Hero System Lucky 7th Edition?

[Tasha]

I agree with this. The system is not itself a setting book, but there is a lot of implied setting. It's a lot different than a ruleset in which one could make elves dwarves, magic, etc., but what sort one makes is left to the gamer in a system where they could go almost any direction.

 

Not in response to your post, just generally speaking now:

 

But, almost any definition along these lines pretty much WILL make it a game based off of Hero. The moment it is defined what an elf is, what a ranger can do, we are far afield of the base Hero system, and should recognize it and use it to our advantage.

 

Having more adventures is good and fine, but does not solve the key issue. I don't know any groups that only play prepackaged adventures, I don't think I ever have. If making games for one's group is too time consuming for most gamers, no amount of advertising is going to get past this problem. This is why Hero Designer and the Combat Manager are a very good idea for Hero, there is simply no reason not to use technology to make people's lives easier who ARE using the system, and I really feel they should utilize more approaches like this. Likewise, a simpler, modular system based off of the main system adds to the value of the overall system by way of making building faster for GMs in general, leading to more people able to play.

 

Everyone says that but Paizo and PEG (Savage Worlds) base their business around selling adventures. Both sell tons of adventures. There are very successful SWs licencees who also primarily sell adventures. They also Sell supplements, but the adventures sell as well as the rest.

 

As we Detailed above you sell worlds with everything defined. The book would mention that the Full rules can be used to customize and add abilities to the campaign book. Also have a free supplemental document that can be downloaded that includes the breakdown of every ability/gun etc that is in the supplement. For groups that want to customize,

[Cantriped]

It might just be a matter of semantics, or a side effect of growing up using DnD/Pathfinder, but I've never considered the crunchy bits (like spells, items, even monsters) to really be part of "World Building". Certainly every good campaign setting needs them... but I've seen plenty of bad campaign settings that had plenty of good example material, yet remained bad campaign settings, and good campaign settings that didn't have enough good example material, yet still felt like good campaign settings.

I suppose I simply judge the value of a Campaign Setting more heavily on how well it describes itself, and how it integrates all of that crunch into its flavor. Admittedly, a solid set of examples is vital to making any Campaign Setting using the HERO System successful, because players and GMs need to be able to "plug & play" it... otherwise why bother spending money on somebody else's ideas, especially if I still have to do all the "hard work" myself before I can try it out?

[Tasha]

 A good quickstart would be, A Short adventure.  Pregen PC's up to  Antagonists. all in single column abbreviated, Hero System in 2 Pages that included basic skill and ability writeups.

See this for a good format
https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/peg-freebies/SWTestDriveTheWildHunt.pdf

[Tasha]

Oh PS, I wish that Hero would create stuff with the same production Values of PEG. They prove that you don't have to be Hasbro or Paizo to have beautiful books.

[Tasha]

So I was looking at Champions 5e at "The Superhero Gallery" section of the book pg 243 - 287

 

It covers the many Superheroic Archetypes and has great Stat, Power and Skill packages. It's really as plug and play as hero can get. I am thinking about giving that section to my players and having them use that to build their PCs. It seems like that would be a great Section to head up a Champions Plot Point Campaign book. With the Hero System in 2 Pages plus some extra bits to explain how the powers work.

[Cantriped]

Champions 6th also has a darn fine Superhero Gallery, and there is an expansion document for it available in the Store, I show them to my players as a starting point when I'm running Champions. It is very close to plug & play. I think it took my wife longer to transcribe the game elements onto a character sheet than it took to decide what to build.

[Sketchpad]

If there were a 7th ed Hero System created, I would like to see the following:

 

• As the initial release, a new edition of Champions that streamlines the Hero System a bit, while also staying true to it's history. This would be a single rulebook more akin to the 4th ed BBB then the CC of 6th ed, with a full cover cover, nicely designed interior pages (possibly full color), and with a slight bit of Champions Universe setting info ingrained as examples. The book would be hardcover and be about as big as other rule books these days. 

 

• On the above's heels would be two additional books: Champions Universe, a fully detailed campaign setting with intro adventure, and Enemies 1, the first of many villain books. Both would be hardcover books with similar design to their rule book. CU's beginning adventure would set up the potential for new "adventure path" style books and, potentially, organized play modules. 

 

• After those, two more releases would come out, both softcover, called Champions Players Guide and Champions Campaign Guide. The CPG would bring out some advanced rules for character creation, advice on how to make a good character, and archetypes for several "comic book style" heroes. The CCG, on the other hand, would give advanced advice on how to run a game, cover comic book ages in brief, and expand on villain creation rules and how to create an adventure. 

 

• Along the way, a Champions Hero Box would be released that would contain three softcover books, a double sided map, some pawns and a set of Hero Dice. This would be used as an introductory game, as well as a retailer box to help set up organized play. 

 

• Other pawn sets would follow along with adventures. Each set would contain a small adventure and adventure hooks with the several cardboard figures. Some would be themed with the adventures being put out, while others would be a preview of things to come. For example: a Viper set might include a revamped Viper's Nest, include a horde of Viper figures, some generic heroes figures, and a map of the area needed. 

