Hero System Lucky 7th Edition?

[Sketchpad]

What Hero needs is content. Publishing a new edition without any (new) supporting material doesn't get us anywhere.

 

I agree. See my other post.

[Sketchpad]

Have you looked at the Digital Hero stuff in the store?  Its older (5e) but its got lots of things there...

 

Yup. I actually worked on some of the issues.

[Amorkca]

Yup. I actually worked on some of the issues.

 

I've been going back to some of the AC books I have and re-doing the characters for Hero 6e.

 

Ran a modified version of The Cassandra Matrix, that we just wrapped up

[TheDarkness]

For me, it's not a nostalgia thing. Rather it's a "We have this, let's use it" thing. Games like Danger International and Justice Inc were fun, sure. But why not use them and expand on them? DI could be the agency that the espionage/military game is built around for example.

 

Another thing that we need, I believe, is a new Adventurer's Club magazine. Whether print or an e-zine, a well-done magazine that could publish new characters, adventures and even reviews would be pretty handy. 

My point was, some names don't age well at all, no matter who owns them. And some are transparently derivative, and it will not inspire new gamers who will say, "Hey, this knockoff of Hydra is making me want to buy this game!" This doesn't mean a lot of the content of a property isn't useful, but some names are not a selling point, imo, and are, in fact, a detriment.

 

I agree that content is good, but, having it before didn't forestall Hero from getting into the position it is, so on its own, I see it as a product without a sufficiently large market to pay for its production, much less a sustainable venture('it' here being modules and content built on the premise of supporting the system as it stands).

[Tasha]

Some of the names are trademarked in other places. ie Justice Inc is currently a name of a comic that Dynamite is currently publishing.

[Nolgroth]

I agree that content is good, but, having it before didn't forestall Hero from getting into the position it is, so on its own, I see it as a product without a sufficiently large market to pay for its production, much less a sustainable venture.

 

The problem is that Hero didn't diversify its content. Hero content could basically be summed up as;

1. Rules Books
2. Genre Treatments
3. Resources like enemies and compilations of power write-ups.
4. Campaign Settings without further support

Where I believe they failed is with #4. There were few support materials for their campaigns like adventures and gazetteer products that finely tuned the settings down and gave gaming groups a real launch point. An argument could (and has) been made that there wasn't the market for those kinds of things. I don't necessarily agree. I believe the lack of those materials made all but the most ardent DUI GM move on to a system that had those kinds of materials. I would argue that the most aggressive of the "Old Guard" toolkitters are here on the Hero Forums.

 

Now, is it too late for Hero to grab an audience? Maybe. The times have changed from when "crunchy" games like Hero were the big thing. Sure Pathfinder and D&D have as much or more crunch but people have been gaming with those systems for decades. They are the common parlance in gaming. To make a "rules lite" Hero is silly. You would lose most of what makes Hero, Hero. You would probably end up with something that looks more like FATE, which would lead most rules lite people to contend that there is no need to switch. In my opinion, quality content is the only way Hero stands a chance. Plopping something that has less than standard art, poor writing and poorer editing, onto the table is just not the answer. Anything that Hero launches, going forward, has to win over the critics based on its art, writing, layout and all that stuff. If it doesn't impress the critics and players, earn a reputation as something somebody wants to buy, and be accessible through many different outlets, Hero is going to continue languishing in the Limbo that it currently resides in.

 

What makes quality content? Good question and probably deserves a forum thread all of its own. What I do know is, barring somebody that is extraordinarily talented, it is going to take more than a lone wolf to knock out the kind of products that Hero needs. It will take a team of artists, cartographers, writers, editors and layout (artists? technicians? dudes?) to make something work. THAT is where the rub is; finding a group of people with the talent, drive and dedication to see through the production process. Heck, even having something like a Pathfinder Adventure Path published once per year would be nice. Perhaps a quarterly periodical that incorporates elements of the old Dungeon and Dragon magazines (part articles, part adventures). 

 

I also believe that we need a unified campaign setting for each genre, much like has been mentioned above. All support materials for that genre must then be driven through that setting. For example, Champions for Superheroes, Terran Empire for Sci-Fi, Ambrethel (aka Turakian Age) for Fantasy, etc. There are plenty of genres to write for, but within each genre, support the mainline setting. Expand upon it. Create adventures for it. Write fiction for it. Once the ball gets rolling, then you can drop the Conan-esque setting like Valdorian Age or a prequel Alien Wars setting. I offered those settings because they are already "official" Hero settings. It could be any setting, but it needs to be supported beyond the "Here is the General Setting Overview" book.

