Paint Grenades Write-Up (5th)

[Marcus Impudite]

The problem with Transform is that a larger target, having a bigger BOD, is less likely to be effected.

 

A paint grenade that turns Zombie Herve Villachaize a bright orange all over should, if it hits Fat Albert, leave a big bright obvious orange stain. If the attack turns Little Debbie orange but leaves the Hulk just as green all over as he ever was because it didn't have enough BOD to effect him, then we are still building it wrong.

 

I think Johnny Appleseed was right, the solution is probably some form of Images.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary dyes an apple orange, then dyes an orange apple.

That's why I gave the build Partial Transform.

[bigbywolfe]

The problem with Transform is that a larger target, having a bigger BOD, is less likely to be effected.

 

A paint grenade that turns Zombie Herve Villachaize a bright orange all over should, if it hits Fat Albert, leave a big bright obvious orange stain. If the attack turns Little Debbie orange but leaves the Hulk just as green all over as he ever was because it didn't have enough BOD to effect him, then we are still building it wrong.

 

I think Johnny Appleseed was right, the solution is probably some form of Images.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary dyes an apple orange, then dyes an orange apple.

Transform has one problem, it goes against Power Defense and Body.  That could probably be solve rather simply with some form of AVAD/NND. 

Meanwhile the only benefit of the suggested Images build was that it was simpler.  However, it was simpler because mechanically speaking it did not remotely do what it was supposed to.  It would take many more Modifiers and most of them would be there for the sole purpose of making Images work more like Transform (affect the targets indefinitely, even after they leave the Power's Range among other issues). 

Lucius, you excel at complex builds and I'm sure you can make Images work, but if it takes someone like you building one of your complicated fixes complete with custom Modifiers, I fail to see what the benefit is to choosing that method.

[Tech]

Paint Grenades:

 

Minor Transform 3d6 (turn target bright orange [+1 to others Sight PER], soap and water washable), Partial Transform (+½), Explosion (+½), (60 Active Points); OAF (-1), Range Based On STR (-¼), 6 Charges (-¾). Real Cost: 20-points.

 

A variation on the dye bombs banks try to slip into the loot bag during a robbery. Doesn't do any BODY or STUN, but could make it difficult for the affected character to hide in a crowd since they've been (fully or partially) painted bright orange. The effects of the grenade are healed by bathing and washing/changing your clothes.

 

Pardon but what is: Partial Transform?

[bigbywolfe]

Pardon but what is: Partial Transform?

From 6E1:

 

Partial Transform (+½): As described above,

characters can perceive Transform “damage”

before the character suffers the full effect of the

Transform, but this has no game effect (no loss of

Characteristics, for example) — it’s just the way

the Power works visually. A Transform with this

Advantage does have gradual game effects before

it’s fully effective. A Minor Transform with this

Advantage inflicts a full Cosmetic Transform

when it does Transform damage equal to half of

the BODY needed to fully Transform the target. A

Major Transform inflicts a full Cosmetic Transform

when it does Transform damage equal to

one-third of the BODY needed to fully Transform

the target, and a full Minor Transform when it

inflicts Transform damage equal to two-thirds the

BODY needed to fully Transform the target. A

Severe Transform inflicts a full Cosmetic Transform

when it does Transform damage equal to

one-fourth of the BODY needed to fully Transform

the target, a full Minor Transform when

it inflicts Transform damage equal to half the

BODY needed to fully Transform the target, and

a full Major Transform when it inflicts Transform

damage equal to three-fourths the BODY needed

to fully Transform the target.

EDIT: And from Champions Complete:

 

Partial Transform (+½): Allows Transform to have gradual

game effects before becoming fully effective. A Minor Transform

inflicts Cosmetic Transform effect when it reaches one-half

the full BODY needed. A Major Transform inflicts Cosmetic

Transform effect upon reaching one-third BODY, and Minor

Transform effect when it reaches two-thirds BODY. A Severe

Transform inflicts Cosmetic effect at one-fourth BODY, Minor at

one-half, and Major at three-fourths.