 

• Future releases would involve new Enemies books (with old and new villains), Organization books (Viper, Primus, etc.), Campaign Books (Cosmic, Golden Age, Teen, etc). All books would follow the template of the initial release, and include new rules as needed. If popular, books focusing on power sources could also be released, but they'd be smaller than the Ultimate books and offer advanced power ideas (as well as alternate archetypes). 

 

Spin, freshen and release for other genres. All setting books would be tied a bit to a setting. So instead of Fantasy Hero, we might get "Heroica: The Fantasy Roleplaying Game", or instead of Dark Champions/Modern Hero, it might be "Danger International", etc. Maybe each year would see something new as far as setting/genre books, with only a few releases for past books. So year two, we get Heroica and its books (Grimoire, Heroica Campaign Guide, Bestiary, etc.), but might get a new Enemies book for Champions, a Champions module and a new pawn set.

[Hugh Neilson]

Never said that Golarion wasn't, but it's not really introduced unless you buy supplements. They do show the deities of Golarion as an example for Clerics and Paladins. Really no other part of Golarion is in the core rulebooks. Just like D&D 3.x and 4.x don't come with a built in world. They include the gods of first Greyhawk then Forgotten Realms, but zero detail about those worlds is in the books. Everything is kept generic so the rules could be used for any D&D like game world.

The "setting" is far more than geography. We know the setting is medieval. We know magic is common, and pretty well known, and commoditized. We know the religions and the moral codes. We know the different types of magic - arcane and divine; vancian; metamagic; leveled; schools of magic. We know magic items are pretty easily created, and are a commodity. We know that many intelligent raced coexist, and we know their moral codes. We know that a host of magical creatures exist, and have much of the planar cosmology, once we read a Monsters book.

 

Starting with Hero, we have not even set the dials and decided whether hit locations will be used.

 

We don't need the names of rivers and oceans, or nations, their capitals and their rulers to have much of "a setting". I would not include geography in a "Powered by Hero" core rule book beyond enough to set an introductory adventure, and provide some NPCs tp illustrate the mechanics and flavour of the game.

 

I would want a Game world in a book that included EVERY thing you would need to play. Magic Spells, Super Powers, Psychic Powers etc. Some sample critters and NPCs would be great. It would also be ok to rely on the HS Bestiary for more critters.

I would be looking for magic spells in a game featuring magic spells. I would not be looking for these in a Supers book, but I would be looking for Super Powers in the guise of Magic Spells, Psychic Powers and so much more. But they would not be the same Psychic Powers I would expect in an X-Files game, or a Psionic Sci Fi game. Sample creatures, supervillains, agents, etc. as relevant to the chosen game, with other supplements providing a larger selection (probably getting higher power too - the basic fantasy game does not need an ancient Wyrm the starting PCs have no hope of successfully interacting with).

[Roter Baron]

"Heroica" sounds rather silly - there MUST be a better name for a GERO fantasy game. But in general I agree that calling each and every genre-book "This-and-That HERO" wasn't the best idea, even if the aim was to create an easily recognizable brand of games (HERO on the outside, HERO inside).

 

"Danger International", "Justice Inc." breathe way more fun and life than "Modern HERO" or "Pulp HERO" - and Dark Champions is a misnomer for a game that is not vigilante crimefighting. There must be some kind of Champions in it. James Bond is not a "dark champion", "THe Wildgeese" is not a "dark champions" movie.

 

So let's see:

Modern - Danger International

Pulp - Justice Inc.

Superheroes - Champions

Fantasy - The Age of Heroes, Heroes & Half-Orcs, Empires of Wonder etc.(depends on the world that is presented)

Urban Fantasy - New London Tales

Horror - Blood Moon Rising, Under a Blood-Red Moon, Dial "H" for Horror, In the Darkest of Nights

SciFi - To the Stars and Beyond

 

And each with the label - Powered by HERO.

[PhantomGM2602]

The main issue is math. There is simply too much numbers crunching in combat AND character design for most gamers, imo. I think that Hero could benefit from it's push to use technology in gaming by way of the designer and such. A free version based off of simple standards that came with the game would work well, so a Fantasy Hero designer, in which all the choices are quite standard and NOT termed in Hero technical terms, Sci-Fi Hero designer, Super Hero designer, etc.

 

Additionally, perhaps less of a focus on worlds as the basis for the games that old players are nostalgic about. And I'm really not sure of the value of the generic names for editions. Champions is a well known classic superhero game. I'm just not sure that the Hero name adds much value to the editions for fantasy, sci-fi, pulp, etc.

Also they might want to intro a D12 version to make it easier on us GMs. As for HD they might want to include all genres into the program instead   of creating series of character packs. Just burn the packs onto CD rom or a memory card and make it way more easy than downloading it directly. 

