womble Posted November 23, 2016 Report Share Posted November 23, 2016 Anybody else noticed the Trump volte-face on the Alt-Right? It was reported on the Beeb (as far as I can remember; the article appears to have vanished in favour of one about his business ties, which refers to him doing the disowning, but doesn't quote him on it) as him disowning and repudiating their views. In that article, though, he defends Brietbart as "just a publication". Seems like a good move, politically, along with his u-turn on prosecuting Hilary. Too little, too late, though? Guilty of stoking hatred to get what he wanted, whatever the consequences? Edit: The Beeb were mostly rehashing this interview with the NYT: http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/22/us/politics/donald-trump-visit.html?action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=b-lede-package-region®ion=top-news&WT.nav=top-news&hp&_r=1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
csyphrett Posted November 23, 2016 Report Share Posted November 23, 2016 Anybody else noticed the Trump volte-face on the Alt-Right? It was reported on the Beeb (as far as I can remember; the article appears to have vanished in favour of one about his business ties, which refers to him doing the disowning, but doesn't quote him on it) as him disowning and repudiating their views. In that article, though, he defends Brietbart as "just a publication". Seems like a good move, politically, along with his u-turn on prosecuting Hilary. Too little, too late, though? Guilty of stoking hatred to get what he wanted, whatever the consequences? Edit: The Beeb were mostly rehashing this interview with the NYT: http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/22/us/politics/donald-trump-visit.html?action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=b-lede-package-region®ion=top-news&WT.nav=top-news&hp&_r=1 i also saw that he was walking back his stand in the USA Today. The AGNY will not let his foundation thing go. There is a possible audit in the future CES Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megaplayboy Posted November 23, 2016 Report Share Posted November 23, 2016 He's going to have to make a speech. The same way Obama made a speech on race. Leave zero ambiguity and give zero encouragement to white supremacist groups and their ilk. Praise diversity and the contributions of immigrants and people of color. Condemn white nationalists as what they really are. Make clear that is not what he means by making America great again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
薔薇語 Posted November 23, 2016 Report Share Posted November 23, 2016 In a far-ranging interview with the New York Times, the US president-elect was quoted as saying: "I condemn them. I disavow, and I condemn." http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-38069469 Soar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megaplayboy Posted November 23, 2016 Report Share Posted November 23, 2016 It's not enough. Not nearly enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
薔薇語 Posted November 23, 2016 Report Share Posted November 23, 2016 Of course not. It never is and never will be. The issue is just whose problem that is. Soar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megaplayboy Posted November 23, 2016 Report Share Posted November 23, 2016 No, I'm giving him sound political advice. This will continue to dog him for the next four years unless and until he makes a definitive and lengthy public stand against them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DasBroot Posted November 23, 2016 Report Share Posted November 23, 2016 No, I'm giving him sound political advice. This will continue to dog him for the next four years unless and until he makes a definitive and lengthy public stand against them. it is sound advice but he defies all sound advice. He was immune to backlash during the election. Why wouldn't he be as President? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
薔薇語 Posted November 23, 2016 Report Share Posted November 23, 2016 And if he did it tomorrow, you and other would still accuse him of the same things and beat on the same same dead horse. Soar. Burrito Boy 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megaplayboy Posted November 23, 2016 Report Share Posted November 23, 2016 And if he did it tomorrow, you and other would still accuse him of the same things and beat on the same same dead horse. Soar. But he'd get a pass in the media(boldly praised, more likely), and a lot of people of color would feel some reassurance. There's nothing but upside for him to do so. Zero downside risk, AFAICT. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BoloOfEarth Posted November 23, 2016 Report Share Posted November 23, 2016 An older man and his adult son had vastly different political views, always arguing over actions by either major political party. In frustration, the son said, "Dad, if Satan was running on the Republican ticket, and Jesus was running on the Democratic ticket, you still wouldn't vote Democrat, would you?" The dad responded, "Why would they switch parties now?" (cue canned laugh track) The fact of the matter is that many on each side think their person can do no wrong, and the other side's person can do no right. (Note that I said "many". There are moderate supporters on either side.) That said, I agree with mega that Trump needs to get in front of this issue. Not respond to it in interviews, which are reactive, though that's a good start. But in a speech or press conference, which is proactive. If he truly wants to be (or at least be seen as) the person uniting the country, to be a leader, he needs to be seen to lead. Act, not react. Prove his detractors wrong. Pariah and 薔薇語 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
