Discussion of Hero System's "Health" on rpg.net

[steriaca]

Then apperantly it is not working, because I don't see an adventure or minor supplement per month directly from Hero Games. It is hard to have confidence in Hero if the management is invisible, and we are forced to turn to third parties for support.

[Cantriped]

The assertion that Hero Games put out one product per month was stated in the past tense. Hero Games has been on life-support for some time now; at this point they can't afford to publish anything new unless it is pre-funded by a Kickstarter Campaign. However, they do make some money from the sales of 3rd party products here in the Store. So if we all published and bought enough 3rd party products, it would help revitalize Hero Games (or at least keep them afloat for a while longer).

[Christopher R Taylor]

Hero could put out new products but is not.  Would they need kickstarter support?  Sure!  But they aren't even trying that.  For all intents and purposes Hero Games is just dead, its only third party stuff being done.  Even projects like the "complete" books were third party written for Hero and pushed by them instead of the company, from what I understand.  A business that does no business is just not around any longer.  I don't mind building products and pushing and promoting but I really wish they'd try a little bit to promote their own company.

[steriaca]

Feeling the same Christopher. Your a business, right Hero Games? Then we need products from Hero Games, not from 3rd party. If you can't put something out, sell it to a third party who can, will, and are interested in doing so.

[Doc Democracy]

You say that like you know there is someone out there with the money, vision and energy to do that....

[Cantriped]

As far as I know, Derek Hiemforth and Michael Surbrook wrote Champions and ​Fantasy Hero Complete for Hero Games just like Steven Long wrote any number of books for Hero Games before them. Who approached who about the project, and how it was funded is largely irrelevant; those documents were still 'produced and distributed' by Hero Games, which makes them first-party (not third-party).

Hero Games is still doing business, they operate the store through which I've purchased several third party products recently (such as Arron Allston's Strike Force), and they are making an effort to update their catalog with digital editions of documents which have been out of print for years (namely all those 4th edition books).

 

Otherwise I do agree that it would be nice to see them producing more new products, even if they have to use freelance authors and Kickstarter to do so. Honestly I don't like the idea of them selling the IP to another company (because I cannot imagine another company doing it justice), I would rather see it declared public domain than see a company like Wizards of the Coast or Paizo purchase it just so they can bastardize it. 

[Nolgroth]

Nolgroth I know for myself that it's a small thing but since I have a decent job, I can buy more from the Hero store.

 

Small steps matter. I am pessimistic but not nihilistic. What Hero Games needs to figure out, if it even possible at this point, is how to get other people spending money. My own funds are tight right now, but I got my eye on the Hero System 4th Edition PDF. Why? Because nostalgia, that's why!

 

In a couple of months, I will have gotten over my financial hill and can look seriously at what I can spend my money on that isn't essential expenses. Then I can dump a little of the DI into catching up on a few things that I wish I had. Edit: And Champions the New Millennium PDFs are there too! Damn being broke.

[Cantriped]

I've got Two Kings Keep, Tuala Morn and Acquitaine on my wishlist right now (as well as a bunch of 5th edition supplements for Fantasy Hero which I'm considering getting because the print copies are so inexpensive now). Eventually I also plan on purchasing 2nd copies of ​Champions and Fantasy Hero Complete​ to stash away for when I've worn out my primary copies (I use them almost every day, so they are starting to get worn even though I treat my books as well as possible).

[steriaca]

You say that like you know there is someone out there with the money, vision and energy to do that....

Ah, those are just wishes from a pore, broke​ and broken rpger who no longer has any steady time to roleplay, let alone people to roleplay with. My first game was Marvel Superheroes, but my second was Champions, and I still love the pore, sick sad sack.

[Ninja-Bear]

Next on my list is getting Hero Designer -again. When my computer crashed well it took everything with it! The odd thing was, physically my kids beat the laptop to death. It had a broken hinge and separating at the seams but programming broke it.

[Ninja-Bear]

Btw if an Official Champions universe is what is needed to reboot everything, I stand behind it!

[Nolgroth]

Well Champions is only one of the possibilities and the most likely. The system heralds back to supers in all of its underlying structure and the common assumption in the gaming world is that Hero System == Champions. I don't know that a new universe is needed. Hero has access to Champions already. It also has the largest support library of any of the Hero lines. I am not enamored with the changes that Cryptic brought to the Champions IP, but if that is the current official setting, then I am okay with it. The important part is that there is continued support.

 

At this point, I long for the days of Road Kill, Demons Rule and Invaders from Below. None would (or should) win any awards, but at least they were a sign that Hero Games was breathing back then. I'm not even Champions fan. If we had more stuff like that, even if it were PDF only with permission to print for personal use (Print On Demand), I think we might be on to something. Flesh out that Champions line. Heck, go back to Cryptic/PW and see if some of the Champions Online plots can be adapted to the pen 'n' paper version. Not sure what the license allows and precludes. Seemed a no-brainer to me at the time, but I thought that was going to be what happened.

[Doc Democracy]

Ah, those are just wishes from a pore, broke​ and broken rpger who no longer has any steady time to roleplay, let alone people to roleplay with. My first game was Marvel Superheroes, but my second was Champions, and I still love the pore, sick sad sack.

