Discussion of Hero System's "Health" on rpg.net

[Tasha]

Besides, what games system DOESN'T have a fan base who creates stuff for the base game. Stuff that can't be sold due to copywrite issues ie. Conversions of properties that an individual will never be able to get a licence for ie StarWars, The Walking Dead etc.

 

Fans evangelize their favorite system, it's what we DO. It's what Savage Worlds fans do, it's what ALL Fans do. We aren't asked to do so, but we do it because we like the game we are playing and want others to play it with us.

If I were to write something original and wanted to publish it and get paid, I would contact Jason for a Hero System Licence contract. If I wanted to do the same for Savage Worlds, I would contact them for a similar licence. Or I could publish though a company that already had those licences. I would get paid for my work in either case.

 

I don't know how you think companies advertise their games. There USED to be gaming magazines that companies could advertize in. That's all gone thanks to the Internet. I guess they could buy some banner ads or something, but those can be obnoxious. I see the other companies use Social Media (which Hero has a presence on), they also use Kickstarter which also gets the system's name out. I would say that no ad in a game magazine brought me to any system. Word of mouth and friends evangelizing the system is what brought me to play Hero. I think seeing groups playing the game in game stores and conventions is more powerful than ANY paid ads would be.

[Vondy]

Fans evangelize their favorite system, it's what we DO. It's what Savage Worlds fans do, it's what ALL Fans do. We aren't asked to do so, but we do it because we like the game we are playing and want others to play it with us.

 

Speaking of which, and this is not where my talents lay, but evangelists do push awareness. SW, for instance, has tons of fans posting "how to," "101," and review clips on YouTube. Those fans are doing it because they want to. I think Hero could very much benefit from a well-spoken fan with some video editing skills producing a series of "concept" and "how to" videos. Add in a few good interviews (steve, susano, storn!) and it would raise consciousness of Hero - and dispel myths. And, speaking of SW, while the system is much simpler than Hero, its organization is a mess. Those videos help clear up confusion that mess creates.

[Tholomyes]

Speaking of which, and this is not where my talents lay, but evangelists do push awareness. SW, for instance, has tons of fans posting "how to," "101," and review clips on YouTube. Those fans are doing it because they want to. I think Hero could very much benefit from a well-spoken fan with some video editing skills producing a series of "concept" and "how to" videos. Add in a few good interviews (steve, susano, storn!) and it would raise consciousness of Hero - and dispel myths. And, speaking of SW, while the system is much simpler than Hero, its organization is a mess. Those videos help clear up confusion that mess creates.

 

I know of at least 1 streamer who runs a semi-regular champions game on his stream. His audience isn't huge, but stuff like that can expose more people to the system, as well as take the very weighty (figuratively and literally) rules tomes and put things in a context of an actual game.

 

However, while, I think that the idea could work, once people are already interested, I'm not sure how well how to/101 videos would work with HERO, as far as pushing awareness: as you mentioned SW is simpler, if less organized; the create a character videos I've seen for SW are about an hour; I could watch one of those in a lunch break, especially if I made use of youtube's speed controls. While creating a HERO character in an hour is reasonable, doing so in a step by step way that's accessible to new people is harder. Once a podcast or dedicated HERO streaming channel got enough viewers, people might be down to sit through a "How to" video, but I think the requirement of a longer or multi-part video would make it less accessible for potential fans, without something else initiating interest.

[Vondy]

I know of at least 1 streamer who runs a semi-regular champions game on his stream. His audience isn't huge, but stuff like that can expose more people to the system, as well as take the very weighty (figuratively and literally) rules tomes and put things in a context of an actual game.

 

However, while, I think that the idea could work, once people are already interested, I'm not sure how well how to/101 videos would work with HERO, as far as pushing awareness: as you mentioned SW is simpler, if less organized; the create a character videos I've seen for SW are about an hour; I could watch one of those in a lunch break, especially if I made use of youtube's speed controls. While creating a HERO character in an hour is reasonable, doing so in a step by step way that's accessible to new people is harder. Once a podcast or dedicated HERO streaming channel got enough viewers, people might be down to sit through a "How to" video, but I think the requirement of a longer or multi-part video would make it less accessible for potential fans, without something else initiating interest.

