fight, we know that those stats are not representative.

 

I've got a fairly complete collection of the old Mayfair system and its supplements. It's a good system, but some of the stats are pretty far off.

[Hugh Neilson]

This is a common "game to game translation" issue. In Mayfair DC Heroes, 9-10 DEX is not all that "out there". It's only when we apply it through the lens of "+5 in Hero doubles and +1 in Mayfair doubles) and end up with a DEX that does not work in Hero that we encounter a problem. If I wanted to translate pre-6e Hero to/from Mayfair DC, I'd probably use a factor of 3 (+1 OCV and DCV) rather than 5.

 

But I'd more likely translate from the source material to capture the spirit of the character in the mechanics and power ranges of the game I want the character for.

[Cassandra]

In the final CBS episode of Supergirl she lifted a 1,000,000 ton object into space.  But just two episodes earlier Silver Banshee punched her and knocked her down.  

 

Perhaps Kryptonian characters could have STR that does no damage and Does Add to Figured Characteristics to explain their ability to lift and carry things like Spacecraft, Airlines, and Ships.

[Christopher R Taylor]

I think its best to not try to stat Superman etc, because even more so than most DC characters, their power varies massively based on the situation and plot needs.  "Strong enough" and "tough enough" is pretty much their only stat.

[Hyper-Man]

That's not an issue with the character. That's an issue with editorial staff in charge of the writers for whatever series (whether TV live action, animated or comic book). The Dini/Timm animated universe was able to present a very consistent power level for Superman so it CAN be done. It's just that some writers and editors get lazy. And with live TV budget/time constraints force quick story resolution in a 1 hour package that ends up vetoing the other concerns. Give the writers and editors enough time to learn the limitations of the medium and they'll get more consistent. Look back at the 1st season of Star Trek:TNG and see how it holds up against later seasons (not too well imo).

 

HM

[massey]

If you're going to stat out Superman, you've got to make the world fit around him.  He's the most important character in the DC universe, and they treat him that way.  I find it helpful to give him stats, because he sets a lot of benchmarks in the DCU.  Once you figure out how tough/strong/whatever Superman is, everybody else starts falling into place.  Same thing with Batman.  They are lynchpin characters and everyone else is judged by how they compare to these guys.

 

You just have to be careful that you don't get some Dr Destroyer, or the Disgustingly Powerful Ninja, who comes in and throws everything out of whack.  If Batman is "best martial artist in the world", and he's got 3 Overall levels and 3 levels with HTH, you can't have somebody else show up with 10 HTH levels and +8 DCs and Find Weakness 15-.  Somebody like that isn't supposed to exist in that universe.  Likewise if your Superman has a 90 Str and 45 Def, you shouldn't have Dr D show up throwing 10D6 RKAs.

 

For other inconsistencies, the excuse I use is that comic book characters don't always use the same character sheet.  Even if their general power level is relatively consistent over the course of a particular writer's run on the book, sometimes the "player" is jacking around with how he built the character, moving points around and trying different things.  And so every once in a while, Superman doesn't have Power Defense even though he had it two weeks ago, because his player decided that the Fortress of Solitude needed a Phantom Zone Projector.  Sometimes his weakness to Kryptonite is just a Susceptibility, and sometimes it's a -1/2 limitation on all his powers.  Part of that is because I've been in games where players made big changes to how their character was built almost every single game session (power armor guy starts out as an OIF, then becomes OIHID, then the suit becomes a vehicle, then it becomes powers Usable By Other bought through the Base, then it goes back to OIF, etc).

 

And then on some days the bad guy just rolls really REALLY good.  The best I've ever seen a player roll, he rolled 82 Stun and 26 Body on a 15D6 attack.  I watched him do it, and I counted it like 5 times.  So since that guy can do it, I figure every once in a blue moon, a bad guy can do that too.  So you can have somebody like the Penguin kick Batman in the crotch.  Or you can have some nobody guy from space punch Superman and knock him into next week with his first punch, but then every time he shows up afterwards he just gets curb-stomped.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Well that's just it.  Because the DC universe is so packed with demigods, and Superman has to be the biggest stud on the block, every time they got more powerful, he got more powerful.  So his stats aren't set in stone so much as "more than them."

[Wardsman]

Well that's just it.  Because the DC universe is so packed with demigods, and Superman has to be the biggest stud on the block, every time they got more powerful, he got more powerful.  So his stats aren't set in stone so much as "more than them."

Does he have to be the sacred cow in your Game? Just DC makes it so doesn't mean you have to.

Saw an interesting scan from Dark justice #1. Superman was getting shredded by old crooked witches teeth blown in the wind. 

I mean you would have thought it was kryptonite glass or something.

