Discussion of Hero System's "Health" on rpg.net

[Christopher R Taylor]

Something I've long leaned toward is that instead of a list of "everyman" skills for a campaign, characters get an 8- roll in just about any skill.  There are some very highly specialized skills like contortionist or mimicry that someone really has to have training to attempt, but almost all skills just about anyone can give a shot and have a chance at pulling off.  You don't need special training to try a criminalist roll: footprints, blood, stab wounds.  Stealth, conversation, shadowing, almost any of them you can try and might succeed if you get lucky.

[Vondy]

Something I've long leaned toward is that instead of a list of "everyman" skills for a campaign, characters get an 8- roll in just about any skill.  There are some very highly specialized skills like contortionist or mimicry that someone really has to have training to attempt, but almost all skills just about anyone can give a shot and have a chance at pulling off.  You don't need special training to try a criminalist roll: footprints, blood, stab wounds.  Stealth, conversation, shadowing, almost any of them you can try and might succeed if you get lucky.

 

In cinematic pulp games I've done something similar to this, but used a 10- roll.

 

Its a genre where characters seem to break out with "I can do that!" a lot.

 

It just seems to move things along and free up the player's thinking in terms of trying things.

 

Specialized skills (cryptography, etc) would certainly require some training, but many, as you say, don't.

[Ninja-Bear]

I'm confused. Where are we paying a higher cost?

I didn't say we were. Im wondering if skills should act more like CSL where you pay more points it covers more maneuvers. Now you can buy skill levels which can affect a class of skills I.e. agility however though you must already have agility skills bought. Instead could we pay more points for a broader skill like scientist above post and not have to define what science skills the bonus applies to.

[Vondy]

I didn't say we were. Im wondering if skills should act more like CSL where you pay more points it covers more maneuvers. Now you can buy skill levels which can affect a class of skills I.e. agility however though you must already have agility skills bought. Instead could we pay more points for a broader skill like scientist above post and not have to define what science skills the bonus applies to.

As I understand and read the 5e and TUS* texts you would pay:

 

1 point for +1 w. a non-characteristic based SS.

2 points for +1 w. a characteristic based SS.

3 points for +1 w. a "tight group" of science skills.

5 points for +1 w. all science skills

 

What is unclear to me, however, is whether you could purchase:

 

8 points for +1 w. all background skills.

 

I say this because I can already pay:

 

8 points for +1 w. all non-combat skills

 

In theory, most background skills are non-combat skills and theoretically should be covered. But, some might argue that applies to the characteristic-based non-combat skills on the skill list. Personally, I assume "all non-combat skills" means what it says it means. On the other hand, I could see some concepts that leverage background skills a lot taking:

 

8 points for +1 w. all background skills.

 

Such a character would not get the bonus for skills from the main skill list (acrobatics, electronics, etc).

[phoenix240]

In cinematic pulp games I've done something similar to this, but used a 10- roll.

 

Its a genre where characters seem to break out with "I can do that!" a lot.

 

It just seems to move things along and free up the player's thinking in terms of trying things.

 

Specialized skills (cryptography, etc) would certainly require some training, but many, as you say, don't.

 

I think something like this would be very campaign and situation dependent as you say. There is a tendency for people to underestimate how difficult some things are. And mostly the information gained would be the kind of thing that almost wouldn't require a roll at all. IMO. Anyone might be able to tell the general direction of blood spatter, for example but not any other details that might be gained. Even trained professionals make mistakes.  It also Feels like it sort of devalues skills especially if you allow bonuses for Extra time and help, IMO. 

 

But. OTOH, its only a sentence to add as an option. "Instead of or in addition too, Everyman skills, GM's can allow a 8- roll for any Skill they feel is appropriate." And it could be presented in setting books as an example of how to use Hero mechanics to shape the flavor of a particular game world. 

[Vondy]

PS: Drunk Epistemology 14-

[phoenix240]

PS: Drunk Epistemology 14-

 

Hm? 

[L. Marcus]

It's a small profession.

[Vondy]

It's a small profession.

 

The few, the proud, the drunk epistemologists. 

[Ninja-Bear]

Here is another glitch of skills. Since permanent size is now bought as skills and powers, it is recommended that to represent small size, you buy concealment levels. However by RAW, you cannot add those levels if you don't have the full. So in effect you are forcing a character to spent points either on a) a useless ability or spend points on a skill which they may not want to increase. Personally I home Rule that you CAN add them together.

[IndianaJoe3]

Here is another glitch of skills. Since permanent size is now bought as skills and powers, it is recommended that to represent small size, you buy concealment levels. However by RAW, you cannot add those levels if you don't have the full. So in effect you are forcing a character to spent points either on a) a useless ability or spend points on a skill which they may not want to increase. Personally I home Rule that you CAN add them together.