 

A lot of this depends on organization, planning, and the kind of character you are building. I don't know about 6e, but in 5e I could build a character with a new player in less than an hour. Some people are better at clear and concise presentation than others. Also, broken down into discreet parts, you could cover core hero concepts in 10-minute videos (I used to do radio and ten minutes is a lot of time).

[Ninja-Bear]

True. However, the fact that Hero System is copyrighted instead of in the public domain ... tells you what it's about.

 

Heaven forbid someone point out the double-standard of expecting the community to donate time/materials/effort without upside (and, at best, a faint hope of breaking even) ... while failing to levy the exact same expectation on the copyright owners. Gotta block that! (Frankly, I'm unsurprised.)

You never belonged to a martial arts school? Putting on demos, flyering parking lots, cleaning the school, help run tournaments? All while paying tutition. (Its a time honored tradition)

[Christopher R Taylor]

Well, people really like Youtube vids, particularly for learning things.  If you can be at least somewhat entertaining and know how to edit (to cut out all the Uhhh.. and "i'm looking for" parts) people do look up videos any time they want to know how to

[Vondy]

For me, I have experience cutting audio, but no experience with video.

 

And then, there's the cost of the camera, mic, lights, etc.

[bluesguy]

I know of at least 1 streamer who runs a semi-regular champions game on his stream. His audience isn't huge, but stuff like that can expose more people to the system, as well as take the very weighty (figuratively and literally) rules tomes and put things in a context of an actual game.

 

Please post that link.

[Surrealone]

Fans evangelize their favorite system, it's what we DO. It's what Savage Worlds fans do, it's what ALL Fans do. We aren't asked to do so, but we do it because we like the game we are playing and want others to play it with us.

It's what some people do, not all people.  And, in fact, some people here (Christopher, for example) seem to expect people to do it and, in fact, actively suggest as much (see previous posts in this thread).  Then again, apparently he's got work here that's up for sale, so of COURSE he wants people to put forth free marketing for this system, as he has the potential to see financial upside from such efforts, just like the copyright owners do.

 

 

You never belonged to a martial arts school? Putting on demos, flyering parking lots, cleaning the school, help run tournaments? All while paying tutition. (Its a time honored tradition)

No, I have never been a member of a for-profit group that that required or expected me to perform labor for it without any kind of award/reward for that labor.  I've been a member of non-profit groups to which I and everyone else donated time/effort/materials -- but Hero System isn't a non-profit entity.  I've been a member of for-profit entities that sold things to raise money each year -- but the sellers were always incented to sell by receiving a piece of each sale.

 

And there you have it -- if donated time/effort is something expected regarding Hero System, then shouldn't it be non-profit or public domain?  Or ... if it's going to be for-profit, then shouldn't Hero System incent people to put up fliers, run its games at cons or local shops, etc?

[Tasha]

So I guess you have never convinced your friends to go see a Movie or play a game that they don't know about or are undecided about? You have never told a friend or family about a store where you got good service or a product that you really liked (ie I really like Coke Zero, it's my favorite Diet Cola. It's like regular coke, but without sugar). Perhaps even talked about a book that you read by an author that a friend or family member hadn't heard of. If you have done any of those things (and I know that everyone has enthused about some product to a friend, acquaintance or family member) then you have evangelized a product.

 

People at one game store started to play Pathfinder once I started to run a game there. It was the same with 3.0 D&D. Those are all forms of evangelizing a game you love to play. I often will run a new system that interests me. I have run Champions and Hero for my group for short runs multiple times. While it's not a go to system for them, they do enjoy the games that I run using the system.

If you don't want to ask your friends to play the game you like, then that's up to you. Of course, you won't have anyone to play the game with. Except for the times you get into a convention game of Hero/Champions.

