The Superman problem

[Hyper-Man]

Some butlers are pretty good fighters.

 

[dmjalund]

Lobo, the ultimate Mary Sue

[Christopher R Taylor]

Alfred apparently has a neck like a goose

[Doctor Agenda]

Just as a post thread note, it is very difficult to identify an individual using a satellite, conditions have to be perfect, and that lasts only moments. There's a good reason why the NSA doesn't just let the FBI know where the bad guys are: they can't find them either.

[Wardsman]

While there are interesting things in the mythos, put me in the camp that Superman is too powerful!

 

I find the golden age one who can bounce bullets of his chest but gets knocked on his ass by a howitzer far more interesting than the modern mary sue. I liked man of steel because it was accurate. Someone with that kind power would cause carnage. No super robots (or superman)rebuilding everything like never happened. That is boring and mary sueish.

 

His magic vulnerability is his worst and most forgotten. I've seen silver age superman trapped inside magic rainclouds.

If I recall correctly his champion stats converted from mayfair games depicted all his primary stats in the 20-30 range against any form of magic. That should be his stat range versus Capt. Marvel, Wonder Woman or any magic based hero or villien.

 

Pastiches of supes is a common hobby. If you want to  tone him down and make what changes you want.

 

Mine was Capt Halley and his sidekick Kid Comet.  A golden Age knock off Superman and Flash.

 

Instead of invulnerability(armor, damage reduction he had his comet halo(Force Field). I tied into that some no range TK with affects whole object to simulate what john byrne did in his reboot. Which fixes the "why don't buildings fall apart when he picks them up" problem.

 

Oh you forgot his Clark kent ID is back up by "super hypnosis". Every sees Clark as older and more frail.

[Christopher]

I find the golden age one who can bounce bullets of his chest but gets knocked on his ass by a howitzer far more interesting than the modern mary sue. I liked man of steel because it was accurate. Someone with that kind power would cause carnage. No super robots (or superman)rebuilding everything like never happened. That is boring and mary sueish.

What is the real difference to the "god among men"?

Howitzers are not anti-(single)person weapons. They are anti-tank/aoe weapons and still can not defeat him.

 

It is like trying to nuke a anthill. Only to have them activate thier precursor shield and use first age technology to wipe you out instead.

[Christopher R Taylor]

I think a reinterpretation of Superman as the less powerful version before they turned him into God would make for more interesting cinema: bulletproof, but it hurts a little, can lift heavy things but not juggle cruise ships.  Can fly, but not at the speed of light, etc.

[massey]

I think it's a terrible idea.  It goes against who the character is, who he has always been.  The first time Superman was hit with a nuclear bomb was in the 1940s.  He survived with no problems.  There's a false idea that Superman first became ultra powerful in the 1960s.  That's just not true.  Superman was incredibly powerful when they first introduced him, and they kept him at the top of the heap as new heroes (and new military equipment) came out.  There are a lot of heroes who can be hurt by bullets.  Superman isn't one of them.

 

Superman isn't made interesting by having weapons be able to hurt him.  He's made interesting by a good story.  I don't see how having a movie where the story involves Superman failing to lift a heavy thing, or having him get hurt by a tank cannon, makes for an interesting film.  People are just going to say "that's not Superman".

[Scott Anderson]

Every superhero is powerful to defeat his current enemy, The real Superman Problem is that he's a boring dork in both identities.  

[Christopher]

I think it's a terrible idea.  It goes against who the character is, who he has always been.  The first time Superman was hit with a nuclear bomb was in the 1940s.  He survived with no problems.  There's a false idea that Superman first became ultra powerful in the 1960s.  That's just not true.  Superman was incredibly powerful when they first introduced him, and they kept him at the top of the heap as new heroes (and new military equipment) came out.  There are a lot of heroes who can be hurt by bullets.  Superman isn't one of them.

 

Superman isn't made interesting by having weapons be able to hurt him.  He's made interesting by a good story.  I don't see how having a movie where the story involves Superman failing to lift a heavy thing, or having him get hurt by a tank cannon, makes for an interesting film.  People are just going to say "that's not Superman".

