Discussion of Hero System's "Health" on rpg.net

[Doc Democracy]

The key thing I think a good campaign would/should do, is provide an alternative to experience = greater power. Traditional fantasy zero to hero style campaign is not really a superhero trope. It would be nice if something was built into the campaign to provide players with that sense of advancement that was not reliant on getting a broader range of defences or an extra 2d6 damage.

 

Doc

[Spence]

Personally, I think Champions needs more modules at this point. There has to be a fine balancing act between providing new rules, new campaigns, and updating the current campaign source. And when I mean updating the campaign source, I don't just mean making the characters valid with the current rules. Modules should be created which are in the campaign universe which will spur new games with dangling plot threads and introduce new NPCs. I think Pathfinder does this really well with the adventure paths and the Pathfinder Society.

You almost lost me until you mentioned "Like adventure paths". Modules to me are the infinite line of various ine shots out there which I differentiate from actual campaigns. I'd love to see a real starting campaign designed around starting point heroes against a super powered crime lord. A starting campign introducing that universe but NOT involving the big sticks. No Champions. No Mechenon. No Dr. Destroyer. Those characters should be reserved for truely epic campaigns down the line when the PCs have reached comparable pointage.

 

The majority of comics that stuck with me developed their heros through smaller storylines long before they saved the universe.

 

Each victory should reveal a deeper conspiracy/threat. It shouldn't lead with the ultimate climax.

[bigdamnhero]

Every GM I know pontificates on how pre-made campaigns suck and the custom campaign is the only way to go.  And then they sit down and run the latest D&D/Pathfinder/13th Age published campaign because they do not have time to build one. 

Well then you don't know me, or any of the other GMs on this forum who are always going on about the custom campaigns we're running....

 

But again I recognize I'm not the majority of gamers, and I agree for most people good campaign material that you can run without a ton of prep is a big draw. The Savage Worlds Plot Point campaign model you mentioned is a good one IMO, because it gives you the outline of a campaign while still leaving room to customize things for the individual PCs. I think it's the main reason SW sells so well.

 

(Personally I find the quality of SW's Plot Point campaigns varies pretty widely, and I tend to re-write the hell out of them until they're barely recognizable anyway - but again, that's me. I'm a writer first and foremost.)

[IndianaJoe3]

I can easily see modules built around story arcs. The trick is to make them feel like a comic book series.

[Nolgroth]

There are, to my knowledge, no modules or campaigns that can be run without some sort of customization on the GM's part. Modules and adventures are written with a certain assumption set and not all gaming groups share those assumptions. Nobody knows the players or characters involved better than the GM on the scene. What modules and campaigns can provide in spades are; 1) Inspiration and 2) Prefabricated maps, gaming stats, etc. to quicken the pace from "I'm organizing a game/campaign" to "I'm running a game/campaign" all the way to "Wow! That was a great game/campaign."

[phoenix240]

I was under the impression that one of the reasons their weren't many modules/adventures/campaign guides/etc was that, in general, they didn't sell very well? 

[steriaca]

What Champions needs is something Hero doesn't have money for, first generation adventures set in the universe. Also, they need complete control of that universe, not having to go to whoever owns Champions Online each week and beg them for permission to write down "Menton sneezed, Foxbat takes a shower, Dr. Destroyer grabs some breakfast".

[Cantriped]

That was the excuse given, yes.

 

In general you'll sell between 1/4th and 1/6th as many modules as you will rulebooks. Because most everybody needs a rulebook if they play the system for any length of time, but only GMs buy modules. However I consider modules to be a loss-leader in the RPG industry. You sell modules to GMs, who run games using your system (which they might have otherwise run in another system), which results in more players playing your system and becoming interested enough in it to buy rulebooks. However, even as a loss-leader, the market for modules is such that you can easily charge 3 to 5 times as much per page for a module as the market will bear for rules supplements of similar length.

[Spence]

Well then you don't know me, or any of the other GMs on this forum who are always going on about the custom campaigns we're running....

 

 

Understood. I didn't re-address the understanding that the topic of getting Hero out to the rpg world at large carries the understanding that we are not including anyone that is actually a standing member of this board. If you frequent this forum you are not the target. Part of preaching to the choir.

 

But on the topic at hand, I haven't seen Hero in any guise at a con or game day except a game by Balabanto at Orcacon in 2015(?). But nothing else at all since mid90s.

[Spence]

I was under the impression that one of the reasons their weren't many modules/adventures/campaign guides/etc was that, in general, they didn't sell very well?

That is the conventional wisdom. But most of the current big rpgs are doing very well with them. The pathfinder line has 20+ and include figure stand ups and mao packs.

[Joe Walsh]

In general you'll sell between 1/4th and 1/6th as many modules as you will rulebooks. Because most everybody needs a rulebook if they play the system for any length of time, but only GMs buy modules. However I consider modules to be a loss-leader in the RPG industry. You sell modules to GMs, who run games using your system (which they might have otherwise run in another system), which results in more players playing your system and becoming interested enough in it to buy rulebooks. However, even as a loss-leader, the market for modules is such that you can easily charge 3 to 5 times as much per page for a module as the market will bear for rules supplements of similar length.