 

I'm not really saying stuff that is too far afield from what others are. I just have my vision for how to make Hero viable again and that vision may or may not be flawed. I still think that it is valuable to continue the discussion, in the hopes that some sort of dream team comes together. I hold out hope that it is possible to make Hero great again. Without that hope, I just have to content myself with playing a system with a shrinking fan base and no strong official support. I don't think I'm ready to throw in that towel yet.

[TheDarkness]

The problem is that Hero didn't diversify its content. Hero content could basically be summed up as;

1. Rules Books
2. Genre Treatments
3. Resources like enemies and compilations of power write-ups.
4. Campaign Settings without further support

Where I believe they failed is with #4. There were few support materials for their campaigns like adventures and gazetteer products that finely tuned the settings down and gave gaming groups a real launch point. An argument could (and has) been made that there wasn't the market for those kinds of things. I don't necessarily agree. I believe the lack of those materials made all but the most ardent DUI GM move on to a system that had those kinds of materials. I would argue that the most aggressive of the "Old Guard" toolkitters are here on the Hero Forums.

 

Now, is it too late for Hero to grab an audience? Maybe. The times have changed from when "crunchy" games like Hero were the big thing. Sure Pathfinder and D&D have as much or more crunch but people have been gaming with those systems for decades. They are the common parlance in gaming. To make a "rules lite" Hero is silly. You would lose most of what makes Hero, Hero. You would probably end up with something that looks more like FATE, which would lead most rules lite people to contend that there is no need to switch. In my opinion, quality content is the only way Hero stands a chance. Plopping something that has less than standard art, poor writing and poorer editing, onto the table is just not the answer. Anything that Hero launches, going forward, has to win over the critics based on its art, writing, layout and all that stuff. If it doesn't impress the critics and players, earn a reputation as something somebody wants to buy, and be accessible through many different outlets, Hero is going to continue languishing in the Limbo that it currently resides in.

 

What makes quality content? Good question and probably deserves a forum thread all of its own. What I do know is, barring somebody that is extraordinarily talented, it is going to take more than a lone wolf to knock out the kind of products that Hero needs. It will take a team of artists, cartographers, writers, editors and layout (artists? technicians? dudes?) to make something work. THAT is where the rub is; finding a group of people with the talent, drive and dedication to see through the production process. Heck, even having something like a Pathfinder Adventure Path published once per year would be nice. Perhaps a quarterly periodical that incorporates elements of the old Dungeon and Dragon magazines (part articles, part adventures).

 

I also believe that we need a unified campaign setting for each genre, much like has been mentioned above. All support materials for that genre must then be driven through that setting. For example, Champions for Superheroes, Terran Empire for Sci-Fi, Ambrethel (aka Turakian Age) for Fantasy, etc. There are plenty of genres to write for, but within each genre, support the mainline setting. Expand upon it. Create adventures for it. Write fiction for it. Once the ball gets rolling, then you can drop the Conan-esque setting like Valdorian Age or a prequel Alien Wars setting. I offered those settings because they already exist within the Hero Games framework. It doesn't matter what the setting is, just so long as one becomes "official" and supported.

 

I also have some genuine snake oil i

 

 

 

The problem is that Hero didn't diversify its content. Hero content could basically be summed up as;

1. Rules Books
2. Genre Treatments
3. Resources like enemies and compilations of power write-ups.
4. Campaign Settings without further support

Where I believe they failed is with #4. There were few support materials for their campaigns like adventures and gazetteer products that finely tuned the settings down and gave gaming groups a real launch point. An argument could (and has) been made that there wasn't the market for those kinds of things. I don't necessarily agree. I believe the lack of those materials made all but the most ardent DUI GM move on to a system that had those kinds of materials. I would argue that the most aggressive of the "Old Guard" toolkitters are here on the Hero Forums.

 

Now, is it too late for Hero to grab an audience? Maybe. The times have changed from when "crunchy" games like Hero were the big thing. Sure Pathfinder and D&D have as much or more crunch but people have been gaming with those systems for decades. They are the common parlance in gaming. To make a "rules lite" Hero is silly. You would lose most of what makes Hero, Hero. You would probably end up with something that looks more like FATE, which would lead most rules lite people to contend that there is no need to switch. In my opinion, quality content is the only way Hero stands a chance. Plopping something that has less than standard art, poor writing and poorer editing, onto the table is just not the answer. Anything that Hero launches, going forward, has to win over the critics based on its art, writing, layout and all that stuff. If it doesn't impress the critics and players, earn a reputation as something somebody wants to buy, and be accessible through many different outlets, Hero is going to continue languishing in the Limbo that it currently resides in.

 

What makes quality content? Good question and probably deserves a forum thread all of its own. What I do know is, barring somebody that is extraordinarily talented, it is going to take more than a lone wolf to knock out the kind of products that Hero needs. It will take a team of artists, cartographers, writers, editors and layout (artists? technicians? dudes?) to make something work. THAT is where the rub is; finding a group of people with the talent, drive and dedication to see through the production process. Heck, even having something like a Pathfinder Adventure Path published once per year would be nice. Perhaps a quarterly periodical that incorporates elements of the old Dungeon and Dragon magazines (part articles, part adventures). 

