Discussion of Hero System's "Health" on rpg.net

[Vondy]

Definitely adding at least links to POD would be good

 

FFG has a POD page for products.

 

It would certainly be a way to get out of print books that are currently only .pdf's back into print.

 

It would also be a way of putting related, shorter .pdf products into print by bundling them for POD. 

[bluesguy]

Hero has an excellent licensing system by which you can create content for the game and sell it, they will put it on their catalog and take part of the sales, you get the bulk.  So there's no "do stuff for free and they get the profit" here.  Like I've said before: if you want the game to prosper, what are you doing about it?

 

Not "post moar on the forum boards!!" What are you doing to make it happen?

 

Yes less whining and more doing...

 

Chris has done a lot of work producing some great products.  I have bought a few of his products, which are excellent.  I haven't used them yet because the players haven't gotten to places where I ended up putting them in my campaign.  I am sure they will have fun with them.

 

There are many others who have put out products - some small (supplements 5 to 10 pages) and large (Chris' work).  Others have used Kickstarter for funding to make sure there was a market.

 

Hero Combat Manager started out as a project to make my life easier.  It became a product because of how easy it is to license a Hero product.  Also Jason made it easy to figure out pricing.  Dan provided me with some excellent suggestions on my development approach.  And Steve provided encouragement on my project and guidance on some of the combat rules that I needed clarification on. 

[Vondy]

Brainstorming. 

 

A single copy of an 8x11 96-page POD book with a color exterior and black and white interior can be had for $5.32.

 

The price goes down as the volume goes up.

 

This does not include art and layout costs a writer has to come up with.

 

For gaming books to compete in this market, the art cost is the 800-pound gorilla in the room.

 

DC:TAS (119 pg) for example example, has 47 pages with art on them. I counted 6-7 instances of art being reused.

 

Let's assume we need 1 cover, 4 chapter intro pieces, and 35 portraits or mood pieces for art (96 page book)

 

Assuming $45 for portraits (about average), $80 for chapter headings, and $100 for a cover... $1,915.

 

That doesn't include layout and copyediting. How much? No idea. Let's assume you can get it done for $500.

 

Without the writing (presuming you do that yourself), that makes bringing a professionally formatted art-laden book to print not cheap.

 

Printing $200 copies of said book would, at book patch, end up costing $904.40 + shipping.

 

So, we're at $3,319 + shipping before we talk licensing with Jason. 

 

On the other hand, from a kick starter perspective, if you can get 200 backers to pledge $20, you should be able to break even.

 

That means you, the writer, did not make any money - but did get something out.

 

On the other hand, anything sold via the Hero store or POD after that could have profit attached.

 

The kick-starter for Book of the Empress was for $10,000, but the book was twice the number of pages I mentioned.

 

It would have more art, but you are printing half as many copies.

 

They also 1) had known creators on the project, and 2) only printed 100 copies with the lowest level getting a pdf.

 

Still, with a solid idea and a clear vision it could be done!

[Scott Baker]

They also 1) had known creators on the project, and 2) only printed 100 copies with the lowest level getting a pdf.

 

Still, with a solid idea and a clear vision it could be done!

They printed more than 100 copies. The Kickstarter had 132 printed copies to fulfill, and the store still shows 212 in stock. So adjust printing costs accordingly.

[Vondy]

They printed more than 100 copies. The Kickstarter had 132 printed copies to fulfill, and the store still shows 212 in stock. So adjust printing costs accordingly.

 

Assuming 500 total copies, its about $3,500 for printing at book patch. If you put in $1,000 for editing and double the art, for $3,800 total, you've got $8,300 before writers and IP owners (in this case combined). Add in shipping and taxes! They did raise $15,000. I would not presume anything I would write would have the same draw something Steve would write, however. So I'm left with, "is there a market?" And, how do I test that market before just digging into a kick starter? Of course, these are POD numbers... a traditional slow-boat printer may well be cheaper.

[Nolgroth]

Create a couple of PDF only products to test the reception and then run crowd funding for the dead tree versions?

[Vondy]

Create a couple of PDF only products to test the reception and then run crowd funding for the dead tree versions?

 

I'd still have to come up with money for art (and probably layout).

