The Superman problem

[Enforcer84]

Superman's power-levels are DC editorial fiat. Because when they absorbed guys like Captain Marvel and Captain Atom they wanted their guy on top. 

As someone has pointed out there are many heroes of unbeatable power (even if some of them are just writer's fiat *cough* batgod *cough*) 

 

Supes has a couple of major weaknesses and the limits on his powers have been up and down (silver age in particular) because the writers were apparently lazier back in the day. Of course I've read plenty of lazy writing up through 2010 when I stopped collecting. 

 

The guy they parody all the time is the Silver Age guy and he's really not been that guy for some time. 

[John Desmarais]

Superman's power-levels are DC editorial fiat. Because when they absorbed guys like Captain Marvel and Captain Atom they wanted their guy on top. 

As someone has pointed out there are many heroes of unbeatable power (even if some of them are just writer's fiat *cough* batgod *cough*) 

 

Supes has a couple of major weaknesses and the limits on his powers have been up and down (silver age in particular) because the writers were apparently lazier back in the day. Of course I've read plenty of lazy writing up through 2010 when I stopped collecting. 

 

The guy they parody all the time is the Silver Age guy and he's really not been that guy for some time. 

 

 

I don't think the Silver Age writers were lazy, I think they were more restricted by the editorial powers that be. Between the fear of damaging the incredibly valuable property and fear of the Comic Code Authority, the writers were really hamstrung.

[assault]

IMHO, Silver Age Superman was the best. Mort Weisinger was a notoriously micro-managing editor, but his writers just kept churning out the awesome.

 

Brainiac, Bizarro, Supergirl, the Legion of Super-Heroes. Krypto, Kandor...

[Enforcer84]

I don't think the Silver Age writers were lazy, I think they were more restricted by the editorial powers that be. Between the fear of damaging the incredibly valuable property and fear of the Comic Code Authority, the writers were really hamstrung.

I do occasionally marginalize where I shouldn't. 

[Christopher]

Superman's power-levels are DC editorial fiat. Because when they absorbed guys like Captain Marvel and Captain Atom they wanted their guy on top. 

As someone has pointed out there are many heroes of unbeatable power (even if some of them are just writer's fiat *cough* batgod *cough*)

True, heroes tend to win a lot more then loose.

 

But how hard is it to make an actually challenge? For batman, the Riddlers riddles are real challenges. Joker Gas and Fear Toxin are real challenges. Somebody physically powerfull (like Bane) is a real challenge. Most criminal organsitions are a real challenge.

Just think how easily Batman translated to a world without superpowers, without sounding too far off (the Christopher Nolan incarnations).

 

The original green lantern was vulnerable to wood. The other ones to the color Yellow (mostly). And a normal, slightly powered criminal can be challenging for them too.

 

To be challenging for Superman it must involve superpowered alien overlords, giant robots, kryptonite, magic or a luthor plan. Not exactly stuff you find in the world all around us.

They had to invent kryptonite just to give the non alien, non-robots, non-mages, non-lothors a chance.

They had to invent a core trope of superhero comics, just for this guy. That is how insanely overpowered he is.

 

Best I can do perhaps is to link both Deathbattle Episodes with him. They count up his innumerous powers. And the first one is only limited to the post 1986 Superman:

 

Or how about asking it the other way. Who COULD beat superman?

[Hyper-Man]

My favorite versions of the character are from the early post-Crisis Byrne era and the Dini/Timm Animated Universe.  Both presented the weakest versions of the character besides the original Golden Age one who could only Leap Tall Buildings(TM).  These were beatable characters.  Yes, they were tough but they were NOT Herald of Galactus tough (at least not to start with).  The animated version got his ass handed to him by several 'B' villians like Sinestro.  He greatest 'power' was to inspire by never giving up (Batman also never gives up but he prefers to stay out of the limelight as much as possible as Batman to counterbalance his very Public ID of Bruce Wayne).  Superman more so than almost any other hero could be reliably manipulated by his boyscout ideals.  Villains didn't always need to physically beat him to accomplish their goals.  A well timed threat to innocent lives was and still is a reliable way to distract the Man of Steel from a villain's REAL goal in a story.  Superman is quite aware of what he is capable of and as a result holds himself to a much higher standard than most other heroes (besides Batman).  If even one innocent life is lost on his watch he feels it as a defeat.  If he didn't take such a hard line on that his job of actually defeating and capturing the villains would be far simplier - however that road typically leads to some version of the Justice Lords.