薔薇語 Posted November 23, 2016 Report Share Posted November 23, 2016 Yeah, and nothing but upside for President Obama to release his birth certificate. Don't get me wrong, Mega. I get your position. I was on here 8 years ago wanting the birther BS to go away thinking, just like you in this case, that President Obama could only win from just showing his birth certificate. Guess what! He didn't win. There was no upside. People who want to see bad will see bad. The goal posts will continue to move. We have his statement of condemnation. This is in conjunction with his 60 minutes point of not harassing people. It will never be enough. So rather than placate people who won't be satisfied, move on. Soar. Burrito Boy 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
薔薇語 Posted November 23, 2016 Report Share Posted November 23, 2016 An older man and his adult son had vastly different political views, always arguing over actions by either major political party. In frustration, the son said, "Dad, if Satan was running on the Republican ticket, and Jesus was running on the Democratic ticket, you still wouldn't vote Democrat, would you?" The dad responded, "Why would they switch parties now?" (cue canned laugh track) The fact of the matter is that many on each side think their person can do no wrong, and the other side's person can do no right. (Note that I said "many". There are moderate supporters on either side.) That said, I agree with mega that Trump needs to get in front of this issue. Not respond to it in interviews, which are reactive, though that's a good start. But in a speech or press conference, which is proactive. If he truly wants to be (or at least be seen as) the person uniting the country, to be a leader, he needs to be seen to lead. Act, not react. Prove his detractors wrong. If President Elect Trump did such a thing - gave a grand speech***, it would make me happy. I would be a tiny bit more proud of the man. I just think that doing so to please people who will never be pleased is pointless. Soar. ***Just giving a "grand" speech on anything might be worth the money to see it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megaplayboy Posted November 23, 2016 Report Share Posted November 23, 2016 You just equated not being able to satisfy racists who asserted that the first black president wasn't even American with people concerned that Trump's racially charged campaign rhetoric has empowered real racists and white supremacists who are capable of violence and intimidation against people of color. A much larger percentage of the public believe that Trump is racist than believed that Obama wasn't a citizen. It's more than worth his while to firmly address this. A few short statements here and there are not nearly enough. Obama had to give a major speech distancing himself from Rev.Wright. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
薔薇語 Posted November 23, 2016 Report Share Posted November 23, 2016 People who believe that President Elect Trump is supporting these Neo-Nazi's can see him denounce harassment and condemn the group. But no amount of evidence will convince people otherwise. Ultimately, we have to recognize that large swaths of people are willfully ignorant. People who believe Pres. Bush brought down the towers, people who believe we never went to the moon, people who believe any number of things that they feel they have "evidence" for and refuse to find counter-evidence for. Well, we have it. On TV and in a NYTimes article both with the same conclusion. Whether people choose to accept that message is up to them. But alas, the goal posts will always move. Soar. Burrito Boy 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
薔薇語 Posted November 23, 2016 Report Share Posted November 23, 2016 Obama had to give a major speech distancing himself from Rev.Wright. Did it help? Nope. Not a single person concerned about that issue had their opinions change. Soar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megaplayboy Posted November 23, 2016 Report Share Posted November 23, 2016 Did it help? Nope. Not a single person concerned about that issue had their opinions change. Soar. Actually, the speech was widely praised. It probably saved his presidential campaign, since he was still in a tight presidential primary campaign at the time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
薔薇語 Posted November 23, 2016 Report Share Posted November 23, 2016 Praised by people who didn't get a hoot about the issue to begin with. What person honestly clamoring for such a speech found their opinions changed? None. It was one of many of President Obama's concessions to the loonies. Of course that doesn't mean it and many other speeches he gave weren't good. But he didn't convince anyone to change their mind on that issue. Soar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