The great thing about RPGs and the thing that makes them such a difficult business is that no one can take the rules you have away from you. If HERO vanished today, never to return, everything they did still exists, everything we need to play the game exists. An RPG company has to continually make itself necessary and the older it is the more difficult that becomes, their back catalogue is their biggest competition. I think that is doubly true in HEROs case...

 

Doc

[Ninja-Bear]

My concern though about an "official" universe is that the more the company fleshes it out, the harder it is to put your stamp on it. Back in the olden days though, it seemed as if the supplements were more optional choice.

[phoenix240]

I don't use and I've never used the official Champions Universe for anything other than inspiration and borrowing for characters, groups, etc, piecemeal that I liked. Its been the DiY aspect of Hero System that kept me attracted to it. So I suppose I'm par of the "dead weight" that must be shed for the game to soar. So be it, I guess. My books aren't going to evaporate. 

[Nolgroth]

I don't use and I've never used the official Champions Universe for anything other than inspiration and borrowing for characters, groups, etc, piecemeal that I liked. Its been the DiY aspect of Hero System that kept me attracted to it. So I suppose I'm par of the "dead weight" that must be shed for the game to soar. So be it, I guess. My books aren't going to evaporate. 

 

It doesn't have to be an "all or nothing" scenario. For example, I bought every book that TSR released for the first edition of Forgotten Realms, yet my Forgotten Realms looked almost nothing like the "official" one. It certainly never looked like the fantasy superhero setting it became later. Like you, I used the "official" materials for things like maps, characters and the odd story idea. I see no reason why the existence of an "official" setting precludes having ones own interpretation. As I joked above, it's a common trope in comic books to have multiple alternate realities. Worse case, just imagine yours as Champions 99 or something. That way you get the best of both worlds.

[steriaca]

Yes, UMMV and IYG (Your Milage May Vary, and It's Your Game). We been Crisis On Earth X√π before Marvel ever did, but DC beets us to the punch every time.

[Spence]

Not dead weight. It is just we need to recognize that we, the long time Herophiles, are not the target. We already know. But we need to bring in new blood that has different concepts of what is needed.

They tend to play in the predesigned settings and play predesigned campaigns first. Then a few actually create their own.

We, Herodom, have clung to 1980/90s concepts into the 2010s. All of the current rpg leaders are repeatedly demonstrating predesigned campaigns (not modules) sell. From D&D to Star Wars.

And even though I personally don't care, they also have proven snazy art is a make or break item for people now. B&W art and text gathers dust. Snazy color moves. Even crappy rpgs as long as they are snazzy somehow. FATE may have a B&W interior, but the cover is hardback and snazzy.

Oops. Note I do not think FATE is crappy even if it sounded that way.

[Spence]

My concern though about an "official" universe is that the more the company fleshes it out, the harder it is to put your stamp on it. Back in the olden days though, it seemed as if the supplements were more optional choice.

Then do it like current D&D. The setting books are broad stroke. Even when they added Sword Coast they didn't hammer too much detail.

 

Each of their campaigns are careful to focus on the campaign in a way it can be ignored entirely.

 

A supers campaign for a young/new team does not have to blow up Millennium City nor involve the Champions and Dr Destroyer.

 

Grab in Vibora Bay is fine.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Sure, pre-created settings for people to easily jump into and use are a good idea for sales.  I think at least one official Champions campaign setting with rules and scenarios to jump right into and run is critical (as I said above) but more than one is even better: a golden age one, a gritty iron age one, a more Wild Cards/Marvel Cinematic one without costumes, names, etc.  Those kind of options would appeal to people.

[phoenix240]

It doesn't have to be an "all or nothing" scenario. For example, I bought every book that TSR released for the first edition of Forgotten Realms, yet my Forgotten Realms looked almost nothing like the "official" one. It certainly never looked like the fantasy superhero setting it became later. Like you, I used the "official" materials for things like maps, characters and the odd story idea. I see no reason why the existence of an "official" setting precludes having ones own interpretation. As I joked above, it's a common trope in comic books to have multiple alternate realities. Worse case, just imagine yours as Champions 99 or something. That way you get the best of both worlds.

 

Of course you can mine for ideas. I do it now but I like to create my own worlds for the most part. I don't need "campaign" books and typically don't buy them. There have been two settings I've used enough of that they'd be recognizable in 30+ yrs of gaming and they're pretty heavily modified and in hindsight I think it would have worked out better if I'd just homebrewed using the same basic premise. I liked the Champions approach as it felt more modular than other games. Nothing was set or must buy. I don't have any desire to have my game resemble any official setting; just don't see the appeal. Especially if there is some company driven metaplot. 

 

Its not my cuppa but its also not my IP and like I said, my books aren't going to burst into flames so 'Hero Games' (in whatever form it takes) can do as they wish. 

[phoenix240]

Not dead weight. It is just we need to recognize that we, the long time Herophiles, are not the target. We already know. But we need to bring in new blood that has different concepts of what is needed.

 

They tend to play in the predesigned settings and play predesigned campsigns first. Then a few actually create their own.