There is a certain classical formula for "The Hero". It comes to us from ancient stories, older then our current civilisations could ever claim to be. It's core is failure:

Effects of thier deeds? Universal

Suffering? Personal

 

For Superman this manifests differently to other heroes.

He is a god in power effectively able to do whatever he wants/needs to do.

But for all his power he still can not reshape the world as he wants, wtihout turning into the evil he tried to defeat in the first place. As Red Son teaches us, he could become the ultimative benevolent dictator. But that would still not solve the problem he tried to solve.

Without having that much power, he could not each us the story he does. That even if you have all the power, you still can not bend to universe to your will.

[Ninja-Bear]

Christopher its not so much of bending the Universerse to your will, its that people have a thing called Free Will.

[massey]

There is a certain classical formula for "The Hero". It comes to us from ancient stories, older then our current civilisations could ever claim to be. It's core is failure:

Effects of thier deeds? Universal

Suffering? Personal

 

For Superman this manifests differently to other heroes.

He is a god in power effectively able to do whatever he wants/needs to do.

But for all his power he still can not reshape the world as he wants, wtihout turning into the evil he tried to defeat in the first place. As Red Son teaches us, he could become the ultimative benevolent dictator. But that would still not solve the problem he tried to solve.

Without having that much power, he could not each us the story he does. That even if you have all the power, you still can not bend to universe to your will.

Thinking like this is how we got the Star Wars prequels. You don't slavishly follow one guy's interpretation of mythic storytelling cycles. I don't even agree with the video you posted anyway.

 

Superman is not a hero from classical myth, and he follows his own genre rules.

[Wardsman]

I think it's a terrible idea.  It goes against who the character is, who he has always been.  The first time Superman was hit with a nuclear bomb was in the 1940s.  He survived with no problems.  

Citation please? Most early stuff I saw do not point that power level. Are we talking true golden age comics or retconned stuff set in that era?

[Scott Anderson]

Let us assume that 1938 Superman has a SPD of 5, representing slight super-reflexes. To travel slightly greater than 126 MPH at base x2 NCV, he would need base inches of Running equal to 36"; at 60 points above base, a very point-hungry power (that's 133 mph.) to make 133 MPH at x4 NCV, he would need 18" of Running.  That's 29 active points. If we assume he normally moves at rather pedestrian running speed, we can spend 16 points to give him 9" Running with a x8 NCM.

He is able to leap "1/8th of a mile" (660') and "hurdle a 20-story building (about 350').  His base STR gives him a vertical hurdle of 4" (26') and a horizontal leap of 8" (52').  Staggeringly, he needs an additional 100" of leaping (!) noncombat to get to his marks!  Let's bring a bit of physics to the party, and say a leap of 660' would take about five seconds to complete (a 350' hurdle, too, for the sake of system compliance). At the aforementioned SPD 5, that allows for two doublings, or a x4 NCM. Therefore the target base Leaping number is not 54, but a more manageable 26". 26 (target) - 8 (base) = 14. 14 x4 NCM costs an affordable 19 points, and makes more physical sense, too. In fact, let us use the Accurate Adder for an additional 5 points in order to make sure his leaps are "Super" accurate.

1938 Superman can also "raise great weights," and is shown lifting about six and a half tons in the story. A 35 STR would just barely be able to heft that much weight. To be sure he can pick it up and move it around, let's give him a clear superhuman STR of 40.

Finally "nothing short of a bursting she'll can penetrate his skin."  According to FREd, a bursting shell would deal 4d6 to 6d6 Killing damage. Therefore, let us say his invulnerability is at the bottom to middle of that range: 20rPD and 20rED. This allows him to safely bounce bullets off his chest without being utterly secure to the heaviest weapons available to Normals.

[assault]

My take on 1938 Superman. 5e, from a long time ago.

 

The logic I followed was pretty similar to Scott's.