 

So IF you want to see some sort of Advertising. Perhaps you can share your marketing strategy. Also, please point out other companies that have used your strategy (or any strategy that includes ad Buys). Please keep your examples to this century (which will give you a 16 year window).

 

I think that you will find that NO game companies bother with Advertising (ie Ad buys in Publications, Television, Radio, Website ads etc). I don't think they work for RPGs. What seems to work for RPGs are good cover art, explanation text about the system on the cover, being available in game stores, Also having a webstore. The other thing that helps is Word of Mouth. People who want to play the game, and who talk about the game everywhere they can.

[Tholomyes]

Please post that link.

 

My timing was perhaps a bit unfortunate. While things had seemed to be getting back into the swing of things with that campaign, the GM in question (not much more than an hour after I posted, mind you) mentioned on twitter that he might be taking a break from GMing for a bit. Here is the link for the recordings of the first few sessions, though.

[Lord Liaden]

A lot of this depends on organization, planning, and the kind of character you are building. I don't know about 6e, but in 5e I could build a character with a new player in less than an hour. Some people are better at clear and concise presentation than others. Also, broken down into discreet parts, you could cover core hero concepts in 10-minute videos (I used to do radio and ten minutes is a lot of time).

 

A lot also depends on the genre. Most Hero pulp or modern-adventure characters can easily be built in under half an hour. Same with fantasy or sci-fi characters, unless they're significantly non-human or magic-heavy.

[Tasha]

A lot of this depends on organization, planning, and the kind of character you are building. I don't know about 6e, but in 5e I could build a character with a new player in less than an hour. Some people are better at clear and concise presentation than others. Also, broken down into discreet parts, you could cover core hero concepts in 10-minute videos (I used to do radio and ten minutes is a lot of time).

 

Character gen 5e-6e isn't that different. I can build a straight forward character pretty quickly. I do like complicated builds, but that's because of all of the time we spent playing Fantasy Hero. Just got in the habit of building quirky stuff. I think that building characters may actually be quicker in 6e. I don't have to worry about Figured Characteristic bases. 

[bigdamnhero]

Heaven forbid someone point out the double-standard of expecting the community to donate time/materials/effort without upside (and, at best, a faint hope of breaking even) ... while failing to levy the exact same expectation on the copyright owners.  Gotta block that!  (Frankly, I'm unsurprised.)

And if the company was expecting us to do any of that, you might have a point. Instead what I see is some fans offering to donate some of their time to help, which is a completely different equation. If you can't/don't want to donate, then don't.

[Ninja-Bear]

I know Cassandra gets ribbing from time to time about dome if her 250 pt builds. However have you guys seen the amount characters she posts? I think that is an example of how prebuilts can work.

[Vondy]

A lot also depends on the genre. Most Hero pulp or modern-adventure characters can easily be built in under half an hour. Same with fantasy or sci-fi characters, unless they're significantly non-human or magic-heavy.

 

Agreed, I think a good start would be a straight forward heroic character. You might, ahead of time, decide on a concept that could accommodate heroic talents or super-skills so that you can introduce the concept (which, of course, leverages the powers section of the book). I'd explain that we were going to start with a simple character build, build the character while explaining the essential pieces, and then say "In our next video, we'll show you how to..." and then add complexity to the character they've already seen built.

[sureshot73]

I don't think he even really cares.

 

 

All you know about me is what I post. We have never met. So how do you know anything about me outside of these boards. Don't speak for me and don't make any comments about my character. Are we clear. 

[Vondy]

Character gen 5e-6e isn't that different. I can build a straight forward character pretty quickly. I do like complicated builds, but that's because of all of the time we spent playing Fantasy Hero. Just got in the habit of building quirky stuff. I think that building characters may actually be quicker in 6e. I don't have to worry about Figured Characteristic bases. 