[Christopher R Taylor]

Right, the cost is in the production, not the format.  POD costs you nothing to set up and prepare, only to print.  And the beauty of print on demand is that you can just not print anything until you get buyers.  Having them order off your POD site means no up front thousands to print copies.  If you get the publication costs out of the way, then all that's left is if you want inventory to do the fundraising for copies printed off.  If it doesn't work, then you're out some time but still have product to sell.

[Markdoc]

But why not? If the hobby/industry is as healthy and heavily populated today as it was 20 years ago, there is no reason for any aspect of the business to be different than in "the old days". There are some here trying very hard to convince us all that the hobby is not in decline and is as popular now as it ever was. If this is so, why would a game as well developed and well known as the Hero System find it impossible to reach the same publication numbers as in the 4th ed. era?

 

Or are we supposed to believe that D&D and Pathfinder have 99% of the market today, rather than only 70% of the market that D&D had 20 years ago, leaving everyone that used to thrive in the other 30% now scrambling to survive on their tiny slice of the remaining 1%? If this is true, then there is literally nothing that can be done to meaningfully fix the "health issues" of a system that is being nudged out of existance by a de facto monopoly.

 

I think that what Tasha meant is that if you are not a major player, you won't see the kind of funding that TSR had in the old days, though to be honest, even that is underestimating the real market considerably.

 

To put it in perspective, TSR back in 1996 - the year of peak sales - had fewer than 100 full time employees (not all on RPGs, though), compared to Pathfinder today, which has a bit over 40. Add in the more than 300 WoTC guys (again not all, nor mostly, on RPGs, but still) and their version of D&D, and there seem to be about the same number or more people employed full time on D&D at big gaming companies than there were in the old days.

 

So there are decent-sized companies with full time employees putting out regular product  .... for D&D. Plus ça change ..

 

Given the diversity of the market (and what we can see of sales figures) D&D is still the 800lb gorilla, but its sales actually appear to be a significantly smaller % share of the market than they were in the mid 90's, even though they now appear to be larger in nominal dollar terms. We are really just guessing when it comes to market share, but for the sake of understanding this, it's not terribly relevant if the rest of the market is 30% or (my guess) 50%. Because what has really changed is the number of people in that space. When I started gaming in the early 80's there were - literally - fewer than a dozen gaming companies publishing material. By the mid-90's, that had grown many-fold. Exactly how many, I don't know, but Steve Jackson estimated more than 50. But I just did a quick google search and stopped counting  RPG publishing companies after 300 ...

 

Lucius is right - everybody and his brother's dog is in the vineyard, publishing RPGs, these days. To thrive in this space, a company has to be able to offer something that people really want to buy, because one thing is unmistakably clear, which is that the market is far more competitive than it used to be.

 

But you know what? In this space, there are 'not D&D' companies that are thriving, so it can be done. To take a random example off the top of my head, Fantasy Flight Games has (according to their company profile) between 50 and 200 employees and booked 41 million USD in sales in 2014 (that's the last year of sales before they were acquired). They do more than RPGs, but they have a regular release schedule for their RPG line over recent and coming months (and they produce gorgeous books ... drool). So ... there are actually also companies with full time jobs putting out regular releases in the 'not D&D' space as well. 

 

As an aside, that's why I don't buy the "shrinking market" argument: once you actually start looking at the individual players who are successful you realise how much product they are moving and how much money they are making. It's a lot ...  If all that's true - and it really does seem to be, because otherwise the numbers are impossible to explain - then there is clearly space for companies to thrive in today's RPG market.

 

So, I ask again - why not Hero? I asked three times, and didn't get an answer, so here's my guess

 

If we look at a publisher that is not games + RPGs, but are focused on RPGs, like Green Ronin or Monte Cook Games, you get a more direct comparison to Hero. Both started as single person companies: now Green Ronin has 12 employees, Monte Cook has 8. Both are apparently doing well, with comments about increasing sales - both appear intermittently on IcV2's top 5 sales, which tracks the sales of physical product via shops, confirming the sales talk from the companies. These companies (and they are not unique) are yet more counter-arguments to the 'shrinking market' shtick: there were damn few gaming companies other than TSR and WoTC employing more than a 2-3 people 20 years ago. Now there are quite a lot.

