Losing Wealth and getting it back

[Steve]

A player has purchased 15 points of Wealth on his character, wanting the character to be as rich as Tony Stark or Bruce Wayne.

 

In the comics, those two characters have lost their fortunes multiple times.

 

How do you simulate this in the game? The GM runs a scenario where Villain X steals the player's company and his wealth as part of a nefarious plot. So, for how long is the player unable to use his Wealth Perk because of that plot complication? Does it heal back like damage over a few sessions? Does it just come back all at once eventually?

[eepjr24]

Generally I would let the player work to right whatever made them lose the wealth as a first option. After all, it was introduced as a plot point, let it play out. Maybe they end up deciding that what it takes to get the wealth back is not worth it. Or maybe they come up with a clever scheme to trick it back into their hands. Either way, the plot thickens. If they don't manage to get it back within a couple sessions I would talk with the player to see how they feel about it, if it needs to be some stroke of luck or other event out of the blue that restores it or if they would rather role play "fighting back" to their station in life.

 

- E

[Hyper-Man]

I would probably provide the PC with an equivalent number of points worth of Contacts/Favor Perks that could help them re-establish their wealth. Other NPC's that were also negatively affected by the same NPC responsible for the PC's loss of wealth would probably line up behind someone willing to directly confront or compete with that main antagonist.

 

HM

[Hugh Neilson]

Generally I would let the player work to right whatever made them lose the wealth as a first option. After all, it was introduced as a plot point, let it play out. Maybe they end up deciding that what it takes to get the wealth back is not worth it. Or maybe they come up with a clever scheme to trick it back into their hands. Either way, the plot thickens. If they don't manage to get it back within a couple sessions I would talk with the player to see how they feel about it, if it needs to be some stroke of luck or other event out of the blue that restores it or if they would rather role play "fighting back" to their station in life.

Maybe the wealth stays lost and we give the player the points to spend in some other manner. Green Arrow started off as rich as Batman, but lost his fortune. Didn't Blue Beetle lose his as well?

[massey]

Before I even messed with it, I would ask the player how he feels about losing his wealth. If he's not interested in roleplaying through that, I wouldn't bother with it. You normally wouldn't take a guy's Dex or Str for multiple sessions at a time without talking to him about it first.

 

When this sort of thing happens in the comics, it's usually part of a subplot, and it doesn't last that long relative to the character's history. Batman can lose his money for 3 or 4 months, but that's a character that has been around for 80 years. In a campaign where you've had like 6 sessions so far, it's probably not time to have a lengthy story arc like this unless the player really wants to.

[massey]

Losing wealth for a time may be a good excuse for the player to fiddle with his character sheet. There's up to 15 points to play with there if you need to. It could function as a mini-radiation accident.

 

So let's say Batman didn't have enough points available to be rich, a great martial artist, have a utility belt, be a detective, have a batcave, and be a scientist. So he cuts some corners and decides that later on he's going to spend his XP on the batcave and the science stuff. And then there's an adventure where the batcave and the science could be critical to solving things, but all he's bought at that point is Chemistry at 8-. So you tell him he can trade in his wealth for the ability to purchase the needed skills and a very basic batcave with lab, but there'll be a wealth subplot next session where he loses his money until he earns enough XP to buy it back.

 

I think something like that would be just fine with most players. They feel like they're getting something for the trade.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Well, this is a concept in gaming that is not so much a bug or a feature, but an aspect of the nature of entertainment.  Old Man brought this up in the Captain America Civil War 

 

That's kind of an indictment of Champions actually.  It's easy to buy off disads with xp, but adding new ones is not exactly supported by the system, even when it might advance character development.

 

 

Its not really just Champions, though.  There are no rules for a RPG I'm aware of that have characters permanently lose points except in very specific examples (having a duplicate die, losing a deep cover, etc).  The only real direction is to gain power, not lose.  And in genre literature these games are based on, ups and downs are pretty common... particularly in the good stuff.