 

I also believe that we need a unified campaign setting for each genre, much like has been mentioned above. All support materials for that genre must then be driven through that setting. For example, Champions for Superheroes, Terran Empire for Sci-Fi, Ambrethel (aka Turakian Age) for Fantasy, etc. There are plenty of genres to write for, but within each genre, support the mainline setting. Expand upon it. Create adventures for it. Write fiction for it. Once the ball gets rolling, then you can drop the Conan-esque setting like Valdorian Age or a prequel Alien Wars setting. I offered those settings because they are already "official" Hero settings. It could be any setting, but it needs to be supported beyond the "Here is the General Setting Overview" book.

 

I'm not really saying stuff that is too far afield from what others are. I just have my vision for how to make Hero viable again and that vision may or may not be flawed. I still think that it is valuable to continue the discussion, in the hopes that some sort of dream team comes together. I hold out hope that it is possible to make Hero great again. Without that hope, I just have to content myself with playing a system with a shrinking fan base and no strong official support. I don't think I'm ready to throw in that towel yet.

I'm with you on a lot of this, although I am curious about that snake oil you so tantalizingly mentioned!

 

My view is that a campaign setting, for example, for fantasy, is, essentially, already Hero semi-light, as it will tend to define guidelines. Semi-light, in my opinion, does nothing to help. I really feel that a system in which abilities are prebuilt, and not defined in Hero accounting jargon, but whose actual builds are accessible online, will, if people play it, lead to people, especially GMs, buying the full rules to add their own builds to their campaigns, which would be entirely Hero compatible, merely having a prebuilt basis, not actually being a separate system, but allowing for any build from Hero to be placed within it without horribly upsetting balance(anymore than builds already do!)

 

And agreed on the need for a good product, good art, etc. But the Hero rulebook is, by its very definition, going to be a bigger buy. If you can get people playing a prebuilt game at a lower cost, some of whom would then buy the full rules for their own evil uses, is more people playing, and would be preserving Hero better than counting on finding players who are not going to be intimidated by the full rules from the get-go.

 

That said, that is my theory, I'm not saying anyone else is wrong, I just really think the full rules are both the best part of the game, and a strong reason there are not really a ton of players. I don't think art or anything else is going to go around that.

 

Last point. I really think that the names of the products should, without education, ring for customers. All but one of the ones you mentioned I feel are broadly marketable. Turakian, however, I don't feel will ring as the name of the fantasy base. Using examples like Pathfinder, Fate, Ravenloft, even without any particular knowledge of what they are references to, the names have meanings that elicit some response,

[Nolgroth]

Yeah, typed a bunch and copied over to back it up. Something must have happened where I repasted the original. 

 

But snake oil, yeah, you got two messages for the price of one. It will also heal all ailments, bless your soul to ensure your heavenly passage (after a long and fruitful life), and is not approved by the FDA. All for the bargain price of 10 easy installments of $9,999.00 plus Shipping and Handling. You can also just put a glass under the tap and run some cold water.

[Doc Democracy]

Runequest almost thrived on good fan-based products for decades.  I think quite a few of the early editions of those magazines sell for more than the rules they supported...

 

There are talented people out there.  There is a lot of material out there.  It needs someone willing (and able) to corral that into product that will attract some level of acclaim and enough attention that people will want to use the material.  It does not always cost a lot of money - less than when fan-based stuff was poorly typeset photocopies (and folk still bought those...)

 

 

Doc

[Doc Democracy]

The problem with "A Hero in X Published world" is that pesky IP thingie that gets publishers sued or at the least ceased and Desisted. Any "homage" to a published IP will end up looking like the Author's idea of the world.

 

 

 

Oh yes.  There is IP but IP is too often conflated with "can't go there" rather than "is there a deal to be done?".

 

Now deals are often quid pro quo.  It would need someone to go through the potential of such a thing and to see whether there is benefit that could be gained on each side and whether there is any potential for damage.

 

If WotC want people to buy Greyhawk material, is it to their advantage that the setting can be played in multiple systems?

If HERO produce a book that makes Greyhawk easily accessible to people who will not play D&D, does WotC suffer?

If HERO produce a book that makes Greyhawk accessible to HERO gamers, will D&D gamers switch to HERO to play there?

 

I think only the last item is a potential loss for WotC.  And I think that potential is probably pretty small and also probably outweighed by the fact that they would continue to purchase Greyhawk materials...