 

Partial Transform has been in the core rules since at least 5E (when I started playing) but I believe it was in 4E as well, though I couldn't swear to that.

 

EDIT 2.0: Sorry for the 6E references, I am at work and don't have digital copies of 5E.

[Marcus Impudite]

Pardon but what is: Partial Transform?

See 5th Ed Rev pages 241-242.

[ghost-angel]

It doesn't have to go against the Body of the Whole Target - just the Body of their Clothes, typically 0 DEF 1-2 BODY.... or their Costume if it's defined as a Focus.

 

It is elegant in that one aspect.

[Ninja-Bear]

I don't think that works how you think it works.

As a Constant Power without Continuing Charges the Image will disappear as quickly as an Instant Power. Even if you make it last, the person simply leaves the area of the Image Power and is no longer affected by it.

Also, I don't think the use of Surface is appropriate for the AOE, but I may be wrong there.

I believe the original Gadgets! had a it built this way. Bigbywolf if you are hit by a hka, your uniform is considered damaged so why would you leave the images be any different? You being marked is a minor positive of special effect. (If he wanted to be granted a +1 PER then he has to pay for that.)

 

Marcus have you considered change enviroment that can attach to the target?

[Ninja-Bear]

The problem with Transform is that a larger target, having a bigger BOD, is less likely to be effected.

 

A paint grenade that turns Zombie Herve Villachaize a bright orange all over should, if it hits Fat Albert, leave a big bright obvious orange stain. If the attack turns Little Debbie orange but leaves the Hulk just as green all over as he ever was because it didn't have enough BOD to effect him, then we are still building it wrong.

 

I think Johnny Appleseed was right, the solution is probably some form of Images.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary dyes an apple orange, then dyes an orange apple.

Wouldn't standard effect cover this?

[Lucius]

Lucius, you excel at complex builds and I'm sure you can make Images work, but if it takes someone like you building one of your complicated fixes complete with custom Modifiers, I fail to see what the benefit is to choosing that method.

And if someone new to the forums is earnestly trying to make an idea work, I don't see the benefit of badgering them until they shut up and go away.

 

I haven't actually set out to build this power (I might do so, now) but I don't think, in 6th edition, it has to be complicated. Use Area of Effect: Surface. And no, that doesn't mean five guys (assuming you buy that much surface) can scatter and "get out of the area." The effect is attached to a surface, and they are part of the surface it was attached to. If I throw the paint grenade in an empty courtyard and you pry up one of the cobblestones and walk off with it, the top surface of the cobblestone stays bright orange too.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Painting a palindromedary's surface

[bigbywolfe]

And if someone new to the forums is earnestly trying to make an idea work, I don't see the benefit of badgering them until they shut up and go away.

 

I haven't actually set out to build this power (I might do so, now) but I don't think, in 6th edition, it has to be complicated. Use Area of Effect: Surface. And no, that doesn't mean five guys (assuming you buy that much surface) can scatter and "get out of the area." The effect is attached to a surface, and they are part of the surface it was attached to. If I throw the paint grenade in an empty courtyard and you pry up one of the cobblestones and walk off with it, the top surface of the cobblestone stays bright orange too.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Painting a palindromedary's surface

I wasn't trying to badger anyone. Sorry that trying to discuss builds on a RPG forum is apparently upsetting.

 

As to your comment about Surfaces, I don't believe the Surfaces modifier changes how Images and AOE fundamentally work. Images is not a "fire and forget" Power and while a paint grenade SHOULD work as you just described that is not how the Images Power works. That's my whole point. If you are hit with an AOE Transform or take damage that affects your clothes/appearance then when you leave the area you are still Transformed/obviously damaged, because that's what those Powers do. if you leave the area where an Image was being used to make everyone look a certain way the effects of the Image don't magically follow you around like some kind of permanent effect just because of your chosen SFX.

 

EDIT: If there is a way to easily make it so Create Image DOES work that way without blatant handwaving please inform me. That's what I've been asking about all along. If there is precedent for Images to work that way and I'm completely misinterpreting the rules, show me (but as no one else has chimed in to point out any error I don't think I'm misunderstanding anything).