[Tech]

I did this once to a couple players who owned a corporation together. However, this only lasted to the end of the game whereby everything was back to normal. I would talk to a player first about trying this: like massey said, if they're not interested in roleplaying it, don't bother.

[eepjr24]

Well, this is a concept in gaming that is not so much a bug or a feature, but an aspect of the nature of entertainment.  Old Man brought this up in the Captain America Civil War 

It's fine to add Complications later if that fits the game flow or character concept. You just don't get additional points for them.

 

- E

[Christopher R Taylor]

Sure, and I've added hunteds to people sometimes.  But taking things away like powers or equipment just doesn't happen in games, at least that I know of.  I've even tweaked the rules for Deep Cover and Duplication so that you don't permanently lose points with them if things go wrong.  Its pretty common in source literature for people to lose things - even lose everything - and then battle back.  But not very fun to have imposed on you by the GM.

[eepjr24]

Agreed. If that happens for whatever reason I generally let the player reuse the points somehow. 

[massey]

Well, this is a concept in gaming that is not so much a bug or a feature, but an aspect of the nature of entertainment.  Old Man brought this up in the Captain America Civil War 

 

 

Its not really just Champions, though.  There are no rules for a RPG I'm aware of that have characters permanently lose points except in very specific examples (having a duplicate die, losing a deep cover, etc).  The only real direction is to gain power, not lose.  And in genre literature these games are based on, ups and downs are pretty common... particularly in the good stuff.

 

Oh really?

 

They're called "rust monsters" and "wraiths".

[Surrealone]

But taking things away like powers or equipment just doesn't happen in games, at least that I know of.

Really?  Then I presume the Focus limitation is worth 0 in your games, since it's not an actual limitation if a focus (equipment) is never taken, missing, etc. -- and therefore worth nothing.

 

As for things not getting taken -- characters die in the game I'm playing in; equipment is absolutely taken; and perks like Contacts, Money, etc. can (and do) disappear out from under characters.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Then I presume the Focus limitation is worth 0 in your games, since it's not an actual limitation if a focus (equipment) is never taken, missing, etc. -- and therefore worth nothing.

 

 

I'm sorry if I wasn't clear.  I meant permanently, not for a short time, with things like a focus.  Like the original poster was talking about, a catastrophic loss of money.

[Steve]

I'm sorry if I wasn't clear.  I meant permanently, not for a short time, with things like a focus.  Like the original poster was talking about, a catastrophic loss of money.

 

I wasn't speaking of a permanent loss. The character would get it back. My question was more how quickly it comes back.

[Surrealone]

I wasn't speaking of a permanent loss. The character would get it back. My question was more how quickly it comes back.

Well, you could use the Green Arrow series as an example.  Oliver Queen lost Queen Consolidated (which was basically the foundation of his fortune) when Isabel Rochev betrays him on behalf of Slade Wilson in season 2.  In season 3, Ray Palmer buys the company and renames it Palmer Technologies.  In season 4 Felicity Smoak assumes control of Palmer Technologies when Ray Palmer goes missing.

 

Technically, Oliver still doesn't have control of the company -- Felicity does.  Practically speaking, though, she was a girlfriend DNPC at the time -- meaning Oliver eventually regained access to his fortune and it was simply via his DNPC (at the time) instead of direct.

 

​That was more than a full season of episodes where Oliver wasn't fabulously wealthy.  The real question is -- can your player handle that?

 

Surreal

[Christopher R Taylor]

In that case, its going to depend on how the player and you work it out or what they're willing to put up with.  One adventure arc is probably best if its meant to be temporary.

[Hugh Neilson]

Well, you could use the Green Arrow series as an example.  Oliver Queen lost Queen Consolidated (which was basically the foundation of his fortune) when Isabel Rochev betrays him on behalf of Slade Wilson in season 2.  In season 3, Ray Palmer buys the company and renames it Palmer Technologies.  In season 4 Felicity Smoak assumes control of Palmer Technologies when Ray Palmer goes missing.