 

There will be some settings where there is resistance (I do believe there is an issue with Palladium stuff... :-) ) but there will be others that will be open to it.  I see Chaosium making deals like this - there are now four systems that support gaming in Glorantha.  I think there would be a deal to be done to produce "A HERO in Glorantha book"...

 

My main question though was not whether it was practical - I was wondering whether other people would buy this kind of book and, if they were available, would they be the same kind of gateway as the proposed "Powered by HERO" games??

 

 

Doc

[Roter Baron]

Glorantha HERO would be great!

 

But I would not outrule Palladium Fantasy - not anymore, since Mister "My system or bust!" a.k.a Captain TradeMark did a deal and now there is a hugely successful kickstater for Savage Worlds RIFTS.  Of course, here we have a setting with a very enthusiastic fan-base coming together with a rules system that is one of the most popular and prolificly published.

 

But since the Pally fantasy system is outdated and sub-par but the world quite interesting and long-standing there might be a chance.

[TheDarkness]

Oh yes.  There is IP but IP is too often conflated with "can't go there" rather than "is there a deal to be done?".

 

Now deals are often quid pro quo.  It would need someone to go through the potential of such a thing and to see whether there is benefit that could be gained on each side and whether there is any potential for damage.

 

If WotC want people to buy Greyhawk material, is it to their advantage that the setting can be played in multiple systems?

If HERO produce a book that makes Greyhawk easily accessible to people who will not play D&D, does WotC suffer?

If HERO produce a book that makes Greyhawk accessible to HERO gamers, will D&D gamers switch to HERO to play there?

 

I think only the last item is a potential loss for WotC.  And I think that potential is probably pretty small and also probably outweighed by the fact that they would continue to purchase Greyhawk materials...

 

There will be some settings where there is resistance (I do believe there is an issue with Palladium stuff... :-) ) but there will be others that will be open to it.  I see Chaosium making deals like this - there are now four systems that support gaming in Glorantha.  I think there would be a deal to be done to produce "A HERO in Glorantha book"...

 

My main question though was not whether it was practical - I was wondering whether other people would buy this kind of book and, if they were available, would they be the same kind of gateway as the proposed "Powered by HERO" games??

 

 

Doc

I can't really answer that, but my gut tells me that for fantasy. Hero needs its own proprietary setting that sells, and after, the capacity to use licenses to produce other popular settings. But again, that's just my gut saying this.

 

For supers, the Champions pantheon, imo, needs to have what they have looked at, updated, all clearly derivative aspects essentially repackaged/renamed and with only the best aspects of their backstory honed in order to add to a more competitive world. As it stands, there is a ton of material to use, as compared to FH, and I think, for supers gamers, Champions is the most competitively placed product Hero has, but it would require an eye able to discern what we gloss over because we're Champions gamers and fighting with Until or against Viper is part of our experience, for example, whereas new customers might look at those names as too blatant of knockoffs.

 

The reason I focus on those two is that I feel hero already has a strong basis in super gaming, and fantasy is played, at some point, by everyone, but I think Hero's strength as a system is not at good use when adapting a preexisting setting for fantasy(which has preexisting conditions for magic, power levels, etc.) because that only shows that Hero can do what other systems can, and fails to show what it can do that they can't.

 

For science fiction, I actually think licensing, in the long run, is the best bet.

[Sketchpad]

Some of the names are trademarked in other places. ie Justice Inc is currently a name of a comic that Dynamite is currently publishing.

To be fair, it was a comic (and novel IIRC) before it was a game.

[Tasha]

Licencing cost money and has huge headaches associated with it.

Good solid game worlds in every genre is what is needed. With all of the mechanics in place so the GM can pick it up and play. Not genre textbooks, but actual game worlds. 

[Doc Democracy]

tasha, in a perfect world I would agree with you.  The problem is that while dealing with existing IP, generating a good, solid game world also costs money and there are plenty of problems getting artwork and production values that earn your setting space in a crowded marketplace.

 

Getting Greyhawk and Glorantha fans to play HERO potentially sells rulebooks.  rulebooks broadens the base and possibly opens the door for a market for HERO derived settings.

 

Just looking at myself.  I think I would pick up the books I am talking about - I have a lot invested in those settings over the years.  I know it would take an amazing setting to tempt me to invest in yet another setting.

 

Doc

[Joe Walsh]

<dreaming>I'd love to see a Harn Hero product line.</dreaming>

[Tasha]

tasha, in a perfect world I would agree with you.  The problem is that while dealing with existing IP, generating a good, solid game world also costs money and there are plenty of problems getting artwork and production values that earn your setting space in a crowded marketplace.

 

Getting Greyhawk and Glorantha fans to play HERO potentially sells rulebooks.  rulebooks broadens the base and possibly opens the door for a market for HERO derived settings.