 

I sat down with my (largely unused) version of Champions Complete to convert our FFG Star Wars characters to Hero. I like it a lot, but I first played Hero in 1983 and made it my system of choice in 1990. For me, the system is second nature. My wife and youngest daughter are fairly green role-players and the bigger stat block was intimidating, so I ended up using 5e.

 

I agree that character creation is "basically the same," but OCV/DCV are to hero as THAC0 was to AD&D, and acronyms don't help. I ended up renaming OCV "Attack" and DCV "Defend." Weirdly, PD and ED also gave pause. Again, acronyms don't help. Simple language is a must for newbies. Experienced gamers often forget that we are mathematically modelling abstract concepts. In other words, we sound like we're spouting out arcane gibberish. Acronyms smack of uber-geek jargon.

 

I decided I'd rather explain CVs at run time as a practical exercise than having to go off on a tangent (rabbit hole) while introducing the characters. How OCV/DCV works is worthy of its own video, but traditionally, you introduce people to a game by building a character and just playing. Separate concepts come up as play proceeds. Having to explicitly make that decision before play begins raises the bar for beginners to get started. 

 

I like having OCV/DCV divorced from DEX, but I've been gaming since 1977. Playing with people who are "new," and having to explain it, and seeing where they run into problems, has been an eye opener.

[sureshot73]

Have you seen Champions Complete or Fantasy Hero Complete?

 

I have. It's good but very small step in the right direction. You would need something in a smaller and cheaper format. It's all good to make the system easier. Not so good when your competition can offer their core rules for between 10-25$. They also need to find some way to get the 6E core in print. If only to clear out the remaining copies of volume 2 that they have. Asking the fans to do it is good but many like myself are not interested. I have enough to do with my own life. I don't have the time or willigness to save someone else. 

[Vondy]

All you know about me is what I post. We have never met and that makes you a expert on me. Don't ever and I mean ever put words in my mouth. Are we clear. 

 

I am not a moderator nor do I play one on television.

 

I don't mean to be a smarty pants, but the whole "don't ever and I mean ever" raises the question "or what?" You'll get miffed? You'll put scary pixels on a screen? You don't know him. You don't know where he lives. And, even if you did, would you get out of your chair and go find him to do something about it? We all know that's not going to happen. Internet chest beating is empty and counter productive. Huffing and puffing doesn't impress or intimidate. Its hollow and, when the dust settles, looks silly.

 

I had a board member threaten to "kick my ass" several years ago. I'll tell you what this non-moderator did: I sent him a private message with my address. Why? To call his bluff and demonstrate the emptiness of his posturing. I'd have loved a good throw down with him, but he was never really going to give me one. This ends one of three ways: you escalate and then implode under the moderators' iron guantlet, you ignore it and move on, or, if you're a one in the million who would get on a plane to commit assault over an Internet offense, you go to jail.

 

If it bothers you a great deal, we have an ignore function on the boards. Or, you could express your offense without the chest-beating and tone of command with no authority behind it. "Are we clear?" About what? That he's got your number? Yeah, that's abundantly clear.

[sureshot73]

If he knew my personal habits or knew me in person it's one thing. He makes a assumption and a wrong one about me. Without knowing what the hell he is talking about. There was no reason for it beyond that I dared to be critical of his favored rpg. I could have written a better post. I'm not going to apologize for defending myself. 

[Simon]

I AM a moderator.

Actually, yes.  Yes, you are.

 

You'll have 24 hours from now to apologize for taking things WAY too far in your posting style and addressing the posters with thinly veiled threats.  What happens after that if you don't? You no longer to get take part in these forums.

[Tasha]

I sat down with my (largely unused) version of Champions Complete to convert our FFG Star Wars characters to Hero. I like it a lot, but I first played Hero in 1983 and made it my system of choice in 1990. For me, the system is second nature. My wife and youngest daughter are fairly green role-players and the bigger stat block was intimidating, so I ended up using 5e.