[Hyper-Man]

Superman's 'vulnerability' to magic goes back to the many silver age stories involving Mister Mxyzptlk.  A reality warping 5th dimensional imp (from the same dimension as Bat-Mite and Johnny Thunder's Thunderbolt Genie).  Mxyzptlk can literally do anything so his abilities were described as magic.  Since he could affect the silver age version of Superman it was later interpreted as Superman having a 'vulnerability' when it really was no such thing*.  However, the writers and editors in the years leading up the the John Byrne post-crisis reboot were looking for ways to challenge Superman in stories so the misconstrued 'vulnerability' stuck.

 

*There is an unofficial side joke between DC and Marvel that basically acknowledges that The Impossible Man and Mr. Mxyzptlk are the same character.  So if Superman has a vulnerability to Magic so does the FF and the rest of the superheroes of the Marvel Universe.

 

HM

[Wardsman]

Superman's 'vulnerability' to magic goes back to the many silver age stories involving Mister Mxyzptlk.  A reality warping 5th dimensional imp (from the same dimension as Bat-Mite and Johnny Thunder's Thunderbolt Genie).  Mxyzptlk can literally do anything so his abilities were described as magic.  Since he could affect the silver age version of Superman it was later interpreted as Superman having a 'vulnerability' when it really was no such thing*.  However, the writers and editors in the years leading up the the John Byrne post-crisis reboot were looking for ways to challenge Superman in stories so the misconstrued 'vulnerability' stuck.

 

*There is an unofficial side joke between DC and Marvel that basically acknowledges that The Impossible Man and Mr. Mxyzptlk are the same character.  So if Superman has a vulnerability to Magic so does the FF and the rest of the superheroes of the Marvel Universe.

 

HM

I have respectfully to disagree.

The imp from the 5th dimension was not the only mystic foe for superman to face in the silver age.

Mortal mystics also face offed against him with considerable effectiveness.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Does he have to be the sacred cow in your Game? Just DC makes it so doesn't mean you have to.

 

 

Well, if you're running a DC campaign, then, yes.

[Wardsman]

Well, if you're running a DC campaign, then, yes.

Well I guess the writers of Dark Justice #1 didn't get the memo.

[massey]

Bad writing can hurt even Superman.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Its almost as if this is about the weakness to magic we've been discussing or something.

[Wardsman]

Bad writing can hurt even Superman.

Wasn't bad writing . It an acknowledgement of a historic weakness he has had. One which the mary sue fans try to overlook.

[Hyper-Man]

Wasn't bad writing . It an acknowledgement of a historic weakness he has had. One which the mary sue fans try to overlook.

 

You mean the weakness to magic that the writers chose to ignore when having the character fight Thor and his "magic" hammer?

 

 

 

HM

[Christopher R Taylor]

Supes shouldn't be able to resist Mjolnir (magical power) but meh, writer's discretion or the fight is over with too fast).  The "go to eleven" line was lame though

[Ninja-Bear]

Wouldn't Superman be considered worthy enough to lift Mjolnir? And if he could then it would be considered a "normal" hammer? And Supes could resist that?

 

And I thought Supea had a weakness against magic not total vulnerability to it.

[tiger]

Coming in late so forgive me if I'm rehashing. Two problems I see:

 

1)He can do, or can't do, whatever he needs to. I mean one issue he shoves the world out of the way of an asteroid, next issue he can't. One issue he can lift the aircraft carrier with out damaging it, next he can't. No real consistency.

 

2) Kryptonite, a supposed rare substance, is in the hands of everyone and everybody it seems.

[assault]

Obviously magic's effect on him is not portrayed consistently, so there is no single correct answer.

 

My general take on things is that magic allows him to be mind controlled, drained or turned into a carrot more or less the same way anyone else can. All these effects can be accomplished by non-magical means as well.

 

In general, conventional attack forms would be countered by his defenses as usual, magic or not.

 

He might, potentially, encounter, say, a magic sword that can cut his skin, but that's a special case.

 

Thor, or an ordinary troll, wouldn't do anything special to him just because of "magic".

 

I'm not too bothered about the prevalence of Kryptonite once people know about it. If it's an issue, there's probably a reason why there's so much of it on Earth, but who cares, really.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Probably Superman could lift Mjolnir, yes, at least as much as Captain America.  Well, the comic book version.  Most of the time.

[Lawnmower Boy]

 

2) Kryptonite, a supposed rare substance, is in the hands of everyone and everybody it seems.

 

I'm pretty sure that Neal Adams turned in the script for "The Guy Who Wanted to Fight Superman With Kryptonite, Except He Couldn't Get Any Kryptonite Because It's So Rare, So He didn't Actually Do Anything, And That's Why This Story is Twenty-one Blank Pages" in 1985.