 

Just looking at myself.  I think I would pick up the books I am talking about - I have a lot invested in those settings over the years.  I know it would take an amazing setting to tempt me to invest in yet another setting.

 

Doc

There is ZERO chance that Hasbro is going to let another company develop one of it's IPs. Esp porting it to another rival system that has zero in common with their Flagship D&D system

 

Glorantha has a better chance. They did authorize a 13th age version(that IS a year overdue on shipping).

 

I look at all of the AMAZING game worlds that have come out of the Savage Worlds developers and ask myself "Why can't Hero engender that innovation and creativity?" From the kickstarters for all of those games. They have all done very well. Including High Space and The Last Parsec for SciFi. Reworkings of Rippers and Accursed did well for horror fantasy. All of those are not licenced worlds.

 

Perhaps Hero needs to work with R.Tal and come out with an updated Champions New Millennium. There was a TON of creativity in the project. A good take on grittier 90's image style comics. Also with lots of supplements that weren't huge monolithic supplements, they were like a step back to the 1st/2nd edition days of the short and to the point supplements. Lots of personalities, good artwork. etc.

 

 

[Sketchpad]

The way to get people who are playing Pathfinder, Greyhawk, or even M&M to play Hero is simple: make a solid book that's a good read, has clear rules and looks nice. This means good graphic design, illustrations that evoke the setting, and excellent organization. Why do I play Pathfinder? Because I enjoy the rules, and love the wealth of info that comes out for the setting. 

[Sean Waters]

You know what I think?

 

If I were to re-write Hero (and let's just assume that is the same thing as 'What would you want to see in a mythical 7th Edition?'), it would definitely be shorter.  It would start with the rules.  The rules of Hero are pretty simple, but we have managed to complicate them unnecessarily - they are really very abstract and they are definitely biased toward an imagined game balance; by that I mean they are not simulationist, they are written as a game.  We can argue (and will...) about whether they should be written as a game or should strive to be more intuitive.  I'm for intuitive, myself.

 

I know you can get all of the rules into 2 sides of A4 or less; we can be a bit more generous than that in terms of padding, but not much.

 

I'd probably change things so there was one core mechanic; by that I mean I would require that all tasks that need to be randomly determined as to success or otherwise would be randomly determined by rolling 3d6, adding bonuses, subtracting penalties and trying to get 10 or more as a result.  I know, high roll good, blasphemy.  Don't care, I'm all about the accessibility (or, if you will, commercial viability) and 'High Roll Good' makes more sense to most people.

 

So, combat, skill success, that sort of thing, all down to the one core mechanic.  Same applies to whether your contact helps you, or your power activates.  One 'success or failure' mechanic.  One.

 

Now I love the Hero damage system, big selling point and also a real way to distinguish the system from other systems.  We'll keep that.  I mean, there will be tweaks, but that's all there will be.

 

I might actually expand it: I don't see why Skills shouldn't do damage, for example.  Say WHAT?  Not actual damage; damage to the task you are attempting.  OK, maybe that is going in the Optional Rules Section.

 

Then I'd have some sample characters and a sample scenario.  Both would be carefully written to reflect the strengths of the system.  They don't even to need to be in the 7E rules, the could be free downloads.  Actually, on a marketing point, the whole thing should probably be a digital download.  Make them pay for the Core Rules, but make it really, really cheap, a couple of dollars, that's it.  That way you can buy a game system and a game you can learn and play on a Friday night for, like $2.50, or whatever.

 

Hell, I'd make the sample scenario and characters REALLY simple, make it practically a board game.  Advertise it as an evening's entertainment for less then the price of a beer.

 

The point is, do it this way, anyone can play any time.  There is no great barrier to entry which, well, has always been Hero's greatest stumbling block.  Even when the whole thing was 100 pages of paperback flimsiness the character creation was the thing that drew us but not the masses.  Too complicated.

 

Right.  Next bit.

 

You 'beat' the first game, you get an updated character sheet, with improvements to the character and you can buy...

 

Anyone watch Doctor Who?  Familiar with the 'fixed points in time' concept?  Well...

 

...you can buy the next scenario instalment, only there are four of them.  They all start at the same point, they all end at the same point, but they are all different.  You only need one, but the point is that they are cheap, another few dollars.  Another Friday night's entertainment.

 

Rinse and repeat. 

 

Sell additional characters for a dollar each.  Online.  Sell printable maps and character cut outs for hardly anything at all.  Micro-transact the hell out of it.  Keep telling them they don't need all the additional stuff to play, they'll buy it anyway.

 

Have (say) 4x4 scenarios in a series (i.e. each scenario has 4 fixed points and 4 paths to those fixed points at each level - am I losing you with this 'fixed point' thing?  OK, that way you can play the same game through several times or join in with another group even if you have played the scenario before.)