[Zephrosyne]

Christopher Taylor, on 07 Oct 2015 - 12:52 PM, said:

There's a lot of truth to this.  Superman holds back constantly (insert world of cardboard speech here).  He pretty much lives in fear of killing people he fights, of turning his opponent into a smear of strawberry jam by accident.

 

As for who is faster on foot: The Flash, by a long shot, but Superman can fly as fast.  At least, that's what the comics show.  Depending on what era, story, etc.  DC isn't real big on specifics and benchmarks - that's why Who's Who had almost no specific data like The Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe.

Well, frankly considering how often Marvel ignored the "specific data" they wrote, writing it was almost pointless, outside of making for an interesting read.

[Enforcer84]

True, heroes tend to win a lot more then loose.

 

But how hard is it to make an actually challenge? For batman, the Riddlers riddles are real challenges. Joker Gas and Fear Toxin are real challenges. Somebody physically powerfull (like Bane) is a real challenge. Most criminal organsitions are a real challenge.

Just think how easily Batman translated to a world without superpowers, without sounding too far off (the Christopher Nolan incarnations).

 

The original green lantern was vulnerable to wood. The other ones to the color Yellow (mostly). And a normal, slightly powered criminal can be challenging for them too.

 

To be challenging for Superman it must involve superpowered alien overlords, giant robots, kryptonite, magic or a luthor plan. Not exactly stuff you find in the world all around us.

They had to invent kryptonite just to give the non alien, non-robots, non-mages, non-lothors a chance.

They had to invent a core trope of superhero comics, just for this guy. That is how insanely overpowered he is.

 

Best I can do perhaps is to link both Deathbattle Episodes with him. They count up his innumerous powers. And the first one is only limited to the post 1986 Superman:

 

Or how about asking it the other way. Who COULD beat superman?

again you're talking logic and realism in a comics world with no consistency. Supes has been defeated as easily as necessary for the story and Batman has taken out 3 white martians without even flinching. So why Bane was a problem is more Batman's ego than anything else. 

 

Supes has been pushed to the limits by his "imitators" Captain Marvel, Black Adam, Mr Majestic, etc. 

Darkseid and Mongol are physical challenges for Clark. 

His biggest foe has been Lex Luthor so there's that. Just a smart human. 

 

In the end, the whole problem is one of editorial fiat. 

[wick]

Nice break down in the videos.   And superman's #1 enemy is a human.  Let me be specific, a normal human. 

 

At his power level it is safe to say that a fight against any opponent who should pose any kind a of challenge would destroy the planet, solar system, and heavily damage the galaxy where the fight occurs.

 

His power level is only my number 2 pet peeve with him. My number 1 is how people and gaming products (had a DC universe RPG as a kid and sure enough on his card it read  "human") refer to him as a human rather than a humanoid or alien.  #3 is how does a fragment of your home planet cause you to weaken and die, that doesn't even make comic book sense, its his home world. #4 In the last Superman film he picks up a crystal island which is infused with Green kryptonite and sends it into orbit WTF!?!? Don't tell me he powered through the weakness, when far less kryptonite has him as weak as a kitten.

 

I would build many of his powers like a Variable Power Pool. Many times he uses his powers in unique ways that are used only a few times. For, example, in the 1980's superman II (?) Film he flies really fast around the earth in counter rotation causing time to go back a few minutes, something he does not do everyday.  Leave his other powers as standard since he is super strong, durable, fast, etc...

 

Good opponents for Supes?:  I would not try to match him force for force.   Good research on his vulnerabilities would be key.  A mega scale teleporter or a magic using character to do major transforms on him ( super frog).  A character with Rogue's ability to take powers, even if temporary can be used to coup de grace the Supes with even a handgun.  How about a guy with a magic sword? Supes laughs at the knight approaching him until he gets a magic sword through his guts. Why would he dodge, hit, or disarm the knight, there are loads of examples where he lets people shoot him why would he expect a sword to hurt him. If it makes you feel better we can change that to magic bullets because we know he will try to bounce those off of his chest. I would have said mind control or mental attacks, but the you tube videos said he has become resistant to mental attacks. How about a sonic based attack?  Use his super hearing against him.