 

Would Change Environment (penalties to Perception rolls) work better?

[Vondy]

Would Change Environment (penalties to Perception rolls) work better?

 

If we have to resort to a power build to accomplish a fairly straightforward skill effect, its definitely a glitch.

[phoenix240]

Would it a be a special case for Shrinking and other Power effects or in general? If you can add Skill Levels to Familiarity Skills doesn't that encourage buying allot of Fams cheap then using Skill levels to boost them? You can only use the Skill Levels on one skill at a time but, IME, you usually only need one skill at a time unless you're going for complimentary rolls. But, this would also help with one of the issues some had with Striking Appearance. 

[phoenix240]

Would Change Environment (penalties to Perception rolls) work better?

 

I guess it could work. It complicates things quite a bit. But it does make sense from a certain perspective. The character isn't necessarily skilled at hiding and concealing thrmselves they're hard to spot because they're small so reducing the Perception roll instead of boosting the character's Concealment/Stealth rolls makes some sense even if functionally its largely the same thing. A really small character might be hard to spot even if they're not actually trying to hide and, IIRC, CE can force a roll. 

 

 I forget, are Negative Skill Levels a thing in 6th Edition? 

 

Size powers are always so problematic... 

[phoenix240]

It's a small profession.

 

I'm not sure why it came up though. 

[IndianaJoe3]

I guess it could work. It complicates things quite a bit. But it does make sense from a certain perspective. The character isn't necessarily skilled at hiding and concealing thrmselves they're hard to spot because they're small so reducing the Perception roll instead of boosting the character's Concealment/Stealth rolls makes some sense even if functionally its largely the same thing. A really small character might be hard to spot even if they're not actually trying to hide and, IIRC, CE can force a roll. 

 

 I forget, are Negative Skill Levels a thing in 6th Edition? 

 

Negative Skill Levels have been rolled into Change Environment.

 

I do see the complexity problem that everyone else is. Change Environment has traditionally operated like an attack, not a passive defense.

[phoenix240]

Negative Skill Levels have been rolled into Change Environment.

 

I do see the complexity problem that everyone else is. Change Environment has traditionally operated like an attack, not a passive defense.

 

Thanks

[Vondy]

I'm not sure why it came up though. 

 

I was at the bar.

[Wardsman]

This my suggestion.

https://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?776862-Hero-System-Champions-How-s-it-current-health&p=20090809#post20090809

[ghost-angel]

This my suggestion.

https://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?776862-Hero-System-Champions-How-s-it-current-health&p=20090809#post20090809

 

Um... 5th Edition did not come out 'rathery quickly after 4th' - there was over a decade between the two editions, and a failed reboot system with a Fuzion attempt in between those two.

And there was about 7-8 years between 5th and 6th IIRC.

 

These are not exactly quick edition turn arounds. In fact, the distance between 5th and 4th is about the same as the distance between AD&D2E and D&D3E.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Yeah there was a long time between 4th and 5th, in fact Hero looked dead as a company, then they put out a competitor to Champions that enraged fans.  It looked like Hero Games was over with.  And Steve Long stepped in and took up the reins.

[Tholomyes]

As for who 6e appeals to, I'd have to say the removal of Figured Characteristics, the standardization of distances in meters, instead of inches or hexes, and various changes like that did a ton, in my mind, to give the game a more contemporary feel and seem intuitive for people new to the system. I'd played a bit of 5e, after picking up a used copy of the 5er book, but a lot of the design decisions seemed like relics of an older paradigm. Not all those relics were changed, I'll admit, in 6e, since much of the core of the game remained the same, but on the whole it felt like a step foreward. And in a system like HERO (and unlike other games, such as D&D for example, where a new edition is basically a new system with a handful of familiar trappings), is about all you can ask of with a new edition, besides certain cost readjustments and reworking of certain mechanics (which 6e also did).

 

As for the size of 5e (and 6e as well, given that it's essentially larger, split into two books), I never saw the issue. There are some games which can do a single condensed book and have that work well, but for most games, in my experience, the single condensed (or condensed-ish) book design leaves for a game which feels incomplete until a few source-books are released. When comparing a large-but-complete book vs core-book-plus-enough-source-books-to-feel-complete the former is much more appealing. Furthermore, when source-books do come out, it makes me feel like I'm buying something worthwhile, rather than plopping down money for the remainder of an incomplete system. And ignoring that, there are Champions and Fantasy Hero complete, which come in at smaller than the most recent D&D handbook, and (while missing a few things from the core rulebook) feel more complete than that system.