 

Right, then you sell the character creation system, and you charge more for it, maybe $10 dollars for an online version, and offer print versions for cost +$10.  Not many people will want it, but some will, and they can then write scenarios and characters and sell them using the same model.  In fact, build a store so that you can do just that: upload purchasable user content and take a 10% agency fee.  That way you maintain a revenue stream, and create a market.

 

The character creation system will only be allowed to contain the words 'unless the GM rules otherwise', or similar phrases once, at the beginning, although you can make it any size font up to 48.  The character building rules will emphasise building characters for games you can sell, not power gaming or other, less polite terms.  I mean, you will be able to create monsters, but you will not want to because they won't make you money.

 

The character creation rules should emphasise the possibility of building anything.  I may dick around with the way we represent advantages and limitations.  I mean. I like fractions and, true story, when I go abroad, I work out what advantage or limitation the local currency is on £ Sterling (cue Brexit plummet jokes) and I can do the currency conversions in my head, all thanks to Hero: BUT MOST PEOPLE DON'T WORK THAT WAY.

 

So, sorry, STAR SYSTEM, and look up tables.  So a star is actually a +1/4 or -1/4, but we don't tell anyone that.  4 stars is a +1 advantage.  If you are old school, do it in your head, if not, use the cost lookup table.

 

Thing is, H7 is not going to be a new system.  Hero is great, robust and works.  It just isn't marketed right.  It is too concerned about power gaming, it does not trust its GMs to do the sensible thing and it is far, far too intimidating to suck people in.

 

You can introduce new genres not as a whole universe (too much effort to learn), but as a new scenario/character set.  Bear in mind, when people pay to see a film they don't moan that they did not have sufficient control over their character.  Think interesting new Netflix series not 'fully realised feat of impressively extreme masturbation'.

 

Hero is, however, great; you get people playing, they will keep on shelling out less than the price of a beer for an entertaining Friday night.  The cost is low enough that most people are not going to bother (I hope) downloading it from torrent sites.

 

Hero will still be in there in all its magnificent (if sometimes stodgy) glory, but what most people will be seeing and playing is the slick end product.  Welcome to the App Generation - never mind all the set-up, just let me play.  Now.  Ooh! - shiny - now I want that, by way of micro transaction.  You could sell an entire equipment book one item at a time, just like a real shop.  Make it stupidly cheap, because electrons don't cost much.

 

If this is going to work we go for volume rather than high cost per unit.

 

Anyway, that's what I think.

 

WHAT?

[steriaca]

Here is something for the 3d6+bonus-penalties<10 system. Each 5 points of a stat which applies to the roll, gain a +1 bonus to the roll.

 

As for the character creation system, skills should always cost 1 point to be able to use it, and +1 point for each +1 bonus. OCV and DCV are now skills to buy.

 

And powers? Always cost 1 per level as defense and utility powers, and always multiples of 5 for attack powers. No manditary limitations on powers (Im looking at you Hand-To-Hand Attack).

 

End.

[Tasha]

tasha, in a perfect world I would agree with you.  The problem is that while dealing with existing IP, generating a good, solid game world also costs money and there are plenty of problems getting artwork and production values that earn your setting space in a crowded marketplace.

 

Getting Greyhawk and Glorantha fans to play HERO potentially sells rulebooks.  rulebooks broadens the base and possibly opens the door for a market for HERO derived settings.

 

Just looking at myself.  I think I would pick up the books I am talking about - I have a lot invested in those settings over the years.  I know it would take an amazing setting to tempt me to invest in yet another setting.

 

Doc

Artwork costs money no matter what IP you use. Unless it's an IP your already own and artwork you already have the rights to. Which I believe is the case with CMN. Most Licences don't come with artwork. You are supposed to generate your own. Now this might vary between Licences (ie PS238 was allowed to use Comic art but I am sure that was negotiated in the contract). Greyhawk really only means something to gamer grognards (ie people over 40) the last time it appeared in a publication was with D&D 3.0 which was over 15 years ago at least. Glorantha really has the same problem. You aren't going to attract new players with either. You might get some converts who played Champions back in the day, but the OSG folk are already playing their RQ and D&D Clones.

 

 

[TheDarkness]

You know what I think?

 

If I were to re-write Hero (and let's just assume that is the same thing as 'What would you want to see in a mythical 7th Edition?'), it would definitely be shorter.  It would start with the rules.  The rules of Hero are pretty simple, but we have managed to complicate them unnecessarily - they are really very abstract and they are definitely biased toward an imagined game balance; by that I mean they are not simulationist, they are written as a game.  We can argue (and will...) about whether they should be written as a game or should strive to be more intuitive.  I'm for intuitive, myself.

 

I know you can get all of the rules into 2 sides of A4 or less; we can be a bit more generous than that in terms of padding, but not much.