 

So let's look at what they have in common.

First off, slick production. Their websites look good, their product looks good. I don't care for their gaming systems, but I kind of want to buy their stuff anyway, for the same reasons I buy art books.

Second, multiple products. This allows them (I believe) a broader customer base and a staggered release schedule for different products (which means a continuous revenue stream). I'm pretty sure the same people are not playing "No Thank You, Evil!" and The Strange. There is probably a fine line between too many products and not enough, but they seem to be straddling it comfortably.

Third, they actively market their games and themselves, both with physical product and online.

Fourth, both lay heavy focus on their gaming worlds, not their gaming system. Nobody bought Numenera because they desperately wanted a game with a dice pool mechanic, or Dragon Age because they wanted another SAGA-system style game. No, they bough the books (in large quantities for the latter) because they wanted to play in those game worlds.

Thereafter they diverge - Monte Cook has their own lines and concentrates on that, apart from some side work for D&D. Green Ronin has a number of well-known licenced brands (which appear to be among their best sellers) as well as their own lines. That suggests that there is not just one way to be successful.

 

Now there's one thing about the gaming market which has always been an issue (other markets, like software, have the same problem) which is that you are selling a non-consumable product. Once the customer has bought your product they don't need to buy it again. Your only revenue stream is either upgrades (new editions) or add-ons (modules, adventures, figures, etc). You can see this effect in sales figures. When Green Ronin brought out the  M&M  RPG, for example, it swiftly pushed up into the top 5 by sales ... but then disappeared (remember these are only sales through brick and mortar gaming stores - online sales are still apparently OK) once the people who wanted the game had actually bought it. You can see this effect with almost all the games, where new editions provoke a spike in sales, which then subside.

 

Why do I bring this up?

 

Because Hero games has one product: the Hero rules system, and produces relatively few add-ons (Genre books, modules). That, just by itself, puts them into a difficult place. Add to that the problem I mentioned before: that the rules are presented in a form that is not accessible to starting GMs and players, plus the fact that visually the books just don't compare to those from the more successful companies (thus giving the noobie GM even less reason to even pick it up and open it. Last of all, there is no compelling setting to encourage people to even try. Almost all of the people I know who play Hero system were introduced to somebody who was already playing it - there is no easy entry path.

 

To take one example, I really liked the concept of Tuala Morn. I'm a sucker for larger than life Celtic heroes (Just thinking about it, I feel like I'd like to run that kind of game, now). But in terms of production values, it was - honestly? - pretty horrible. You had to actually want the book in advance to pick it up and buy it (Note: I bought it anyway). In terms of content it was a good, solid Celtic legend-based RPG setting, though I have to admit I was hoping for something more epic. I felt like I wanted this and I got this. Not terrible, by any definition. Just not something that said from the first page "Oh god, I want to play this"

 

Without an easy entry path and the visceral pull of "You want to play this game" from the outset, the current situation does not surprise me - in fact, it seems more or less inevitable. Buuut ... there is a patch of light, The fact that Hero games is still here and we are discussing this at all is, to my mind because the game system itself is incredibly robust - probably the best simulationist rule set we have. So I think there *is* a bigger market for it ... if it were marketed and packaged to make entry to the system easier. I am pretty sure that presenting it in the same style as it's been the last decade or so is not going to change anything.

 

cheers, Mark

[Surrealone]

So let's look at what they have in common.

First off, slick production. Their websites look good, their product looks good. I don't care for their gaming systems, but I kind of want to buy their stuff anyway, for the same reasons I buy art books.

Second, multiple products. This allows them (I believe) a broader customer base and a staggered release schedule for different products (which means a continuous revenue stream). I'm pretty sure the same people are not playing "No Thank You, Evil!" and The Strange. There is probably a fine line between too many products and not enough, but they seem to be straddling it comfortably.

Third, they actively market their games and themselves, both with physical product and online.

Fourth, both lay heavy focus on their gaming worlds, not their gaming system. Nobody bought Numenera because they desperately wanted a game with a dice pool mechanic, or Dragon Age because they wanted another SAGA-system style game. No, they bough the books (in large quantities for the latter) because they wanted to play in those game worlds.