 

I've always seen them as a loss leader, too. Just something you need to have in order to keep your base happy and growing, despite the fact that they don't sell very well.

[steriaca]

Simply put, adventure modules say "We care". They keep the audience interested between Major Setting X and Major Gaming Supliment​ Y.

[bigdamnhero]

What Champions needs is something Hero doesn't have money for, first generation adventures set in the universe. Also, they need complete control of that universe, not having to go to whoever owns Champions Online each week and beg them for permission to write down "Menton sneezed, Foxbat takes a shower, Dr. Destroyer grabs some breakfast".

I've never heard that Hero/DOJ needs Cryptic's permission to put out new CU material; my understanding was they can more or less do whatever they want with the pen & paper stuff other than they can't license it to any other 3rd parties? AFAICT they've already put out material that contradicts or goes beyond what was done in the video game. (Champions Beyond for one thing; some of the Destroyer/Shadow Destroyer material in CV1?) So unless you've heard/seen something I haven't I'm not sure that's an issue.

 

However I consider modules to be a loss-leader in the RPG industry.

In general, sure. But my understanding was that for Hero Games specifically most of the modules/adventures they've published have been more loss, and less leader. Obviously I don't have access to any actual sales figures. I don't like it, but it's hard to blame them for not throwing good money after bad.

 

Understood. I didn't re-address the understanding that the topic of getting Hero out to the rpg world at large carries the understanding that we are not including anyone that is actually a standing member of this board. If you frequent this forum you are not the target. Part of preaching to the choir.

No worries. I probably should've inferred that on my own.

 

But on the topic at hand, I haven't seen Hero in any guise at a con or game day except a game by Balabanto at Orcacon in 2015(?). But nothing else at all since mid90s.

Are you talking about an official company presence? If the former, I thought they used to regularly have booths at GenCon and Dragoncon(?) at least through most of 5ed; AFAIK that stopped once 6ed didn't sell and the MMO money dried up.

 

Or do you just mean no one's running Hero games? I only go to my local (Denver) conventions, and I'm lucky that between me, the Ebil Bunneh, Surbrook, Oddhat and others there are always plenty of Hero games to play. Hero probably comes in right behind D&D, PF & Savage Worlds for largest number of games by system; at most Genghis Cons you could play a Hero game every slot if you were so inclined, and most are sold-out tables. But that's because several of us made a deliberate push to get more Hero games by running games and encouraging others to do so. I can't speak for the national conventions, but from friends who do go to GenCon and so forth it sounds like there's at least a few Hero games running?

 

 

I do think one place Hero/DOJ has really fallen down on has been their marketing. (What marketing, you say? My point exactly.) I understand they've never exactly been flushed with cash, but there are a lot of really low-cost things they could have done to get word out and maintain interest in the system. Even something as simple as putting out a set of convention-ready modules that prospective GMs could download for free in exchange for agreeing to run it at a con/game day. They used to have the Legion Of Heroes or whatever it was called, but they didn't ever seem to do much with it.

[Cantriped]

Modules serve several useful functions for consumers. They provide novice GMs with a mean of learning their role. They provide structure to GMs looking to build their own scenarios. They provide a fall-back for GMs who don't have the spare time necessary to build a scenario from scratch, or who need something to run as filler while they finish a homebrewed scenario.

In this modern age production costs for prewritten scenarios and campaigns have also dropped significantly. You no longer have to print thousands of copies of something you know may not sell well. Paizo can sell their PDFs for almost as much as print copies go for (especially the 'little' things like modules)

Many GMs have Laptops, Smartphones, or Tablets they can use to reference a PDF during play, and the few things that need to be printed (handouts, maps, etc) can be done at home or at local print shops on the GMs dime.

 

Personally, I think that ignoring the consumer's desire/need for prewritten scenarios is probably the biggest mistake Hero Games has made with 6th edition and beyond, and it might explain why they ran out of steam before they even finished the Core Line. Conversely, Paizo basically stole WotCs ruleset and most of their player base, and turned themselves from an obscure 3rd party publisher into a powerhouse in the industry thanks to the quality of their prewritten scenarios (modules) and campaigns (adventure paths). 

[phoenix240]

 

In general, sure. But my understanding was that for Hero Games specifically most of the modules/adventures they've published have been more loss, and less leader. Obviously I don't have access to any actual sales figures. I don't like it, but it's hard to blame them for not throwing good money after bad.

 

Nah, its the internet. Its pretty easy to do things like that here.

[DreadDomain]

Modules serve several useful functions for consumers. They provide novice GMs with a mean of learning their role. They provide structure to GMs looking to build their own scenarios. They provide a fall-back for GMs who don't have the spare time necessary to build a scenario from scratch, or who need something to run as filler while they finish a homebrewed scenario.

 

Scenarios are also best when they introduce new characters, vilains and organizations, describe locations, include equipment, widgets and MacGuffins. Unless it is very specific to the scenario, I am less keen when they add new rules but all of the other examples, might boost interest in the book for gm and players alike and provide hooks and leads for a longer term campaign.