 

As for the settings, I don't think you're going to appeal to players who like the freedom and flexibility of HERO with a premade setting, the same way that you can with D&D. Having a setting is perhaps a nice bonus (of note, in the case of Champions, the MMO's existence provides the opportunity for cross-promotion, though I don't know how big a factor that is), but setting books have never been high on my list of purchases. As well, I think it would be doing the system a disservice to remove the customization factor. In order to do the system justice with a list of prebuilt spells and abilities, you'd solve the complexity issue of building powers, but run into the complexity issues that face games like D&D with huge lists of feats and spells and the like, and you don't get the upside of the strengths of a truly flexible Point-Buy system like HERO.

[Wardsman]

Um... 5th Edition did not come out 'rathery quickly after 4th' - there was over a decade between the two editions, and a failed reboot system with a Fuzion attempt in between those two.

And there was about 7-8 years between 5th and 6th IIRC.

 

These are not exactly quick edition turn arounds. In fact, the distance between 5th and 4th is about the same as the distance between AD&D2E and D&D3E.

Time blurs . Hell I forgot about 3rd edition.

But what did think of my suggestion for a newbie friendly spin

[Wardsman]

  . . . .

 

As for the size of 5e (and 6e as well, given that it's essentially larger, split into two books), I never saw the issue. There are some games which can do a single condensed book and have that work well, but for most games, in my experience, the single condensed (or condensed-ish) book design leaves for a game which feels incomplete until a few source-books are released. When comparing a large-but-complete book vs core-book-plus-enough-source-books-to-feel-complete the former is much more appealing. Furthermore, when source-books do come out, it makes me feel like I'm buying something worthwhile, rather than plopping down money for the remainder of an incomplete system. And ignoring that, there are Champions and Fantasy Hero complete, which come in at smaller than the most recent D&D handbook, and (while missing a few things from the core rulebook) feel more complete than that system.

 

As for the settings, I don't think you're going to appeal to players who like the freedom and flexibility of HERO with a premade setting, the same way that you can with D&D. Having a setting is perhaps a nice bonus (of note, in the case of Champions, the MMO's existence provides the opportunity for cross-promotion, though I don't know how big a factor that is), but setting books have never been high on my list of purchases. As well, I think it would be doing the system a disservice to remove the customization factor. In order to do the system justice with a list of prebuilt spells and abilities, you'd solve the complexity issue of building powers, but run into the complexity issues that face games like D&D with huge lists of feats and spells and the like, and you don't get the upside of the strengths of a truly flexible Point-Buy system like HERO.

 

 

You need both. You need new players coming in! And a predigested version with a ready made powerset with everything you need to run the game is what you need. Sure you have breadcrumbs that show how the system can do more but you let them get comfortable first.

 

Tula Morn came close to that in execution. It just needed some evocative artwork to draw the eye

 

I never said remove customization but Hero as presented now creates a Paralysis of Choice

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Paradox_of_Choice

 

It is why successful restaurants have smaller menus. It is a current problem with a few fast food chains at the moment.

 

What you need is begginers box or book with a compelling setting and evocative writing and artwork that makes them want to play that setting. And in side bars or in an appendix you state that this was powered by Hero System which let you do so much more if you choose. And here how you build your own stuff.But they don't have dive in the deep end to play.

 

What you will get is a pool of regular RPG players and a few proto gamemasters who will take the next step and dive in. Hell if players like it enough they will rope the geeky friends to explore the deeper system. That is how D&D grew.

[eepjr24]

You need both. You need new players coming in! And a predigested version with a ready made powerset with everything you need to run the game is what you need. Sure you have breadcrumbs that show how the system can do more but you let them get comfortable first.

 

Tula Morn came close to that in execution. It just needed some evocative artwork to draw the eye

 

I never said remove customization but Hero as presented now creates a Paralysis of Choice

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Paradox_of_Choice

 

It is why successful restaurants have smaller menus. It is a current problem with a few fast food chains at the moment.

 

What you need is begginers box or book with a compelling setting and evocative writing and artwork that makes them want to play that setting. And in side bars or in an appendix you state that this was powered by Hero System which let you do so much more if you choose. And here how you build your own stuff.But they don't have dive in the deep end to play.

 

What you will get is a pool of regular RPG players and a few proto gamemasters who will take the next step and dive in. Hell if players like it enough they will rope the geeky friends to explore the deeper system. That is how D&D grew.

 

Obviously opinions will vary on the paradox of choice, as it is not fact but opinion itself, with some supporting evidence and some contrary. Personally, I think it has some merit and inflates some of the impacts.

 

Successful like Cheescake Factory? Or Olive Garden? <shrug> Menu size like RPG flexibility versus simplicity is a fad that comes and goes.

 

I don't disagree that setting books with pre-constructed powers and location details are awesome but they are also more targeted and thus much more difficult to market to larger audiences. Trade-offs in everything.

 

- E