 

Your third point is the same as your first point -- i.e. active marketing entails slick production, good looking websites, and good looking products that entice people to buy.  i.e. Marketing is a key factor in success.  To be fair, money is a key factor in marketing; the size of the war chest matters when going to war.

 

But as I previously noted, it's truly ironic that someone whose (per Tasha) "more or less full time job is Indie Press Revolution" can't even be bothered to set up PoD links/mechanisms via Indie Press Revolution for presently PDF-only Hero System books available on this herogames.com site.  Clearly Hero System's owners have no interest in further promotion of their products if they can't even be bothered to take that set of small, simple steps, right?

 

​So why the heck should we care, if their (lack of) actions seem to demonstrate they don't?  And why the heck should we license their products and help drive revenue to them ... if they appear not to care enough to do it for themselves AND if the chances of breaking even are so slim for us due to art/production costs?  Out of the goodness of our hearts???  Communism?  Democratic socialism?  Fanaticism?

 

You hoo-mans must always remember Rule of Acquisition #45: 'Expand or Die...'

[Doc Democracy]

Our reason is keeping alive a system we are invested in, hopefully until such time it becomes vibrant again.

 

It is an activity based on love and hope, not economic sense or rationality.

 

:-)

 

Doc

[Markdoc]

 

Your third point is the same as your first point -- i.e. active marketing entails slick production, good looking websites, and good looking products that entice people to buy.  i.e. Marketing is a key factor in success.  To be fair, money is a key factor in marketing; the size of the war chest matters when going to war.

 

Not really - there are a few deceased games that looked slick but didn't promote themselves and there are plenty of indiegames that actively promote themselves but don't look slick. FATE, for example has similar design style to 6E Hero system (heck they even both have the whole gorillas and biplanes thing going) which is good enough, but not slick.

 

Presentation and proselytising are both aspects of getting people to want a thing, but they are different ways or, perhaps more accurately, different stages of the process.

 

cheers, Mark

[bluesguy]

Brainstorming.

So, we're at $3,319 + shipping before we talk licensing with Jason.

My experience licensing HCM with Jason was easy.  Licensing was not a barrier to creating/selling HCM.

 

Maybe Chris can confirm this as well. 

[Vondy]

Our reason is keeping alive a system we are invested in, hopefully until such time it becomes vibrant again.

 

It is an activity based on love and hope, not economic sense or rationality.

 

:-)

 

Doc

 

Pretty much this.

 

I see anything I might produce as a "break-even leader."

 

Making a few bucks would be great, but underwriting the art and seeing my ideas used would be the big reward.

[Vondy]

My experience licensing HCM with Jason was easy.  Licensing was not a barrier to creating/selling HCM.

 

Maybe Chris can confirm this as well. 

 

I was assuming it wouldn't be too onerous.

 

I'll find out when I mail Jason.

[bigdamnhero]

Fourth, both lay heavy focus on their gaming worlds, not their gaming system.

I think this is a key point. Most gamers these days don't buy RPGs because they like the game mechanics; they buy them because they get excited about the setting and the stories they could tell in it. I think this goes back to our earlier discussion about RPGers today coming from more of a story focus and less from a miniatures/wargaming background. And let's be honest, settings have not exactly been Hero's strong suit. I agree a lot of it is packaging. I also think Tuala Morn was one of the best settings Hero has published, but I bought it because I'm a Hero Loyalist and then fell in love with it only after several hours of reading. Would I have bought it if I'd seen it on the shelf and didn't already have that brand loyalty? I honestly can't say, but I suspect the answer is no. There's not much visually about the book that yells "I'm Fun To Play!" I don't think it's just about art, tho that's obviously a factor - it's about making the fun of a setting more obvious to someone flipping through the book for 2 minutes at the FLGS.

 

Out of curiosity, does anyone know how many full-time employees Pinnacle/Great White Games has? They would seem to be the most obvious comparison to Hero Games in that their main product is a set of generic core rules supporting a wide range of different setting & genre books. Actually...as I was writing that last sentence, I debated whether "supporting" or "supported" was the best word choice, and I think that may be a subtle-but-key distinction: at Pinnacle, the core rules exist to support/drive the setting & adventure books, whereas with Hero it's always kindof felt the other way around to me. I've bought several Pinnacle setting books just to read even tho I'm not crazy about the Savage Worlds system. How many non-Herophiles do you think bought Turakian Age?

