Dispel Running

[g3taso]

I was thinking about debilitating strikes in 5e (probably 6e also). Entangle was put forth in the description as possibly being a paralytic strike and that idea intrigued me. I realized that a SPD Drain would slow someone down, but people drain SPD for combat use only. Here's a proposed idea for a Power we use with a favorite weapon:

 

Slow The Target Down:  Dispel Running 3d6, Reduced Endurance (1/2 END; +1/4), Cumulative (+1/2), Continuous (+1) (25 Active Points); No Range (-1/2), OIF (-1/2)        (12 Real Points)

 

The way I see how this works, people get most of their 6" of Running removed when the attack hits, finishing up with a total of 9" of total Running loss the next phase.  The implications seem that in game terms, they still get their phases but they are losing movement half-move and full-move options. Am I right about this? So are they paralyzed? I could see this as that paralytic strike, hamstringing or one of those "vital strikes".

 

 

[ghost-angel]

They will be unable to use Running, as it will likely be reduced to 0 or less in the majority of cases.

 

But they will be able to use all Attack Power not linked to/relying on Running, or any other Movement Power (if you use this on someone with Flight, it's not going to help a lot in slowing them down).

[Nolgroth]

See page 58 of Champions Complete (right column).

 

EDIT: Sorry, hit the post button too soon.

 

You would need to use Drain to reduce running. Dispel does not work against Characteristics, unless they are bought as powers.

[Christopher]

See page 58 of Champions Complete (right column).

 

EDIT: Sorry, hit the post button too soon.

 

You would need to use Drain to reduce running. Dispel does not work against Characteristics, unless they are bought as powers.

And even then it will only disrupt this USE of the power. It will not prevent any further use (Dispel vs Foci has special optional rules).

And since running is instant, you would have to hold a action too (same as with dispelling a instant attack).

 

What you want is either:

- Trip. Telekinesis allows you to use any Basic Maneuver on range. Even martial maneuvers to some degree.

- Grab. Again TK is you friend

- Change Environment (- running). CE can explicitly area supress/counter movement. But it is one of the 3 fallback powers (Transform, CE, anything with Usable as Attack) wich should only be used if really no other power fits as they are hard to blance. And wich should never be used to replace a existing power with a cheaper/broken version.

[Lucius]

Look up the Impairing and Disabling rules under Optional Effects of Damage. Slowing someone's Running is already something you can potentially do without a special Power just by hitting them hard in the legs.

 

See page 58 of Champions Complete (right column).

 

EDIT: Sorry, hit the post button too soon.

 

You would need to use Drain to reduce running. Dispel does not work against Characteristics, unless they are bought as powers.

YES, he should not be using Dispel for this, but the reason is not that Dispel doesn't work against Characteristics. Running isn't a Characteristic. Running is a Power and Dispel works fine against it, BUT

 

And even then it will only disrupt this USE of the power. It will not prevent any further use (Dispel vs Foci has special optional rules).

The problem with Dispel vs Running, as Christopher rightly points out, is that Dispel doesn't stop anyone from "restarting" a Power. Dispel Running WOULD stop a running character dead in their tracks. But on their next phase they may start accelerating again from zero velocity.

 

However,

 

And since running is instant, you would have to hold a action too (same as with dispelling a instant attack).

Since the statement has been made that Running an Instant Power, it is worth pointing out that Running is actually a Constant Power and there is no reason to require a held action to Dispel Running.

 

The simplest way to get what you seem to be aiming at is either to use Drain with Delayed Return Rate (which also has the advantage that it's not all or nothing, you can slow someone down without having to stop them) or to just use the Impairing and Disabling rules - which is what you really seem to be trying to do anyway!

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary recapitulates the major points: Dispel stops a Power but does not prevent restarting it, Running is not a Characteristic, Running is not an Instant Power, if people would read and use the optional rules like Impairing and Disabling there'd be fewer of these freaky power builds trying to create the natural and inevitable results of injury, and if you're in a game where the person running it (pardon the expression) refuses to use Hit Locations and you still want to say "I hit 'em in the legs and slow 'em down" then use Drain.

[Nolgroth]

YES, he should not be using Dispel for this, but the reason is not that Dispel doesn't work against Characteristics. Running isn't a Characteristic. Running is a Power and Dispel works fine against it, BUT

 

Interesting. It has been clumped under Characteristics for so long that, it seems to me to be an intrinsic part of the character, like Strength or Presence. After reviewing the text, however, you are correct. It is distinctly stated to be a free allotment of Powers. 

[g3taso]

Well, unless I am wrong it appears that Dispel works for Running. Christopher had some good alternative build ideas, the Declared Disabling Attacks and others also would work. That being said, Dispel is able to affect Running so let's take a look at this again:

 

Slow The Target Down:  Dispel Running 3d6, Reduced Endurance (1/2 END; +1/4), Cumulative (+1/2), Continuous (+1) (25 Active Points); No Range (-1/2), OIF (-1/2)        (12 Real Points)

 

It's cumulative and continuous, so I understand that in this particular case a weapon hit causes in addition to weapon damage an average of 5pts of Running, continuing with 9" of running being Dispelled on the second round and maintaining that each round so long as END is paid. So the target is just moving slower and slower until all they can do is their attack actions and no move actions. Anyone have a differing opinion?  Checking because Lucius made a point about being able to restart Running each round and I wanted to be sure it was covered.