---

 

Golden Age Superman

Val CHA Cost Roll Notes
50 STR 40 19- Lift 25 tons; 10d6 [5]
20 DEX 30 13- OCV: 7/DCV: 7
20 CON 20 13-
10 BODY 0 11-
10 INT 0 11- PER Roll 11-
10 EGO 0 11- ECV: 3
20 PRE 10 13- PRE Attack: 4d6
14 COM 2 12-

18 PD 8 Total: 18 PD (18 rPD)
18 ED 14 Total: 18 ED (18 rED)
4 SPD 10 Phases: 3, 6, 9, 12
14 REC 0
40 END 0
45 STUN 0 Total Characteristic Cost: 134

Movement: Running: 11"/88"
Superleap: 13"/104"
Swimming: 2"/4"

Cost Powers & Skills
30 50% Resistant Physical Damage Reduction: Nothing Less Than A Bursting Shell Can Penetrate His Skin
18 Damage Resistance (18 PD/18 ED): Nothing Less Than A Bursting Shell Can Penetrate His Skin
2 -1" Knockback Resistance: Superstrong, surefooted

14 Life Support: Invulnerable Alien Physiology
Immunity: All terrestrial diseases and biowarfare agents, Safe Environment: Character is safe in Intense Cold, Intense Heat.

5 Regeneration: Invulnerable Alien Physiology
Healing BODY 1d6 (Regeneration; 1 BODY per hour), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +½), Persistent (+½) (20 Active
Points); Self Only (-½), Extra Time + Increased Time Increment (1BODY/Hour; -2¼).

20 Superhuman Speed and Strength: Multipower, 20-point reserve
2u 1) Hurdle A Twenty-Story Building: Leaping +3" (13" forward, 7" upward), x8 Noncombat, Accurate. (18 points total)
2u 2) Faster Then An Express Train: Running +5" (11" total), x8 Noncombat. (20 points total)
2u 3) Smash Through: Tunnelling 1" through 6 DEF Material. (20 points total)

Perks & Skills
3 Acrobatics 13-
3 Breakfall 13-
3 Climbing 13-
3 Conversation 13-
1 KS: Who’s Who In The City 8-
2 Navigation (Land) 11-
2 PS: Reporter 11-
3 Streetwise 13-
1 Fringe Benefit: Press Pass

Total Powers & Skills Cost
250 Total Character Cost

150+ Disadvantages
15 DNPC: Lois, reporter for the Daily Star 11- (Normal)
10 Hunted: Police 8- (Less Pow, NCI, Capture/Kill)
15 Hunted: Ultra-Humanite (As Pow, NCI, Capture/Kill)
20 Psychological Limitation: Dedicated To Helping Those In Need (Common, Total)
20 Psychological Limitation: Pulp Hero's Code (Common, Total)
5 Rivalry: Lois (Professional)
15 Social Limitation: Secret ID (Clark Kent, reporter for the Daily Star) (Frequently, Major)
5 Suscept: Green Kryptonite Radiation, 1d6 STUN/Minute (Uncommon)
250 Total Disadvantage Points

[Christopher]

Superman is not a hero from classical myth, and he follows his own genre rules.

Does he? Watch Men of Steel again. Failure is all over the story. And that is what makes it a good superman story.

 

He failed to keep a low profile, because he could not stop doing "the right thing".

He failed at protecting humanity by turning himself in, because Zod was going to kill them for terraforming anyway.

Most importantly he failed at not killing people, because Zod forced him into the Necksnap. Even though Zod lost, he won.

 

How it should have Ended says he could have avoided that, but doing so would have needed to blindly trust a hologram claiming to be his dad while daming the remainder of his people to a fate worse then death. The person he is needed to give them at least that one chance to proove his dad wrong.

 

Let us assume that 1938 Superman has a SPD of 5, representing slight super-reflexes. To travel slightly greater than 126 MPH at base x2 NCV, he would need base inches of Running equal to 36"; at 60 points above base, a very point-hungry power (that's 133 mph.) to make 133 MPH at x4 NCV, he would need 18" of Running.  That's 29 active points. If we assume he normally moves at rather pedestrian running speed, we can spend 16 points to give him 9" Running with a x8 NCM.

Forget stats for a moment. In a comicbook they never make a lot of sense, between different writers.

 

That you may or may not kill him with a nuke at any give time is nice and all. But you might have to hit a major city with it while doing so. Not to mention that he could dodge or destroy the missile easily.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Watch Man of Steel again. Failure is all over the story

 

 

Yeah but it was all in the writing and tone.