 

We, Herodom, have clung to 1980/90s concepts into the 2010s. All of the current rpg leaders are repeatedly demonstrating predesigned campaigns (not modules) sell. From D&D to Star Wars.

 

And even though I personally don't care, they also have proven snazy art is a make or break item for people now. B&W art and text gathers dust. Snazy color moves. Even crappy rpgs as long as they are snazzy somehow. FATE may have a B&W interior, but the cover is hardback and snazzy.

 

Oops. Note I do not think FATE is crappy even if it sounded that way.

 

So not "dead weight" just outdated and anachronistic. I feel better now.  

 

If Hero games start making a slew of modules, campaign books, etc, that's up to them. It won't get any of my money. That's not anger just not going to spend money on products that don't interest me.O started with Hero System/Champions to get away from that sort of thing and fell a few times for stylish but utterly crappy games. But maybe such a change will bring in hordes of new customers to make up for me. I dunno. but I do fear the superhero market might be too glutted at this point. 

[Spence]

So not "dead weight" just outdated and anachronistic. I feel better now.

 

I prefer Old Codger or Curmudgeon myself

 

If Hero games start making a slew of modules, campaign books, etc, that's up to them. It won't get any of my money. That's not anger just not going to spend money on products that don't interest me.O started with Hero System/Champions to get away from that sort of thing and fell a few times for stylish but utterly crappy games. But maybe such a change will bring in hordes of new customers to make up for me. I dunno. but I do fear the superhero market might be too glutted at this point. 

 

 

I, for one, am not talking about a “slew” of anything, especially modules.  But a healthy injection of a few campaigns would be great.    One thing I have noticed, at least I think I have, is that everytime a discussion of a campaign comes up, the old guard immediately leaps (or crawls) to the conclusion it must be “new” stuff.   I am not excluded from this, I start off with an idea and then seem to fall right into line.

 

No what I am talking about is a campaign based on the existing setting designed for new Hero players.  So for Champions, pick a city.  I prefer Hudson City for all of my games because it is not only a very very well developed rpg city, but there is actually a real map available at high enough resolution to zoom down to the street in question, snag an image and print without pixilation.  And GASP! It actually has street names.  All the other Hero cities require me to add each and every street as needed and compound the issue because the few maps they do have are low res and pixelate as soon as you zoom in. 

 

Anyway back to the topic.

 

Take a Hero city, I’d pick Hudson City but it coiuld be any of them.  I’d lean to not-Millennium City just so new players/GM’s don’t need to bother with the CU’s big sticks.

 

Take a small villain group and a couple of other similar power level villains.  I’d use the team GRAB as the none violent thieves and add some other villains and the dangerous ones.  Yes, these villains are in other Champions products.  But this is intended to teach how to play superheroes in the Champions Universe.  I’d make a younger version of GRAB for this campaign, one presenting them as younger and in the beginning of their time as GRAB. The same with the other villains.  I'd end it with the Hero's capturing the evil villains but with GRAB escaping.  This sets up GRAB as arch-foes, the one that got away.  Classic superhero, victory over the deadly villains tempered by the escape of the thieves.

 

The beginning of the campaign book can cover the campaign ground rules being used in this campaign. Maybe even a bit of explanation as to why the choices were made for this campaign.

 

Reference NPC’s, companies, precincts and other entities mentioned in the setting supplement the adventure is based in.  Provide all and complete details (except the rules part such as Champions complete) to run the campaign, but reference everything back to the correct book.   This is why it needs to be an official campaign so it can actually use information from the existing universe and not be forced to create “new” personalities. 

 

In the end, the book should be designed so Bob who lives on the far side of the moon with his 4 friends and no internet can pick it up and a copy of the rulebook and run the complete campaign even if this is the first RPG he ever saw. 

 

But this does not have to be just Supers.  Pick one of the Fantasy settings and create a campaign. 

 

Every one of the currently successful RPG’s offers at least one starting campaign.  Everyone of the GM’s I know owns at least the first one.  Even if they are among the micro-minority of GMs that actually do only run their own campaigns, they still have it on their shelf.  Why?  It provided a measuring stick of what all the points/levels/power settings/etc actually look like when they are actually applied to a game. 

 

In my opionon, one of Hero’s greatest strengths is also its biggest issue.  It’s is what I consider the most flexible and developed universal tabletop RPG in existence.  But if I were to hand you a complete disassembled car in boxes and all the tools needed, most of us could not build the car and get it on the road.  Especially is we had never seen a car before. 

 

“Here is some stuff and tools! Now build it!”

 

“What?  How dare you ask me what “it” is!”

 

[Christopher R Taylor]

Nah, just a real clear presentation of a campaign for GMs to pick up and use easily, a couple of nice intro adventures, and I would suggest at least one campaign storyline the GM can follow for a story arc, several adventures tied together to create a single tale.  The settings are pretty well established with the Champions Universe and city books, there just needs to be something specifically turning it into a Champions Campaign instead of a setting.

[phoenix240]

As I said, its not material I need or want so I won't be buying it. Ir it brings new players, great. I'm dubious about that but hey, if someone want to put up the money and time more power to them.