[massey]

You want Suppress instead of Dispel.  Dispel is all or nothing.  

[Netzilla]

Well, unless I am wrong it appears that Dispel works for Running. Christopher had some good alternative build ideas, the Declared Disabling Attacks and others also would work. That being said, Dispel is able to affect Running so let's take a look at this again:

 

Slow The Target Down:  Dispel Running 3d6, Reduced Endurance (1/2 END; +1/4), Cumulative (+1/2), Continuous (+1) (25 Active Points); No Range (-1/2), OIF (-1/2)        (12 Real Points)

 

It's cumulative and continuous, so I understand that in this particular case a weapon hit causes in addition to weapon damage an average of 5pts of Running, continuing with 9" of running being Dispelled on the second round and maintaining that each round so long as END is paid. So the target is just moving slower and slower until all they can do is their attack actions and no move actions. Anyone have a differing opinion?  Checking because Lucius made a point about being able to restart Running each round and I wanted to be sure it was covered.

 

Let's say you target someone with 9" of Running (18 Active Points).  You hit someone with your 'Slow The Target Down' power and roll a 10.  Nothing will happen.  Dispel does not have any effect unless you exceed their Active Point total.  All Cumulative does in this case is that when you hit them with the power again, you'll add what you roll to that 10 points and see if you beat the AP.  Let's say you roll a 7; nothing will happen and you'll have to try again on your following phase but this time you'll have 17 points of Dispel 'banked'.  If you do manage to roll high enough and Dispel their running, then they'll stop running immediately.  However, on their following Phase, they can just start running again and you'll have to start over again from 0 if you want to Dispel their Running again.  All Continuous does in this case is keep you from having to make a to hit roll each time you use the power.

 

You really want Drain/Suppress for this.  This is the kind of thing those powers do.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Dispel running is a vaild concept, but all it does is stop them from running until their next phase, when they can turn the running on again.  And any momentum they had continues, it doesn't suck kinetic energy out of them.

 

I know movement abilities are listed with characteristics on the sheet, but they aren't characteristics, they can be adjusted etc.

[Christopher]

Dispel running is a vaild concept, but all it does is stop them from running until their next phase, when they can turn the running on again.  And any momentum they had continues, it doesn't suck kinetic energy out of them.

 

I know movement abilities are listed with characteristics on the sheet, but they aren't characteristics, they can be adjusted etc.

I just realised:

Would they not enter "uncontrolled movement"?

 

I mean there is a difference between flying and falling. One is a controlled movement (even if you fly down with aid of gravity). The other is uncontrolled.

What would happen if a car suddenly looses it's running (say due to aquaplaning)? It would not stop by definition. But it would also become pretty much uncontrollable. It "exceeded the speed it's movement can operate on", wheter this is due to excessive acceleration or a sudden drop in base speed does not really mater.

[Christopher R Taylor]

I think a car is a good example, dispelling movement on a car is like taking your foot off the gas, it still keeps going.

 

But can it steer?  Is steering and control inherent to the movement power or a separate thing?  It seems to me that the person would keep going the direction they are without being able to change direction.

But since you can only change direction on your phase, they'd start up running again and the point is moot.

[g3taso]

Let's say you target someone with 9" of Running (18 Active Points).  You hit someone with your 'Slow The Target Down' power and roll a 10.  Nothing will happen.  Dispel does not have any effect unless you exceed their Active Point total.  All Cumulative does in this case is that when you hit them with the power again, you'll add what you roll to that 10 points and see if you beat the AP.  Let's say you roll a 7; nothing will happen and you'll have to try again on your following phase but this time you'll have 17 points of Dispel 'banked'.  If you do manage to roll high enough and Dispel their running, then they'll stop running immediately.  However, on their following Phase, they can just start running again and you'll have to start over again from 0 if you want to Dispel their Running again.  All Continuous does in this case is keep you from having to make a to hit roll each time you use the power.

 

You really want Drain/Suppress for this.  This is the kind of thing those powers do.

OK, that is the essential piece I was not getting. Continuous does not mean they cannot re-start a power. It's a "one shot" even with Continuous. Got it.

 

In that case, I like Suppress

There Is No Escape:  Suppress Running 2d6 (standard effect: 6 points), Reduced Endurance (1/2 END; +1/4), Cumulative (24 points; +3/4), Continuous (+1) (30 Active Points); 

[Netzilla]

I just realised:

Would they not enter "uncontrolled movement"?

 

I mean there is a difference between flying and falling. One is a controlled movement (even if you fly down with aid of gravity). The other is uncontrolled.

What would happen if a car suddenly looses it's running (say due to aquaplaning)? It would not stop by definition. But it would also become pretty much uncontrollable. It "exceeded the speed it's movement can operate on", wheter this is due to excessive acceleration or a sudden drop in base speed does not really mater.