 

I'd probably change things so there was one core mechanic; by that I mean I would require that all tasks that need to be randomly determined as to success or otherwise would be randomly determined by rolling 3d6, adding bonuses, subtracting penalties and trying to get 10 or more as a result.  I know, high roll good, blasphemy.  Don't care, I'm all about the accessibility (or, if you will, commercial viability) and 'High Roll Good' makes more sense to most people.

 

So, combat, skill success, that sort of thing, all down to the one core mechanic.  Same applies to whether your contact helps you, or your power activates.  One 'success or failure' mechanic.  One.

 

Now I love the Hero damage system, big selling point and also a real way to distinguish the system from other systems.  We'll keep that.  I mean, there will be tweaks, but that's all there will be.

 

I might actually expand it: I don't see why Skills shouldn't do damage, for example.  Say WHAT?  Not actual damage; damage to the task you are attempting.  OK, maybe that is going in the Optional Rules Section.

 

Then I'd have some sample characters and a sample scenario.  Both would be carefully written to reflect the strengths of the system.  They don't even to need to be in the 7E rules, the could be free downloads.  Actually, on a marketing point, the whole thing should probably be a digital download.  Make them pay for the Core Rules, but make it really, really cheap, a couple of dollars, that's it.  That way you can buy a game system and a game you can learn and play on a Friday night for, like $2.50, or whatever.

 

Hell, I'd make the sample scenario and characters REALLY simple, make it practically a board game.  Advertise it as an evening's entertainment for less then the price of a beer.

 

The point is, do it this way, anyone can play any time.  There is no great barrier to entry which, well, has always been Hero's greatest stumbling block.  Even when the whole thing was 100 pages of paperback flimsiness the character creation was the thing that drew us but not the masses.  Too complicated.

 

Right.  Next bit.

 

You 'beat' the first game, you get an updated character sheet, with improvements to the character and you can buy...

 

Anyone watch Doctor Who?  Familiar with the 'fixed points in time' concept?  Well...

 

...you can buy the next scenario instalment, only there are four of them.  They all start at the same point, they all end at the same point, but they are all different.  You only need one, but the point is that they are cheap, another few dollars.  Another Friday night's entertainment.

 

Rinse and repeat. 

 

Sell additional characters for a dollar each.  Online.  Sell printable maps and character cut outs for hardly anything at all.  Micro-transact the hell out of it.  Keep telling them they don't need all the additional stuff to play, they'll buy it anyway.

 

Have (say) 4x4 scenarios in a series (i.e. each scenario has 4 fixed points and 4 paths to those fixed points at each level - am I losing you with this 'fixed point' thing?  OK, that way you can play the same game through several times or join in with another group even if you have played the scenario before.)

 

Right, then you sell the character creation system, and you charge more for it, maybe $10 dollars for an online version, and offer print versions for cost +$10.  Not many people will want it, but some will, and they can then write scenarios and characters and sell them using the same model.  In fact, build a store so that you can do just that: upload purchasable user content and take a 10% agency fee.  That way you maintain a revenue stream, and create a market.

 

The character creation system will only be allowed to contain the words 'unless the GM rules otherwise', or similar phrases once, at the beginning, although you can make it any size font up to 48.  The character building rules will emphasise building characters for games you can sell, not power gaming or other, less polite terms.  I mean, you will be able to create monsters, but you will not want to because they won't make you money.

 

The character creation rules should emphasise the possibility of building anything.  I may dick around with the way we represent advantages and limitations.  I mean. I like fractions and, true story, when I go abroad, I work out what advantage or limitation the local currency is on £ Sterling (cue Brexit plummet jokes) and I can do the currency conversions in my head, all thanks to Hero: BUT MOST PEOPLE DON'T WORK THAT WAY.

 

So, sorry, STAR SYSTEM, and look up tables.  So a star is actually a +1/4 or -1/4, but we don't tell anyone that.  4 stars is a +1 advantage.  If you are old school, do it in your head, if not, use the cost lookup table.

 

Thing is, H7 is not going to be a new system.  Hero is great, robust and works.  It just isn't marketed right.  It is too concerned about power gaming, it does not trust its GMs to do the sensible thing and it is far, far too intimidating to suck people in.

 

You can introduce new genres not as a whole universe (too much effort to learn), but as a new scenario/character set.  Bear in mind, when people pay to see a film they don't moan that they did not have sufficient control over their character.  Think interesting new Netflix series not 'fully realised feat of impressively extreme masturbation'.

 

Hero is, however, great; you get people playing, they will keep on shelling out less than the price of a beer for an entertaining Friday night.  The cost is low enough that most people are not going to bother (I hope) downloading it from torrent sites.