[Scott Baker]

My experience licensing HCM with Jason was easy.  Licensing was not a barrier to creating/selling HCM.

 

Maybe Chris can confirm this as well. 

The licensing terms were very easy when I read them. I'm not developing a product to license, but I was certainly interested in how they compared to other companies.

[Christopher R Taylor]

You can see this effect with almost all the games, where new editions provoke a spike in sales, which then subside.

 

This is a pretty well-known effect for RPGs.  There's a limited market (lets face it, this isn't a hugely popular hobby even at its peak) and once everyone has bought the books... they don't buy any more.  Hence: D&D putting out a new edition every few years.

 

 I felt like I wanted this and I got this. Not terrible, by any definition. Just not something that said from the first page "Oh god, I want to play this"

So you wanted Epic1!!!!!!11!!! and got real.

 

 

​So why the heck should we care, if their (lack of) actions seem to demonstrate they don't?  And why the heck should we license their products and help drive revenue to them ... if they appear not to care enough to do it for themselves AND if the chances of breaking even are so slim for us due to art/production costs?  Out of the goodness of our hearts???  

 

Hero Games has been under the exact same model since its very beginning.  In fact, the only game system that advertised outside gaming magazines and cons (which Hero does advertise in), was TSR with those Bill Willingham strips on the back of comics and godawful TV advertisements in the early 80s.

 

Hobbies don't advertise.  Ever seen ad for knitting needles?  Bird watching binoculars?  Chess sets?  When's the last time you saw a banner ad for woodworking?  Not every single business model follows the same pattern.  Youcan't pick one model of business learned in a class in school and figure every single company and industry is like that.  All those questions have already been answered above.  You can sit here and complain about how things aren't falling out of the sky into your lap, or get out and make something happen.  Its your choice.

[Scott Baker]

If we look at a publisher that is not games + RPGs, but are focused on RPGs, like Green Ronin or Monte Cook Games, you get a more direct comparison to Hero. Both started as single person companies: now Green Ronin has 12 employees, Monte Cook has 8. Both are apparently doing well, with comments about increasing sales - both appear intermittently on IcV2's top 5 sales, which tracks the sales of physical product via shops, confirming the sales talk from the companies. These companies (and they are not unique) are yet more counter-arguments to the 'shrinking market' shtick: there were damn few gaming companies other than TSR and WoTC employing more than a 2-3 people 20 years ago. Now there are quite a lot.

 

So let's look at what they have in common.

First off, slick production. Their websites look good, their product looks good. I don't care for their gaming systems, but I kind of want to buy their stuff anyway, for the same reasons I buy art books.

Second, multiple products. This allows them (I believe) a broader customer base and a staggered release schedule for different products (which means a continuous revenue stream). I'm pretty sure the same people are not playing "No Thank You, Evil!" and The Strange. There is probably a fine line between too many products and not enough, but they seem to be straddling it comfortably.

Third, they actively market their games and themselves, both with physical product and online.

Fourth, both lay heavy focus on their gaming worlds, not their gaming system. Nobody bought Numenera because they desperately wanted a game with a dice pool mechanic, or Dragon Age because they wanted another SAGA-system style game. No, they bough the books (in large quantities for the latter) because they wanted to play in those game worlds.

Thereafter they diverge - Monte Cook has their own lines and concentrates on that, apart from some side work for D&D. Green Ronin has a number of well-known licenced brands (which appear to be among their best sellers) as well as their own lines. That suggests that there is not just one way to be successful.

Side note:

 

I believe that Monte Cook Games may become more of a direct comparison to Hero Games, which will make it interesting to track (to whatever extent we can) how they perform. Post-The Strange, they broke out their core rules (the Cypher System) so that you could create your own worlds. In their latest Kickstarter, they are creating add-on books of additional settings. Sounds a lot like Hero System + setting.

[Vondy]

This is a pretty well-known effect for RPGs.  There's a limited market (lets face it, this isn't a hugely popular hobby even at its peak) and once everyone has bought the books... they don't buy any more.  Hence: D&D putting out a new edition every few years.