 

I think I"m largely on the same page as CT on this.  If flying, you'll start falling but also continue forward in a parabolic arc until it's your Phase and you can start up your Flying again.  Same as if you'd turned off your Flying voluntarily.  With the car, it would continue going forward and you could potentially make a case for deceleration by coasting (but not the same as breaking).  As for steering, I don't think that's really going to be affected because as soon as it's your Phase again (even if you abort to 'Drive Defensively') you can re-activate the car's Ground Movement as a 0-phase action.

 

Now, what happens if you Dispel a movement power that has the Extra Time limitation at greater than the 1 Phase level?  I'd argue that you're uncontrolled until the movement power is completely activated.  So, that car wouldn't be able to steer until the Extra Time limitation was satisfied.  [GotJ Theme]Watch out for that tree![/GotJ Theme]

[massey]

Dispel just takes a power and turns it off. For most powers, this isn't all that useful, because it takes no time to turn them back on again. That's why Dispel is so cheap. Now, combined with a Speed advantage, Dispel can be pretty good, because you can drop people's defensive powers and then shoot at them, etc. But since characters don't actually move on their off-phases, Dispelling movement doesn't really have any effect. You could hold your action and then stop someone from moving on that phase, but unless you want to keep doing that over and over, it won't do anything.

 

Dispel is primarily useful for busting foci and turning off powers that take time to start back up. Using it against a normal movement power is really a waste.

[Lucius]

It's cumulative and continuous, so I understand that in this particular case a weapon hit causes in addition to weapon damage

I think it's "instead of weapon damage" unless you either A.) make a Multiple Attack combining this with the weapon attack, or B. ) put a Trigger on this Power that can go off when you do weapon damage.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Or C. ) bribe the palindromedary if the palindromedary is running the game

[Christougher]

Since I recently saw this on the Rules Questions forum, what about a Change Environment to reduce Running movement?  It's Area of Effect, so you don't have to hit the target, and they get no Power Defense to mitigate the loss. 

 

The latter of those being the reason I despise CE being able to buy ancillary effects like that.

[Lucius]

Since I recently saw this on the Rules Questions forum, what about a Change Environment to reduce Running movement?  It's Area of Effect, so you don't have to hit the target, and they get no Power Defense to mitigate the loss. 

 

The latter of those being the reason I despise CE being able to buy ancillary effects like that.

 

Isn't there a built in requirement that Change Environment has to have some way to resist it, like Usable as Attack and Damage over Time etc.?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

I have a palindromedary

[Ninja-Bear]

Look up the Impairing and Disabling rules under Optional Effects of Damage. Slowing someone's Running is already something you can potentially do without a special Power just by hitting them hard in the legs.

 

 

YES, he should not be using Dispel for this, but the reason is not that Dispel doesn't work against Characteristics. Running isn't a Characteristic. Running is a Power and Dispel works fine against it, BUT

 

 

The problem with Dispel vs Running, as Christopher rightly points out, is that Dispel doesn't stop anyone from "restarting" a Power. Dispel Running WOULD stop a running character dead in their tracks. But on their next phase they may start accelerating again from zero velocity.

 

However,

 

 

Since the statement has been made that Running an Instant Power, it is worth pointing out that Running is actually a Constant Power and there is no reason to require a held action to Dispel Running.

 

The simplest way to get what you seem to be aiming at is either to use Drain with Delayed Return Rate (which also has the advantage that it's not all or nothing, you can slow someone down without having to stop them) or to just use the Impairing and Disabling rules - which is what you really seem to be trying to do anyway!

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary recapitulates the major points: Dispel stops a Power but does not prevent restarting it, Running is not a Characteristic, Running is not an Instant Power, if people would read and use the optional rules like Impairing and Disabling there'd be fewer of these freaky power builds trying to create the natural and inevitable results of injury, and if you're in a game where the person running it (pardon the expression) refuses to use Hit Locations and you still want to say "I hit 'em in the legs and slow 'em down" then use Drain.

The problem with thus is you are using optional rules which can be more of a headache than what its worth.

[eepjr24]

Isn't there a built in requirement that Change Environment has to have some way to resist it, like Usable as Attack and Damage over Time etc.?

 

Lucius Alexander

Sort of. 6e1, 176

 

 

Except for Change Environments that directly cause damage (against which a character’s ordinary defenses apply), typically, the defense versus a Change Environment’s effects is to avoid getting hit by it, or to stay out of/get out of the affected area. However, the GM may in his discretion rule that certain defenses, or actions by the affected character, constitute protection against a Change Environment’s effects. For example, having certain Enhanced Senses might act as a “defense” against gloom-based CEs that inhibit vision, having a certain amount of Power Defense might reduce or eliminate the effect of a single-target CE, and putting on snowshoes or spiked boots would protect a character against the DEX Roll penalty imposed by an ice sheet. As always, you should consider the special effects involved, common sense, and dramatic sense.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Change Environment was meant for things like mud that slow people down rather than just removing their ability to move.  That's why its kind of expensive to use for such an application.

[Ninja-Bear]

If you define entangle as legcuffs, I think you can still have some movement. So if you define the strike as an entangle, you could still have some movement and also stops attacks such as kicks too. It might be a better build.