 

Hero will still be in there in all its magnificent (if sometimes stodgy) glory, but what most people will be seeing and playing is the slick end product.  Welcome to the App Generation - never mind all the set-up, just let me play.  Now.  Ooh! - shiny - now I want that, by way of micro transaction.  You could sell an entire equipment book one item at a time, just like a real shop.  Make it stupidly cheap, because electrons don't cost much.

 

If this is going to work we go for volume rather than high cost per unit.

 

Anyway, that's what I think.

 

WHAT?

THIS!

 

In case I'm not clear, I agree with a lot of what you are saying.

 

My one caveat(I really need to include that in my member ID, The Caveat of Darkness, perhaps?), but I think one mentality that needs to be moved away from is 'the character creation process is daunting, let's turn all these adventures and supplements into a chance to teach the new people how fun we find it'. WE find it fun. THEY might simply enjoy the gameplay from that part of the system, using prebuilts from build nerds. Or they may enjoy making characters from a selected list of builds, but have no interest in going so deep in the mechanics they're spending their listless hours screaming to the sweltering pits of hell at whatever demon made it impossibly difficult to design their combination walkie talkie/flashlight.There is nothing wrong with that, let the gamer play at the level they are interested in.

 

Back to your point.

 

I referenced earlier the idea of prebuilt systems with their own settings and letting there either be a template for Hero Designer that was simply for that prebuilt, not in hero speak(but whose entries, the sheets automatically recognized, oh, First degree Firebolt is this build), and made that option cheap, with the full hero designer being relatively more expensive.

 

Even when using the full system, there are a host of simple electronic resources that would be useful for most Hero gamers. The advantage, for those products, is that the system is fairly math intensive compared to many, and computers simply make math easier, that's kind of the point.

 

I  have actually thought that a small tabletop game, Duel of Champions or some such thing, might be viable and a bit smaller of a project. Design your champion(from a list of potential prebuilt powers, first choose, will I be a brick, a speedster, an energy projector, each has its list of prebuilts), choose a scenario that determines what is available and how terrain is placed/drawn, then duel away, make your opponent unconscious or drive them off the table edge and you win. I sincerely think, for supers gameplay, the first time a player causes really good knockback should be considered an important formative step in their, admittedly nerdy, life. Knock an enemy across a table, and they will probably want to do it again.

 

Set in a city(I think Kansas City, its downtown would be an awesome fighting venue for low-level supers) at the advent of supers. For unknown reasons, that city had a tremendous number of powered individuals compared to elsewhere in the country, and the resulting chaos led to the evacuation of the city. For a period of time before the rebuilding of the city center, it became the wild west for supers, with many seeking to make their name or take someone down a notch in the near constant duels.

 

The same could be done with a simple gladiatorial combat game for fantasy. Super simple prebuilt character designs(kept the more simple by the fact that, even for stats, the package deals are the main thing, to bypass min-maxing, so that +5 STR is the option, etc), only the simplest world building necessary, can be plugged into a larger product, but does not require the entire section on building Hero characters, essentially is a shopping list, the combat rules, some personages one might meet in the pits, and done.

 

Each with cheaply downloadable and printable cards for scenery, etc.

 

Each then could be used to refer tantalizingly to the larger world that, of course, requires buying the Valdarian Age game, etc.

[TheDarkness]

Artwork costs money no matter what IP you use. Unless it's an IP your already own and artwork you already have the rights to. Which I believe is the case with CMN. Most Licences don't come with artwork. You are supposed to generate your own. Now this might vary between Licences (ie PS238 was allowed to use Comic art but I am sure that was negotiated in the contract). Greyhawk really only means something to gamer grognards (ie people over 40) the last time it appeared in a publication was with D&D 3.0 which was over 15 years ago at least. Glorantha really has the same problem. You aren't going to attract new players with either. You might get some converts who played Champions back in the day, but the OSG folk are already playing their RQ and D&D Clones.

 

 

Exactly. Though Greyhawk at least sounds like something the potential customer could relate to. Glorantha is meaningless to potential new customers. Harn is as well. This is not to say that those worlds might not be viable for marketing, but that they need a name that customers will potentially be drawn to, and customers beyond just the experienced gamer. At best, Harn should be in a subtitle for such customers.

 

If the name could potentially be placed in a pharmaceutical ad for ED medications, it shouldn't be the main title.

 

Glorantha may cause severe gelatinization of the lower regions for some users.

 

Ask your doctor or qualified medical professional before using Glorantha.

[Tasha]

That's why Chaosium calls it RuneQuest and bases the game in Glorantha. They also have HeroQuest for a specific kind of adventuring IIRC.

[TheDarkness]

That's why Chaosium calls it RuneQuest and bases the game in Glorantha. They also have HeroQuest for a specific kind of adventuring IIRC.

Ah, totally forgot about those titles.