[Christopher]

Yeah but it was all in the writing and tone.

All the good Superman stories have it.

Superman 1 (1978):

It is often asumed that with any form of concurrency during release, it would not have been the success it was. Also it was always a intended prequel for the 2nd film.

His (brief) failure was not to be able to save Lois. Wich resulting in him pushing his travelspeed to the point where he made himself part of a time machine with the earth - similar to the Solar Slingshoot Kirk used in Star Trek 3 - Save the Whales.

 

Superman 2 (1980):

Continuation of the first. He confronts his failures at being human with a "Refusing the call" by turning fully human.

Wich in turn makes this his real failure when the Villains turn up. Travelling back to the fortess remains despite no hope of finding a solution and being 100% human was his dealing with the failure.

 

Superman 3 (1983):

The failure is forced upon him due to Red Kryptonite exposure. And resolved in the "scrapyard fight scene".

Defnitely one of the weaker films.

 

Superman 4 - Quest for peace:

I did say only good films, right? This one kinda prooves my point in multiple directions.

There was no internal conflict. Wich made it not a good film.

It also introduced random new powers, like the "Wall of China Repair Vision". Wich oddly do not feel out of Concept for superman at all.

There is no reason the Superman as shown in the films 1-4 should NOT have the "Mind Erasing Kiss" or "Wall of China Repair beam". Being the lone super in that settings makes him Godlike by nature. And the wall of china thing was just saving some special effects cost.

[massey]

Citation please? Most early stuff I saw do not point that power level. Are we talking true golden age comics or retconned stuff set in that era?

 

Actual Golden Age comic book.  I don't have a scan of the image, but there is this:

 

https://books.google.com/books?id=C1MbjqZkcIgC&pg=PA72&lpg=PA72&dq=1948+superman+atomic+bomb&source=bl&ots=0QJfjeHn66&sig=rBsBeWYWEBq24QsywMWqYKhoW9I&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjjhcT03pPNAhUj04MKHcQVDGQQ6AEIVDAN#v=onepage&q=1948%20superman%20atomic%20bomb&f=false

 

"In October 1946 (Action Comics #101), Superman, driven temporarily insane by an evil cabal's secret chemical formula, forges a path of destruction around the world until a nuclear test blast in the Pacific Ocean clears his head."

 

and

 

"In September 1948 (Action Comics #124), Superman is caught in an explosion at a nuclear reactor and becomes temporarily radioactive, forcing him to keep his distance from Metropolis".

 

 

I've seen a scan of one of these somewhere before, but couldn't find it today.  Of course it mentions a little later that one time Lois dropped one of her homemade muffins on Superman's foot, causing him to leap around in great pain.  So it looks like there are limits to even the Man of Steel's durability.

[Tasha]

I thought the Superman movie with Christopher Reeves did the best job of showing how Superman and Clark could be almost next to each other and people wouldn't figure it out.  Yeah, eventually they would - but they would with all Superheroes, no matter what their secret ID.  Its a Superhero/Comic Book thing, and you just go with it.  Removing that removes some of the charm and fun.

That reminds me of something that happened to me at a previous employer. We had a new guy start, and while I knew that I hadn't physically met him. I knew that there was something very familiar with him. It bugged me for a week or two. One day, I was putting stuff away and not really paying attention to anything else. I started to listen to the guy while he was talking to a customer. As he spoke, it came to me that I knew where I knew him. I knew his voice, he was a radio personality that I used to love to listen to. So after he was done with that customer, I walked up to him and asked him if he was that radio personality. He was surprised that I had recognized his voice and did confirm he was that radio personality. So I imagine that Superman (and other Supers who don't disguise their voice) would run into the same thing from people who would recognize their voice.

[Christopher R Taylor]

I imagine that Superman (and other Supers who don't disguise their voice) would run into the same thing from people who would recognize their voice.

 

 

Again, Christopher Reeves did a good job with that: his voice was actually different as Clark than as Superman.  Much more hesitant, higher pitch, stammering, different word orders, etc.  Superman was cool and confident and smooth.  He also didn't say much except in his interview with Lois.