 

So you wanted Epic1!!!!!!11!!! and got real.

 

 

Hero Games has been under the exact same model since its very beginning.  In fact, the only game system that advertised outside gaming magazines and cons (which Hero does advertise in), was TSR with those Bill Willingham strips on the back of comics and godawful TV advertisements in the early 80s.

 

Hobbies don't advertise.  Ever seen ad for knitting needles?  Bird watching binoculars?  Chess sets?  When's the last time you saw a banner ad for woodworking?  Not every single business model follows the same pattern.  Youcan't pick one model of business learned in a class in school and figure every single company and industry is like that.  All those questions have already been answered above.  You can sit here and complain about how things aren't falling out of the sky into your lap, or get out and make something happen.  Its your choice.

 

I don't think its fair for people with a creative spark to expect others to possess their desires and gifts.

 

Not everyone is built to create.

[Christopher R Taylor]

I agree, but there are other ways to contribute, as I noted above.  Its a matter of desire and passion and ambition, not ability.  Say you can't create much, have no artistic talent, or writing ability.  You can back kickstarters, you can talk to gamer friends, you can run a game at a CON or at the local stores, you can put up fliers to get people to come learn how to play on your own.  You can find people with talent and help them get their product out.  You can post promoting rather than degrading stuff around the internet about Hero.

 

Or you can sit at a keyboard and complain on a forum.

[Tasha]

Side note:

 

I believe that Monte Cook Games may become more of a direct comparison to Hero Games, which will make it interesting to track (to whatever extent we can) how they perform. Post-The Strange, they broke out their core rules (the Cypher System) so that you could create your own worlds. In their latest Kickstarter, they are creating add-on books of additional settings. Sounds a lot like Hero System + setting.

 

Hero's been about System + Generic Genre more than anything. The settings seemed to be checking stuff off a list. I would love to see a number of them redone by someone who can write more dynamically. Also with a look towards getting into the world instantly.

 

MCG's Cypher System rulebook has been simmering for around a year now. That KS is around $230k right now which has funded all 3 game world books and has added page count to all books, free poster maps and financed upgrades to Hard Cover. And a number of Card Decks were also financed.

[Vondy]

Hero's been about System + Generic Genre more than anything. The settings seemed to be checking stuff off a list. I would love to see a number of them redone by someone who can write more dynamically. Also with a look towards getting into the world instantly.

 

Spot on!

[bigdamnhero]

In fact, the only game system that advertised outside gaming magazines and cons (which Hero does advertise in), was TSR with those Bill Willingham strips on the back of comics and godawful TV advertisements in the early 80s.

I see ads for other RPGs all the time, not to mention board and card games. Not on TV or in Newsweek, obviously, but in comic books and geek magazines. Heck, try to find a comic book that doesn't have a Steve Jackson ad in it. And then of course there are tons of online ads, which granted have a much lower sales rate than "traditional" ads, but are also dirt cheap and can be reasonably effective if targeted at a particular niche market. 

 

I think this is the false dichotomy that dooms a lot of small companies - the idea that if you can't afford lots of Big Media Ads, then you can't afford to advertise. The reality is there are tons of ways to get the word out, many of which cost next to nothing, especially if you have a pool of rabid die-hard fans willing to help with some legwork and word of mouth. But the company has to be willing to put something in motion.

[zslane]

Right, so the gist of Markdoc's analysis is that Hero Games is simply not doing any of the things necessary to compete in the RPG space (what I referred to as "functioning as a legitimate publisher"). And trust me, HG is not competing. It is barely surviving, and only on the strength of the devotion of its hardcore following.

 

As I've said before, talking about what Hero Games should be doing with its products is missing the forest for the trees. The lack of compelling campaign settings and Ready To Play beginner products is a symptom, not the disease. Merely treating the symptom(s) is futile; it is the disease that needs to be eradicated.

 

Now, I don't know how to eradicate the disease since [a] I am not a business guru, nor do I have a pile of cash to throw at the problem. But let's not kid ourselves about what really needs to be done. Until the community can find both [a] and somewhere, any debate over what tune to whistle into the howling winds is pretty pointless.