[zslane]

Superman should never have had the mentality that the loss of even one innocent life was a failure, or if he did, it shouldn't have lasted long. He can't be everywhere on Earth at once, and there are many crises for which even he can't save everyone. I've read at least one story where he was faced with this reality. Seems to me he would have been forced to face that reality pretty early on in his career as The Man of Steel, alien savior to all Man-kind. The idea that such an absurd "ideal" would survive long in his mind--and become a defining characteristic--is ludicrous.

 

As for Luthor, well, apparently it isn't enough any more for him to merely be a really smart, devious, normal human being. He's gotta be in heavy powered armor these days...

[Christopher R Taylor]

By that argument, any doctro is a failure and would crack because he can't heal every patient.  People know their limitations, its a question of being able to save people where you are with what abilities you have, not thinking if one thing goes wrong anywhere its your fault and you must be a disaster as a result.

[zslane]

I agree. And any sane person would understand their limits as a normal human being. But I didn't come up with Superman's psychology, I'm merely pointing out the absurdity of him adopting (and clinging to) a "I must save everyone or I am a failure" point of view. Some writers might think that he would hold himself up to an impossible standard simply because he is (written as) an impossibly powerful demi-god. To my mind that's just compounding the problem.

[Enforcer84]

As for Luthor, well, apparently it isn't enough any more for him to merely be a really smart, devious, normal human being. He's gotta be in heavy powered armor these days...

If by these days you mean...the seventies...then yes. 

 

I think the "I can't save everyone" keeps getting replayed because it's a big Superman moment, and they've rebooted him untold numbers of times since the Silver Age. (When I believe that story first appeared?)

I don't think the original Supes was that wrapped up in it. 

[Hyper-Man]

If by these days you mean...the seventies...then yes. 

 

I think the "I can't save everyone" keeps getting replayed because it's a big Superman moment, and they've rebooted him untold numbers of times since the Silver Age. (When I believe that story first appeared?)

I don't think the original Supes was that wrapped up in it. 

 

I think it's not so much 'I need to save everyone' as 'I need to save everyone I can when I'm on watch'.  If he's ever presented with the choice of chasing/capturing the bad guy OR saving someone he'll ALWAYS choose the latter.  The 'on watch' part is the key.  Spending time a Clark Kent is much needed down time for Superman.  It's how he tunes out all the problems of the world without totally ignoring them (If everyone in the newsroom is watching the latest emergency on TV then he knows "This is a job for...").  If the secret of Clark gets exposed then he loses that downtime in the midst of humanity and slowly starts to lose his sanity.

[bubba smith]

^{it seems DC has gotten on the" secret identities are obsolete" bandwagon according to recent superman story lines}

[massey]

^{it seems DC has gotten on the" secret identities are obsolete" bandwagon according to recent superman story lines}

 

That'll last for 30 seconds before they go back to the way it always was before.

[wick]

Well, technology has changed quite a bit since supes originated.  Everyone has cell phones which act as cameras and video cams. There are street cams and cameras on buildings.  Not to mention the advances in facial recognition technology.  I am sure eye glasses would not meaningfully skew the match between Clark Kent and Superman.  These technology upgrades certainly make keeping a secret identity very difficult.  Even if he started to wear a mask now, the cat is out of the bag since they already have him video taped from past encounters.  At least Mr. Kent is in print media rather than on TV ( not sure if this is still true, since I do not follow the comics.)  

 

Heck, if I were a villain of vast resources and an obsession with Superman (say Lex Luthor), I would satellite track Superman's movements and have a sat feed of Supes entering a phone booth ( or what have you) and mild manner reporter Clark Kent stepping out. Get enough of this data and even a skeptic will put 2 and 2 together and compare photos.  It would be fairly simple to orchestrate an encounter using hired pawns to draw him out so you can track him.  Heck, even cops gathering evidence at a crime scene could stumble across video of the change quite by accident.

 

May as well end the charade because no one is going to believe he can maintain his identity. 