 

I agree that character creation is "basically the same," but OCV/DCV are to hero as THAC0 was to AD&D, and acronyms don't help. I ended up renaming OCV "Attack" and DCV "Defend." Weirdly, PD and ED also gave pause. Again, acronyms don't help. Simple language is a must for newbies. Experienced gamers often forget that we are mathematically modelling abstract concepts. In other words, we sound like we're spouting out arcane gibberish. Acronyms smack of uber-geek jargon.

 

I decided I'd rather explain CVs at run time as a practical exercise than having to go off on a tangent (rabbit hole) while introducing the characters. How OCV/DCV works is worthy of its own video, but traditionally, you introduce people to a game by building a character and just playing. Separate concepts come up as play proceeds. Having to explicitly make that decision before play begins raises the bar for beginners to get started. 

 

I like having OCV/DCV divorced from DEX, but I've been gaming since 1977. Playing with people who are "new," and having to explain it, and seeing where they run into problems, has been an eye opener.

 

IMHO 6e needs someone to go through it with an eye to seeing what things can be gotten rid of ie do we really need all of those Presence based skills, or is there some over lap between them that we can use to reduce the number of skills. Really the same with the whole skill list. With the secondaries being separated from the primaries, it's quite possible that we can get rid of some stats as well. Perhaps rename some of them for celerity. Also while not making it harder to build things. Add some things back to the system ie Make Instant change a Talent for Champions. look at points vs functionality. ie is Change environment too expensive? Are Skill levels too expensive (yes), Is there a good way to increase granularity of Killing attacks esp for Heroic Games. Is there a way we can fix Mental Abilities so they are actually worthwhile in powerlevels less than 50points. Is there a better way of dealing with Long term Mental effects?

 

I have some ideas about this, but from what I have seen the fanbase will be very resistant to any real changes.

 

I would love to see a long public beta test, where we try out new things and talk about how they worked out in play. Perhaps even run some demo games of the beta at conventions. Pound on the rules and see how they stand up.

[Vondy]

Not a new brainstorm... I brought this up on the 6e development boards. I admit, most people didn't like it.

 

I'm a skill fiend (and I love me some presence skills), but every so often I wonder "why does Hero have a skill list?" I say this primarily because of the background skill system. I have four different kinds of open-ended skills that I can define as loosely or finely as I want.These skills also, in many ways, overlap and/or are capable of duplicating the existing skill list.

 

Do I really need Combat Driving and Transport Familiarity if I have PS: Ace Wheel Man 14-? Do I need Open Locks or Security Systems if I have PS: Expert Safe-Cracker 14-? Do I need charm, conversation, and persuasion if I have PS: Vamp or Ladies's Man 14-? True, a very broadly defined background skill like "PS: Cat Burglar 14-" might cover Climbing, Stealth, Open Locks, and Security Systems, but for many games or styles of play, that's a feature rather than a bug.

 

And, as a bonus, the flavor text provides definition not only for the skill, but color for the character. Is a ladies man equally effective with men he's not trying to charm? Is a vamp, even if she has a lot of force of personality, going to be able to work straight women the same way she can men or women who prefer women? In most cases, probably not. If a GM thinks that's too cheap or not granular enough, or abusive, they can simply require the skills to be defined more narrowly!

 

That said, a skill list does give a new player or GM a list of "pregenerated skills" to pick from, and does give some structure for the kinds of things skills do, but it really should vary genre to genre and game to game - and to a degree, does provide conceptual training wheels. But, overall, I find defining background skills much more satisfying (and character forming) than picking from the main skill list.

[Christopher R Taylor]

IMHO 6e needs someone to go through it with an eye to seeing what things can be gotten rid of ie do we really need all of those Presence based skills, or is there some over lap between them that we can use to reduce the number of skills.

Perhaps better would be to have the larger skill list in the core rules and then for the other games, fewer as befits the genre.  Does fantasy Hero need Forensic Medicine and Computer Programming?  Does a gritty cop game need High Society, or Ventiloquism?  So the genre books don't need all of those skills listed.  They can refer to a larger list in the core rules to show what else is optionally possible but don't need the whole skill list.