 

Technically, Oliver still doesn't have control of the company -- Felicity does.  Practically speaking, though, she was a girlfriend DNPC at the time -- meaning Oliver eventually regained access to his fortune and it was simply via his DNPC (at the time) instead of direct.

 

​That was more than a full season of episodes where Oliver wasn't fabulously wealthy.  The real question is -- can your player handle that?

And Season 4 ended with Felicity getting terminated by the Board.

 

It's been noted more than once that, despite the fluctuations in wealth, Oliver never seemed to lose any of its benefits. Who's paying Diggle? He was paid as Oliver's bodyguard, and he does not seem to have any other paying work. Who's paying for all that gear, including the base that gets trashed every few episodes (counterpoint: they can't seem to fund better security )? It doesn't seem like Oliver has ever lost the benefits of his Wealth perk, they just aren't explained by anything in the background for extended periods.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Same thing in Dark Knight Rises, Bruce Wayne lost all his wealth supposedly (in a really contrived way, but that's another whole rant) but really showed no ill effects of it.  He still had all his gadgets, still was able to fuel the bat vehicles, still could somehow make it from... whatever quasi-Arabic location that prison was in to Gotham on foot, etc.

[Greywind]

Not to the Wealth issue, but other points raised:

 

In AC#3 "Terror in the Treasures" there was The Orb. The Orb would "(11-) heal any wounds (mental or physical) of characters in the same hex. It will cure any abnormalities occurring in a human."

 

Mutations are abnormalities. Granted that the adventure states that the effect should wear off in time and giving the suggestion of months. It was also offered to have random effects, increasing or decreasing power levels, and the option to use it as a Radiation Accident if the player so wished.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Another classic example is Storm losing all her powers in the X-Men, but suddenly becoming a deadly street fighter, then getting her powers back and dropping that.

[Greywind]

Not really. On the one hand she was a street urchin until her teens. After that she trained with Logan. With powers hth isn't necessary. Lost powers, or just unable to use them, she is still formidable.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Yeah, except until that point she not only showed zero examples of having any such skill, she was actually very pacifistic, poor in melee situations, and demonstrably not a fighter for like 180 issues of X-Men until she lost her powers.  She was depicted as a sneak thief skinny little girl, not a street fighter.  Basically, Claremont wanted her to stay in the X-Men and be cool, so he just gave her the skills until they weren't needed any longer.

Kind of like how every villain loses a good 150 points or more when they become good guys

[bigdamnhero]

I'll add my voice to the "Talk to the player first" chorus. It really depends on the player, and what made them want to run a Rich Kid in the first place.

 

Some players would embrace this as a great roleplaying opportunity. So then don't worry about the mechanics of it so much and have a character arc where they fight to get back control of their company or whatever.

 

Others would accept it as long as they didn't lose the points permanently. With them, focus on the mechanics: give them the 15 points to spend on other stuff, and then they can just buy back the Money Perk with XP normally.

 

Others would see it as a violation of their character concept and GM Meddling of the worst sort. So don't go there. Just...don't.

 

Unless you've known this player for awhile and you're confident how they'll react and that they like being surprised like this, I wouldn't guess.

[wolfrunswithfox]

If you want to run a plotline like this with the character, have you considered adapting the Focus limitation and asking them to apply it to their wealth perk?  If you look past the physical flavor, the primary narrative effect of Obvious Inaccessible Focus is that it is sometimes unavailable (to take an example from the MCU, Tony Stark spent most of Iron Man 3 witho ut his OIF suit powers).  In the case of a character like Bruce Wayne or Oliver Queen, applying OIF: Corporation seems like a good way to represent a wealth base that is normally accessible, but can be taken away temporarily (because of legal/political shennanigans, or because the wealthy individual happens to be on the moon at the moment).

 

In terms of the social contract of the game, putting the focus limitation on a power is the player saying "Hey GM, you should take this away from me sometimes" and getting some points in return, which sounds like exactly what you want here.