[Wardsman]

Actual Golden Age comic book.  I don't have a scan of the image, but there is this:

 

https://books.google.com/books?id=C1MbjqZkcIgC&pg=PA72&lpg=PA72&dq=1948+superman+atomic+bomb&source=bl&ots=0QJfjeHn66&sig=rBsBeWYWEBq24QsywMWqYKhoW9I&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjjhcT03pPNAhUj04MKHcQVDGQQ6AEIVDAN#v=onepage&q=1948%20superman%20atomic%20bomb&f=false

 

"In October 1946 (Action Comics #101), Superman, driven temporarily insane by an evil cabal's secret chemical formula, forges a path of destruction around the world until a nuclear test blast in the Pacific Ocean clears his head."

 

and

 

"In September 1948 (Action Comics #124), Superman is caught in an explosion at a nuclear reactor and becomes temporarily radioactive, forcing him to keep his distance from Metropolis".

 

 

I've seen a scan of one of these somewhere before, but couldn't find it today.  Of course it mentions a little later that one time Lois dropped one of her homemade muffins on Superman's foot, causing him to leap around in great pain.  So it looks like there are limits to even the Man of Steel's durability.

Read the link it isn't clear if it was direct hit or not. That does kind of matter. Nuke blasts are big things with the effects varying depending on how close to ground zero you are.

But then again like I said there stories from the same era a howitzer knock him down so go figure.

 

I break down this way. Drama arises from conflict and difficulty. If you can do anything there is conflict, no drama. Boring!

[Christopher]

"In September 1948 (Action Comics #124), Superman is caught in an explosion at a nuclear reactor and becomes temporarily radioactive, forcing him to keep his distance from Metropolis".

They used a variation of this in the Lois & Clark Liveaction series.

 

That reminds me of something that happened to me at a previous employer. We had a new guy start, and while I knew that I hadn't physically met him. I knew that there was something very familiar with him. It bugged me for a week or two. One day, I was putting stuff away and not really paying attention to anything else. I started to listen to the guy while he was talking to a customer. As he spoke, it came to me that I knew where I knew him. I knew his voice, he was a radio personality that I used to love to listen to. So after he was done with that customer, I walked us to him and asked him if he was that radio personality. He was surprised that I recognized his voice and did confirm he was that radio personality. So I imagine that Superman (and other Supers who don't disguise their voice) would run into the same thing from people who would recognize their voice.

We in germany have a thing with having anything we view synchronised with Voice actors (rather the just subtitles).

A funny effect is that we can hear the voices of known celbreties in Radio commercials:

The synchron voices are much cheaper then the real deal, while having similar recognition (but no legal problems).

It is hard to explain how much cooler a car comercial is if it has the Synchron voice of Patric Steward or Bruce Willis (and thus effectively thier voice for everyone not stuck about Original Voiceovers).

 

In the videogame Outcast they used that wonderfully by hiring the synchron Voice of Bruce Willis for the main Character. And that after Cutter Slade already looks so much like Bruce Willis...

 

Read the link it isn't clear if it was direct hit or not. That does kind of matter. Nuke blasts are big things with the effects varying depending on how close to ground zero you are.

But then again like I said there stories from the same era a howitzer knock him down so go figure.

 

I break down this way. Drama arises from conflict and difficulty. If you can do anything there is conflict, no drama. Boring!

Supermans stated ability to "be as strong or weak as the plot demands" is part of what makes him uninteresting from a physical drama point of thinking. It forces him into personal drama.

[massey]

Let us assume that 1938 Superman has a SPD of 5, representing slight super-reflexes. To travel slightly greater than 126 MPH at base x2 NCV, he would need base inches of Running equal to 36"; at 60 points above base, a very point-hungry power (that's 133 mph.) to make 133 MPH at x4 NCV, he would need 18" of Running.  That's 29 active points. If we assume he normally moves at rather pedestrian running speed, we can spend 16 points to give him 9" Running with a x8 NCM.