 

4th had a few good supplements like that.

[Burrito Boy]

4th had a few good supplements like that.

Which ones specifically? I just got the 4th Edition bundles so I'd like to know what to look for.

[bigdamnhero]

Personally, I think that ignoring the consumer's desire/need for prewritten scenarios is probably the biggest mistake Hero Games has made with 6th edition and beyond, and it might explain why they ran out of steam before they even finished the Core Line.

I agree that failing to look at them as low-cost marketing material was a real wasted opportunity. But lack of modules was a thing all through the 5ed years too, not something new with 6ed. They pretty clearly had a strategy that Hero was a niche game that was never going to have broad appeal, so they focused on targeting their existing audience rather than trying to bring in new players. It worked for them for awhile - Hero averaged one new product every month for 7+ years - but we're seeing the long-term effects now.

 

Bottom line: what killed 6ed AFAICT was that the core rules textbooks undersold.

[steriaca]

If Hero is going to survive, they will need a 7th edition, and not only that, but a change of focus away from us to the next generation. The rules should be easy to understand for them, a complete entry level bracket with lots of the work done for them, and great adventures which can be played with as little setup as possible.

 

Remember that easy to understand doesn't mean simple.

[Cantriped]

CC/FHC are likely about as close to 7th edition as we're ever gonna get with Hero Games on life-support. However they do demonstrate that it's possible for the company to put out 1st party products using Kickstarter. Hopefully they'll draw some much needed capital from utilizing DriveThruRPG and getting older products up on the store in PDF format, and with any luck they'll consider investing in an advertising campaign of some sort. I would really love to see those rulesets receive some 1st party adventures/supplements of their own, considering they are the most recent 'edition' of the ruleset.

 

The issue with any discussion regarding a true 7th edition is that the hardcore consumer base is pretty evenly split on how they want to see it done; some people agree with you, and others consider your suggestion absolute heresy. The prospect of putting out a product that half of your already miniscule consumer base doesn't want is a lose-lose situation for Hero Games. It is worth noting that if Hero Games finally goes under, somebody is likely to buy the rights to the Hero System (assuming they don't declare it public domain first). If that happens all we can hope is that the new owners do the IP justice (and don't just buy it to eliminate the competition).

[Ninja-Bear]

Seriously not seeing how a new edition is really going to fix things. What issues need addressing? Yes 6th was huge and expensive but now we have Champions Complete. Not Hugh nor expensive.

[Nolgroth]

I think the term "life support" is a good one for the state of Hero Games right now. A lot of us remember a similar time before DoJ. Not saying that Hero Games is going to pull through, but it has beat the odds in the past. I really wish that a setting based around the New Millennium version of Champions had been developed; even as an aside. I can connect with that setting more than the classic Champions or the Cryptic Champions settings. Heh. At this rate, we can start numbering them like Marvel and DC. Champions Earth #77, Bigdamnhero's Champions setting. Anyway, I have a whole list of "I wishes" that amount to nothing more than dust motes on moonbeams. 

 

I have a bunch of ideas, just like you guys do. The problem is that we seem to be having this discussion and Hero Games is not. Maybe they did and life support is all that they can muster. Even if we put together some amazing fan products, I'm not sure that will be enough to jump start the Hero franchise. Part of the problem is that the principals have withdrawn from the playing field. Some feedback as to what they want/need to do and what they want/need from us would be nice. Maybe, perish the thought, they are content with letting the Hero System fade into obscurity. Be a damn shame if that is its eventual fate, but we can only do so much if there is not a concerted effort from Hero Games to drive forward with any sort of revival.

 

I think that is why my pessimism is so strong.

[Ninja-Bear]

Nolgroth I know for myself that it's a small thing but since I have a decent job, I can buy more from the Hero store.

[steriaca]

Seriously not seeing how a new edition is really going to fix things. What issues need addressing? Yes 6th was huge and expensive but now we have Champions Complete. Not Hugh nor expensive.

The issue is "newcomer friendly".

 

Edit: What I mean is that it would be great if we had something which newcomers could easily pick up, read, and understand. The "Complete" line is a step in the right direction, but I fear it might not be enough. An all new edition, even if the "7th edition" is basically "6th edition with another name" would be another step in the right direction. The idea is "we are pretending to drop all the baggage of the old edition, so forget all the negative things you herd about the Hero System and pick this up and try it please".

[Cantriped]

That was basically Champions Complete in a nutshell.

They changed the name to harken back to earlier (some say happier) times, cut all the excessive examples and corner case explanations (dropping the page count drastically), went back to a format similar to earlier editions, and made a slew of exceedingly minor revisions (such as removing the concept of Classes of Minds as a default assumption, and imploding the majority of the categorized skills). CC/FHC claimed to be 6th edition only to maintain the illusion that you can use all of the 6th edition supplement (and therefore hopefully encourage you to buy them), but the fact is they aren't totally backwards compatible; they are more like Hero System 6.5 edition.