 

EDIT 2.0: If I remember correctly Sticky can be applied to Darkness to make it follow someone around. Perhaps it could do something similar with Images? Not sure if that's RAW or not.

[Lucius]

It doesn't have to go against the Body of the Whole Target - just the Body of their Clothes, typically 0 DEF 1-2 BODY.... or their Costume if it's defined as a Focus.

 

It is elegant in that one aspect.

 

So, basically, Instant Change, Usable as Attack.

 

What happens when the Orangeinator faces Baredevil, the Man Without Clothes? Sure, Transform can "create out of thin air" but giving Baredevil a coat of orange body paint using that rule seems....I'm not sure.

 

Wouldn't standard effect cover this?

Unless I need to go read the rules again standard effect means it would always effect something up to a certain BOD score, and never effect anything with a higher BOD score.

 

Let me imagine how it plays out....

 

The Orangeinator vs The Incredible Hulk:

 

Orangeinator: They won't be calling you the Jolly Green Giant anymore, Hulk! *ZAP*

Hulk: Oh No! Hulk bright orange! Hulk go away now.

 

The Orangeinator vs The Incredible Hulk, Rematch:

 

Orangeinator: I see the orange has worn off, so prepare to dye again, Hulk! Feel the power of the color orange! *ZAP*

Hulk: Little orange man not make sense. Hulk no feel color!

Orangeinator: You're entirely green, not a spot of orange on you! What happened?

Hulk: Hulk spend XP and buy 1 pt of BOD! Hulk immune to orangeination! Hulk smash now!

Orangeinator: *Desperate ZAP*

Hulk: Oh No! Hulk forget Transform cumulative by default! Hulk go away now.

Orangeinator: Am I spending too much just to turn people orange?

Game Operations Director: I'm not sure, but I do know I'm not charging you enough for that Extra PRE, Only vs Orange Targets

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary thinks if we use Transform, Marcus Impudite is right, it needs Partial Transform

[Ninja-Bear]

Lucius I thought (whuch is dangerous) that in fantasy hero the GM could rule that say transform at 20 body could affect anyone. So yeah 10 body gets a break because the user still has to go to 20 body but someone with 30 body gets affected at 20. This means a transform tonstone spell works on anyone as long as you roll the required defined body.

[Lucius]

I wasn't trying to badger anyone. Sorry that trying to discuss builds on a RPG forum is apparently upsetting.

 

edit for clarity: I'm not saying it's something you're doing deliberately. I'd like to think it's something you'd rather avoid doing, which is why I'm pointing it out.

 

I'm not the one you should say "sorry" to. And you don't need to apologize for "trying to discuss builds on a RPG forum." If that were all you were doing, there would be nothing to apologize for. If you read back over the thread I am hoping you will understand and acknowledge that no, that's NOT all you were doing. What you choose to do about that is up to you.

 

As for building paint grenades with Images, I will probably attempt that later on. It may be you're right and it either doesn't work or can't work as well as Transform.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary and I spend a lot of time here not just for love of the game system, but because this is an island of friendliness and civility in an internet that is often anything but friendly and civil. We hope it stays that way.

[Lucius]

Lucius I thought (whuch is dangerous) that in fantasy hero the GM could rule that say transform at 20 body could affect anyone. So yeah 10 body gets a break because the user still has to go to 20 body but someone with 30 body gets affected at 20. This means a transform tonstone spell works on anyone as long as you roll the required defined body.

Sounds like a useful rule, and not just for the Orangeinator.

 

Of course, another issue with Transform is Power Defense.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Sure the palindromedary looks orange now, but that's only skin deep

[Ninja-Bear]

You know this is becoming an example of the idea in Hero system that sometimes you just build a power as close as possible to your idea and then just state that this is how it works.

[bigbywolfe]

Sounds like a useful rule, and not just for the Orangeinator.

 

Of course, another issue with Transform is Power Defense.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Sure the palindromedary looks orange now, but that's only skin deep

Which is why I mentioned AVAD in my first response to you.