薔薇語 Posted November 23, 2016 Report Share Posted November 23, 2016 Also, the two issues aren't completely comparable. Prior to the speech, I don't think he ever gave as clear a statement as President Elect Trump has about White Supremacists and others. I could be mis-remembering but I think there was just the general wishy-washy statements prior. Soar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megaplayboy Posted November 23, 2016 Report Share Posted November 23, 2016 Trump has made a grand total, to my knowledge, of 4 statements disavowing or distancing himself from the white supremacists. The one re duke and the kkk, which he initially botched. The one re hate crime activity, which was essentially a two word response. A press release from the campaign in response to the alt right conference. And private comments in a meeting with the NYT staff. That's underwhelming. His most inflammatory statements have been made before huge rallies and with wide tv coverage. His Phoenix speech on immigration, if you read the transcript, was particularly inflammatory. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
薔薇語 Posted November 23, 2016 Report Share Posted November 23, 2016 But here is the thing, Mega, you have found four examples of him disavowing such groups. I personally knew of the two recent ones off the top of my head. You can now choose to accept him at his word here or hold him to his past statements. You are choosing the latter. Tomorrow he could give a speech summed up as "white suprimicists are bad. Don't hurt minorities". Then following that speech you would be faced with the same choice you have today. His past statements wouldn't have changed and his speech tomorrow wouldn't have deviated from his current rebuking. So, you would in essence have the same amount of information. Are we to magically accept you will change your opinion? I think not. There will always be a way to move the goal posts. "He didn't really mean it!""He phrased X too loosely so it means he really just hates minorities""He didn't do it early enough, so even if he isn't supporting them (which he still is!) he is still responsible for them!" "Y person connected to the campaign (but not actually connected) gave a secret Nazi handshake to signal President Elect Trump didn't really mean it.""Yeah, but these people are still out there so he needs to keep repeating this until they are gone!"And god knows what other goal-post moving tools will be used. There will be no satisfying anyone who isn't already satisfied. He has made two (4 per you) statements. One in the wake of harassment and one in response to the Neo-Nazis. Soar. Sociotard 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DasBroot Posted November 23, 2016 Report Share Posted November 23, 2016 There's a difference in how far each statement reached, though, as Megaplayboy has said. If you scream from the mountaintops for all to hear "I will build a wall" and then say to a few people on the ground after "Not a REAL wall. You know, a wall of vigilance and observation." you get remembered for screaming "I will build a wall" Saying the political equivalent of 'Just kidding' to a source that won't reach as far as your initial controversial claims shouldn't cut it. At the same time "Soar" is correct in that most people who formed an opinion based on the campaign rhetoric won't be moved by any public apologies on the matter regardless of the 'volume'. I don't think it's going to either benefit nor harm him to go to verbal war against the alt-right. I don't think it will earn him voters but it will certainly cost him a few (said alt-right). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
薔薇語 Posted November 23, 2016 Report Share Posted November 23, 2016 If he came out tomorrow and made a bit TV speech, i think it would be good. Just as I said before. I would like it. But I am not going to be convinced of his new commitments to minorities because of such a speech. I am also not in the group that thinks he is a raging racist inciting neo-nazis. I am not the demographic that needs convincing while still being in a demographic that won't be convinced. I can accept that. I wish Mega could too but ultimately nothing will change. As to him losing votes - meh. Non-point. This idea that he won any victories by catering to neo-nazis is gleefully unaware of the exit polls. Soar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
薔薇語 Posted November 23, 2016 Report Share Posted November 23, 2016 Haha. Even the Neo-Nazis don't seem to believe President Elect Trump when he disavows them. ^^http://www.joemygod.com/2016/11/23/nazi-leader-im-disappointed-trumps-disavowal-understand-forced/Soar. - I am looking forward to his swearing in so I can just start typing "Pres." instead of "President Elect". My fingers are getting tired. ^^ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
death tribble Posted November 23, 2016 Report Share Posted November 23, 2016 There goes the special relationship. Trump suggests that Nigel Farage should be the UK's ambassador to the US http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-38068519 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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