 

He is able to leap "1/8th of a mile" (660') and "hurdle a 20-story building (about 350').  His base STR gives him a vertical hurdle of 4" (26') and a horizontal leap of 8" (52').  Staggeringly, he needs an additional 100" of leaping (!) noncombat to get to his marks!  Let's bring a bit of physics to the party, and say a leap of 660' would take about five seconds to complete (a 350' hurdle, too, for the sake of system compliance). At the aforementioned SPD 5, that allows for two doublings, or a x4 NCM. Therefore the target base Leaping number is not 54, but a more manageable 26". 26 (target) - 8 (base) = 14. 14 x4 NCM costs an affordable 19 points, and makes more physical sense, too. In fact, let us use the Accurate Adder for an additional 5 points in order to make sure his leaps are "Super" accurate.

 

1938 Superman can also "raise great weights," and is shown lifting about six and a half tons in the story. A 35 STR would just barely be able to heft that much weight. To be sure he can pick it up and move it around, let's give him a clear superhuman STR of 40.

 

Finally "nothing short of a bursting she'll can penetrate his skin."  According to FREd, a bursting shell would deal 4d6 to 6d6 Killing damage. Therefore, let us say his invulnerability is at the bottom to middle of that range: 20rPD and 20rED. This allows him to safely bounce bullets off his chest without being utterly secure to the heaviest weapons available to Normals.

 

Well, it's been a while since I read a reprint of Action Comics #1.  Maybe the stats you give would function for Supes in his first appearance, but as I mentioned earlier, he pretty rapidly displays greater powers than that.  There's no in-universe reason to separate June 1938 Superman from the Superman of say, 1943.  It's still supposed to be the same guy, and while he gradually demonstrated more powers, these were abilities that he was always supposed to have had.  He didn't undergo a radiation accident or anything like that.  So while Superman maybe displays a 40 Str in his first appearance, half a dozen issues later he's doing something that requires a 60 or a 70.

 

Part of the problem with statting out early Superman is that the primary sources (the comics themselves) are kind of hard to find.  There are reprints, and collections, and things like that, but unless you get lucky and find them when they decide to publish them, being able to read the originals can be a pain.  As a result, a lot of the stats people give him are based on either vague power levels mentioned in descriptions (able to leap tall buildings, no less than a bursting shell, etc), or are based on somebody else's writeup that they've seen, or are based on really incomplete information.  A lot of websites get the info on Superman wrong.  I've seen quite a few saying that Golden Age Superman couldn't fly, or that he was strong enough to pick up a car, etc.  When really that's just the very early appearances that had limitations like that.  As I mentioned earlier, by the mid-40s he was zooming around the world and surviving hits by nuclear bombs.

 

There are similar issues with his magic vulnerability.  How it was actually represented in the comics is far different than how it is now perceived.  He was still physically invulnerable, but something like a magical curse that made him become lost, or prevented him from crossing running water, or turn him into a frog, or whatever the needs for that particular story were, that stuff would affect him.  The "I take extra damage from magic attacks" is something that really came about only in the last 20 years or so, once writers based their ideas for the character on some summary that said he was "vulnerable" to it.  Now that's not to say there aren't occasional instances where a magic lightning bolt or something would hurt 1970s Superman, but just as often that sort of thing would bounce off his chest.

[massey]

Read the link it isn't clear if it was direct hit or not. That does kind of matter. Nuke blasts are big things with the effects varying depending on how close to ground zero you are.

But then again like I said there stories from the same era a howitzer knock him down so go figure.

 

I break down this way. Drama arises from conflict and difficulty. If you can do anything there is conflict, no drama. Boring!

 

Superman as a character, other than some very specific times in his long history, is never challenged by conventional military means.  The popular conception of the character understands this as well.  That's not just the case with Superman -- look at the Marvel movies and you can see Cap, the Hulk, Thor, Iron Man, etc, all easily defeating the best that the Army can throw at them.  Any challenge that they face is going to come from a threat that (usually) only they can handle.

 

Superman is one part action hero, one part moral role-model, one part romantic comedy love interest, one part sit-com protagonist, one part center of the DCU, one part guardian angel to planet Earth, one part smug jackass, etc.  On the one hand, he's the guy who saves the Earth when an arch-villain tries to start a nuclear war.  On the other hand, he's the guy who uses his heat vision to burn the Thanksgiving dinner that Lois is cooking because of some Everybody Loves Raymond-style wacky storyline.  You can make very interesting stories with Superman without having his life constantly threatened by some relatively normal opponent.