[massey]

Well, technology has changed quite a bit since supes originated.  Everyone has cell phones which act as cameras and video cams. There are street cams and cameras on buildings.  Not to mention the advances in facial recognition technology.  I am sure eye glasses would not meaningfully skew the match between Clark Kent and Superman.  These technology upgrades certainly make keeping a secret identity very difficult.  Even if he started to wear a mask now, the cat is out of the bag since they already have him video taped from past encounters.  At least Mr. Kent is in print media rather than on TV ( not sure if this is still true, since I do not follow the comics.)  

 

Heck, if I were a villain of vast resources and an obsession with Superman (say Lex Luthor), I would satellite track Superman's movements and have a sat feed of Supes entering a phone booth ( or what have you) and mild manner reporter Clark Kent stepping out. Get enough of this data and even a skeptic will put 2 and 2 together and compare photos.  It would be fairly simple to orchestrate an encounter using hired pawns to draw him out so you can track him.  Heck, even cops gathering evidence at a crime scene could stumble across video of the change quite by accident.

 

May as well end the charade because no one is going to believe he can maintain his identity. 

 

With Superman in particular, there are very easy answers for most of these problems.

 

1) Superman has supersenses.  He can see and process information much faster than a normal human.  Superman can see where all the security cameras are in a given area very quickly.  He doesn't change when there are cameras around.

2) Superman moves far too fast for satellites to track him.  He can also see those satellites with perfect clarity.  If one is tracking him, a quick burst of invisible heat vision can melt it.

3) We don't have phone booths anymore.  Superman changes elsewhere.

 

As far as Clark goes --

 

Clark slouches a lot.  And he wears suits that don't fit right.  He appears absent-minded, bumps into things all the time.  When he meets people for the first time, he stages a "Clark moment".  He'll fumble his papers, chase his hat down the street, spill a glass of water on his pants, get on an elevator that is going up instead of going down, etc.  He does this often enough with people who know him well that he reinforces his image as a lovable dork.  All these things are designed to distract people from the fact that he does kinda look like Superman in the face.

 

Oh yeah, and Superman and Clark have been seen together.  Because Superman has robot duplicates that look just like him.  All he needs is a good solid front page picture of Superman saving Daily Planet reporter Clark Kent, clearly showing the two together, and nobody will ever question it.

 

 

Edit:  Oh yeah, you know who makes the best facial recognition software in the world?  Wayne Enterprises.  It's really good stuff.  Not rigged at all.  Honest.

[Christopher R Taylor]

I thought the Superman movie with Christopher Reeves did the best job of showing how Superman and Clark could be almost next to each other and people wouldn't figure it out.  Yeah, eventually they would - but they would with all Superheroes, no matter what their secret ID.  Its a Superhero/Comic Book thing, and you just go with it.  Removing that removes some of the charm and fun.

[zslane]

Well, we live in a self-imposed surveillance state at this point, and most clandestine activities of classic superheroes would be nearly impossible. I agree that the ability of costumed vigilantes to conduct their activities in secret is part of the traditional charm and fun of the genre, but we are increasingly losing our cultural connection to those traditions. Kids today want realism (and cynicism wrapped up in snark), not charming fun. If Bats isn't using social media to track down villains, he isn't "relevant" anymore. If Supes isn't being confronted with intense media scrutiny (like all American celebrities and athletes are today), then he might as well live in Cindarella's fantay world, not the "realistic" DCU that is being held up as a mirror to present society.

[massey]

Well, we live in a self-imposed surveillance state at this point, and most clandestine activities of classic superheroes would be nearly impossible. I agree that the ability of costumed vigilantes to conduct their activities in secret is part of the traditional charm and fun of the genre, but we are increasingly losing our cultural connection to those traditions. Kids today want realism (and cynicism wrapped up in snark), not charming fun. If Bats isn't using social media to track down villains, he isn't "relevant" anymore. If Supes isn't being confronted with intense media scrutiny (like all American celebrities and athletes are today), then he might as well live in Cindarella's fantay world, not the "realistic" DCU that is being held up as a mirror to present society.

 

I don't think the clandestine activities of heroes would be impossible at all.  Bruce Wayne is mega-rich, and his company builds half the surveillance tech out there.  It's not like Batman has a Twitter account.  Other than having a few people question "why can't Homeland Security find the Batman?", it really shouldn't ever be mentioned.