[Lucius]

Having studied the issue, I'm starting to think Transform was the best solution after all. I was mistaken for example in thinking it would have no visible effect until passing a BOD threshold. At least, in 6th edition it can have a visible effect from the moment it's applied.

 

But if someone wants to use Images, here is a build for it.

 

Paint Grenade:  (Total: 26 Active Cost, 7 Real Cost) Sight Group Images, +/-1 to PER Rolls, Uncontrolled (+1/2), Sticky (+1/2) (26 Active Points); OAF (-1), Set Effect: Paint it Orange (-1), Can Be Deflected (-1/4), Range Based On Strength (-1/4), 1 Continuing Charge lasting 6 Hours (-0) (Real Cost: 7)

 

 

Focus, Deflected, STR based Range, Charge, are all part of it being a grenade. Set Effect makes something orange, and Uncontrolled and Sticky keep it orange. Uncontrolled also means it can be washed off.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary takes Accidental Change back to normal, whenever subject to a power that changes its form or appearance.

[bigbywolfe]

That is a good build and more elegant than I expected using Images. I'm not sure if it's RAW to use Sticky that way with Images, but there is precedent with its similar use with Darkness (and depending on the setting I would allow it) and Uncontrolled covers most of my other concerns.

[Marcus Impudite]

As for the Power Defense issue, I imagine how big a problem that may be will vary from campaign to campaign, depending on how common (or rare) Power Defense is. If someone builds a Powered Armor Guy with Power Defense, for example, it might be fair enough to assume his armor is coated with Teflon or something.

[IndianaJoe3]

As for building paint grenades with Images, I will probably attempt that later on. It may be you're right and it either doesn't work or can't work as well as Transform.

 

How about Images, AoE, Costs END to Activate, Uncontrolled? The grenade goes off and covers everything in the area with paint. Those objects stay painted until cleaned, removed, or covered. I'm not sure how well it works with Charges, but it doesn't seem unbalancing.

[Armitage]

Lucius I thought (whuch is dangerous) that in fantasy hero the GM could rule that say transform at 20 body could affect anyone. So yeah 10 body gets a break because the user still has to go to 20 body but someone with 30 body gets affected at 20. This means a transform tonstone spell works on anyone as long as you roll the required defined body.

 

 

That sounds like the Absolute Effect rule, not Standard Effect.  It creates the "absolute" situations that the Hero rules normally don't allow, such as complete immunity to damage, never missing a target, or instantly killing anyone.

 

The GM decides that x amount of defense vs. a special effect provides complete immunity, regardless of the actual damage roll, or y Combat Skill Levels make an attack never miss, regardless of the target's DCV, or z Damage Classes kills any target, regardless of their BODY.

[Ninja-Bear]

Armitage I think your right! I didn't double check. Thanks. Anyways I believe its still appropriate. (Absolute rule)

[Manic Typist]

I always liked using an Entangle, 0 DEF, 0 BODY, Does Not Restrain Target (Unless Eyes Or Eye Coverings Hit), Does Not Prevent Movement, Takes No Damage From Attacks, Removed Completely By Washing, etc.  

 

Hm, I kind  of like this idea. Especially if you give it the Visible Limitation (at the -0 level, since it's a Limitation meant to fulfill the purpose of the power) since Visible already has rules for PER modifiers.

 

Thoughts?

[Ninja-Bear]

Hm, I kind of like this idea. Especially if you give it the Visible Limitation (at the -0 level, since it's a Limitation meant to fulfill the purpose of the power) since Visible already has rules for PER modifiers.

 

Thoughts?

Seems like a aweful lot of work whereas instant change usable against others and maybe area effect would be easier.

[Sean Waters]

If this is 5e you could (potentially) use negative skill levels and apply them to their Stealth ability so that they find hiding difficult.  It does not suffer from the Defences/Body problem of Transform or the Images problem if they leave an area, and it is 'tunable' in that you can set a precise value for how obvious the target it.  You could also have it apply to the Tracking skill as paint will drip off you, leaving a trail to follow.