 

In 10 years, social media will probably be unrecognizable to what we know today.  Making a hero that is too "current" is just going to make them look really dated in the future.  Go ahead and hold up that cynical, snarky mirror, but don't make that too big a part of who the character is.  If a hero can't survive a few fads, then they aren't classic.

[wick]

***************************************************************************************

With Superman in particular, there are very easy answers for most of these problems.

 

1) Superman has supersenses.  He can see and process information much faster than a normal human.  Superman can see where all the security cameras are in a given area very quickly.  He doesn't change when there are cameras around.

2) Superman moves far too fast for satellites to track him.  He can also see those satellites with perfect clarity.  If one is tracking him, a quick burst of invisible heat vision can melt it.

3) We don't have phone booths anymore.  Superman changes elsewhere.

 

As far as Clark goes --

 

Clark slouches a lot.  And he wears suits that don't fit right.  He appears absent-minded, bumps into things all the time.  When he meets people for the first time, he stages a "Clark moment".  He'll fumble his papers, chase his hat down the street, spill a glass of water on his pants, get on an elevator that is going up instead of going down, etc.  He does this often enough with people who know him well that he reinforces his image as a lovable dork.  All these things are designed to distract people from the fact that he does kinda look like Superman in the face.

 

Oh yeah, and Superman and Clark have been seen together.  Because Superman has robot duplicates that look just like him.  All he needs is a good solid front page picture of Superman saving Daily Planet reporter Clark Kent, clearly showing the two together, and nobody will ever question it.

 

 

Edit:  Oh yeah, you know who makes the best facial recognition software in the world?  Wayne Enterprises.  It's really good stuff.  Not rigged at all.  Honest.

 

*******************************************************************************

 

To address your points:

1.) I am certainly not a factotum on superman abilities, but I was unaware of the fact that he is omniscient as well as all powerful and all good.  I would have just given him a pass if he was changing in areas that he knew where all of the camera were located i.e.. he scouted out the area and is very familiar with it (of course that does not account for newly installed cameras or cell phones. )

2.) Too fast for satellites to track......   well I would say that might be very tough if he wants to stay at speeds conducive to safe atmospheric travel (safe for the Earth and for its people)  and the faster he goes the more heat is generated due to friction which would be a huge infrared beacon.  Destroying satellites?  How does he know that a satellite is looking at him in particular? It is not like the satellite is emitting anything so what is he detecting?  Oh wait  that's right he is omniscient now and knows when people or things are looking at him.  Or maybe he destroys every satellite that passes over head.  Man Google maps will be pissed!

3.) Some places still have a few, but I do understand hey are pretty much an anachronism. They are just the classic example.  If he flies into a shed, abandoned warehouse, or portapotty, I would still be curious as to who walks out.

 

I was actually assuming that Lex Luthor has the resources to create his own facial recognition package, but I would assume that Wayne Enterprise is not the sole provider for this software.  Especially when it does not seem to work on super heroes ( at least all the ones with Secret ID's and with whom Batman knows enough to want to keep their IDs a secret), perhaps curious investigators would use an alternate or even multiple software packages if they keep getting bad results from Wayne software. This applies to all investigators (reporters, private citizens, villians, etc..)

 

Let us assume that the villain gets evidence that Clark may be Superman.  So they send an undercover, highly trained agent to meet up with Clark to feel him out. How good of an actor is he really? I will give him, that he may have been doing the bumbling act for years ( although his attempts have always seemed poorly executed IMHO).  So the agent perhaps collects some shed DNA from the suspected Superman , just in case (perhaps not easy but doable either through regular interaction or by breaking into his office or home while he is away.) He takes it back to the lab, and WTF!!  That guy ain't human!  Oh wait Superman is omniscient so he reads the agent's mind.    (again a power he had never previously exhibited, and I am willing to bet he has been successfully lied to in past adventures.)

 

 

 

[Christopher R Taylor]

Where do you figure this guy is going to get Superman's DNA?

[Narf the Mouse]

Classic DC comics, AFAICT, isn't about power levels, or stats, or specific powers. It's about mythology.

 

It's about a god-like alien who's more human than most humans, who fell in love with a story-teller.

It's about a woman made of clay, with a heart of gold and fists of steel, and her greatest weapon the truth.

It's about a stranger in a strange land, who can understand anyone perfectly...But never really fit in.

It's about a flying wizard with a magic ring, who can overcome anything...Except fear, and the frailty of his magic lamp.

It's about a man so fast he can out-run time itself...And lose himself so thoroughly that he has to slow down from time to time.

It's about an ordinary man who trained and learned and fought and built till he could stand with near-gods.

 

 

Yes, I do read Cracked.

 

[massey]

 

 

To address your points:

1.) I am certainly not a factotum on superman abilities, but I was unaware of the fact that he is omniscient as well as all powerful and all good.  I would have just given him a pass if he was changing in areas that he knew where all of the camera were located i.e.. he scouted out the area and is very familiar with it (of course that does not account for newly installed cameras or cell phones. )

2.) Too fast for satellites to track......   well I would say that might be very tough if he wants to stay at speeds conducive to safe atmospheric travel (safe for the Earth and for its people)  and the faster he goes the more heat is generated due to friction which would be a huge infrared beacon.  Destroying satellites?  How does he know that a satellite is looking at him in particular? It is not like the satellite is emitting anything so what is he detecting?  Oh wait  that's right he is omniscient now and knows when people or things are looking at him.  Or maybe he destroys every satellite that passes over head.  Man Google maps will be pissed!

3.) Some places still have a few, but I do understand hey are pretty much an anachronism. They are just the classic example.  If he flies into a shed, abandoned warehouse, or portapotty, I would still be curious as to who walks out.

 

I was actually assuming that Lex Luthor has the resources to create his own facial recognition package, but I would assume that Wayne Enterprise is not the sole provider for this software.  Especially when it does not seem to work on super heroes ( at least all the ones with Secret ID's and with whom Batman knows enough to want to keep their IDs a secret), perhaps curious investigators would use an alternate or even multiple software packages if they keep getting bad results from Wayne software. This applies to all investigators (reporters, private citizens, villians, etc..)

 

Let us assume that the villain gets evidence that Clark may be Superman.  So they send an undercover, highly trained agent to meet up with Clark to feel him out. How good of an actor is he really? I will give him, that he may have been doing the bumbling act for years ( although his attempts have always seemed poorly executed IMHO).  So the agent perhaps collects some shed DNA from the suspected Superman , just in case (perhaps not easy but doable either through regular interaction or by breaking into his office or home while he is away.) He takes it back to the lab, and WTF!!  That guy ain't human!  Oh wait Superman is omniscient so he reads the agent's mind.    (again a power he had never previously exhibited, and I am willing to bet he has been successfully lied to in past adventures.)

 

 

 

Do you take off your pants in public?  Or do you look around first?  Superman has superhuman senses.  He can see every single camera on a city block from 5 miles up.  Like most of us, he doesn't change clothes when people are watching.

 

Superman has always been able to move at incredible speeds within the atmosphere.  He never sets the air ablaze or anything like that.  That is a long established part of his abilities.  Yes, he can move faster than a satellite can track.  As far as how does he know if a satellite is following him?  Because he can look straight up at the thing and see where it is pointing its camera.  Superman can read a newspaper on his desk at the Daily Planet when he is standing on the moon.

 

Again, Superman doesn't change into Clark when people are watching.  Considering that Clark can also move at the speed of light, this isn't a problem.  

 

As far as facial recognition software goes... that's a pretty new technology and it isn't all that good in the real world.  Now maybe it gets better in the future, but so what?  Post-Crisis, Superman acted like he didn't have a secret ID.  He was just Superman, all the time (supposedly).  I don't think he actually had a driver's license that said "Superman" on it or anything, but he's a public figure.  Nobody tries to figure out Aquaman's secret ID, because everyone knows he's just Aquaman.  You show it a picture and the facial recognition software knows exactly who he is -- that's Superman.  You show it a picture of Clark, and it says that's Clark.  And that's expected, because, you know, they've been seen together and photographed together.

 

If you are Lex Luthor, what do you gain if you figure out Superman is Clark Kent?  He's a public figure.  He is not hard to find.  You can go to the roof and shout out "hey Superman, you suck!" and he'll hear you.  He isn't any less powerful when he's wearing different clothes.