[eepjr24]

Also they might want to intro a D12 version to make it easier on us GMs. As for HD they might want to include all genres into the program instead   of creating series of character packs. Just burn the packs onto CD rom or a memory card and make it way more easy than downloading it directly. 

That would get a strong NO vote out of me. D12 would ruin the probability curve, which is part of what makes Hero great.

 

As to the HD bit, I would support that as long as we could get enough folks to buy it for it to be worth the coding effort that would need to go into it. People always underestimate how difficult coding is, especially now with all the "public domain" software out there, they expect it for free.

 

- E

[Tasha]

The main issue is math. There is simply too much numbers crunching in combat AND character design for most gamers, imo. I think that Hero could benefit from it's push to use technology in gaming by way of the designer and such. A free version based off of simple standards that came with the game would work well, so a Fantasy Hero designer, in which all the choices are quite standard and NOT termed in Hero technical terms, Sci-Fi Hero designer, Super Hero designer, etc.

 

Additionally, perhaps less of a focus on worlds as the basis for the games that old players are nostalgic about. And I'm really not sure of the value of the generic names for editions. Champions is a well known classic superhero game. I'm just not sure that the Hero name adds much value to the editions for fantasy, sci-fi, pulp, etc.

 

 

The in play math is pretty easy and similar math is encountered by D&D/Pathfinder players all of the time. Finding out if you hit can be a bit of an issue, but that's one thing that Roll High would fix. 

[TheDarkness]

The in play math is pretty easy and similar math is encountered by D&D/Pathfinder players all of the time. Finding out if you hit can be a bit of an issue, but that's one thing that Roll High would fix. 

I think the frequency of different modifiers that many players make use of in Hero seems higher to me, especially in regards to things like CSLs, but I may be overestimating. I was thinking that in combination with builds being really time intensive as the big issues, but in-play is nowhere near as problematic as character and game creation for players who aren't already playing the game.

 

Out of curiosity, you talked about thinking some stats should be dropped altogether, what stats do you feel should be?

[Hugh Neilson]

nd each with the label - Powered by HERO.

Evocative game names with a "Powered by HERO" logo makes sense to me. Way back when Fantasy Hero was first developed, there was a "name that game" request in the Hero newsletter, with the caveat no alliterative X & Y name. They ended up with Fantasy Hero because no one came up with anything better. It sounds generic, and it was generic. If the game does not have the "hook" to lead to an evocative name, will it hook the gaming community? Based on history, that's a solid "NO".

 

 

I think the frequency of different modifiers that many players make use of in Hero seems higher to me, especially in regards to things like CSLs, but I may be overestimating. I was thinking that in combination with builds being really time intensive as the big issues, but in-play is nowhere near as problematic as character and game creation for players who aren't already playing the game.

In play? You want to attack, so you need your STR or DEX modifier (HTH or ranged), remembering if there is a buffing or debuffing effect modifying that stat (say, Barbarian Rage, spell, magic item), or you may have taken ability damage, there may be a masterwork or magic bonus (remember, they do not stack), are you under a condition which modifies your roll, is there a spell that impacts to hit or damage (don't forget the Bless, Prayer or Bard singing), are you affected by any negative levels, did you use a Feat that changes your roll (Power Attack, Monkey Grip)?

 

All this before we consider the impact of any maneuvers (CSL or martial arts in Hero; grapples or disarms in d20; 2 weapon fighting, multiple attacks) or situational modifiers (cover, concealment, being prone) which both games have. In game math is way more common in d20. Hero has more math in character creation, unless we include totaling the word count in the three dozen splatbooks you selected abilities from, much less the number you searched through.

[TheDarkness]

Evocative game names with a "Powered by HERO" logo makes sense to me. Way back when Fantasy Hero was first developed, there was a "name that game" request in the Hero newsletter, with the caveat no alliterative X & Y name. They ended up with Fantasy Hero because no one came up with anything better. It sounds generic, and it was generic. If the game does not have the "hook" to lead to an evocative name, will it hook the gaming community? Based on history, that's a solid "NO".

 

 

 

In play? You want to attack, so you need your STR or DEX modifier (HTH or ranged), remembering if there is a buffing or debuffing effect modifying that stat (say, Barbarian Rage, spell, magic item), or you may have taken ability damage, there may be a masterwork or magic bonus (remember, they do not stack), are you under a condition which modifies your roll, is there a spell that impacts to hit or damage (don't forget the Bless, Prayer or Bard singing), are you affected by any negative levels, did you use a Feat that changes your roll (Power Attack, Monkey Grip)?

 

All this before we consider the impact of any maneuvers (CSL or martial arts in Hero; grapples or disarms in d20; 2 weapon fighting, multiple attacks) or situational modifiers (cover, concealment, being prone) which both games have. In game math is way more common in d20. Hero has more math in character creation, unless we include totaling the word count in the three dozen splatbooks you selected abilities from, much less the number you searched through.

I get what you are saying. However, I think one difference that makes a difference is that in Pathfinder or other iterations of D&D, the DM can pretty much guess, well, you're a thief, did you remember this modifier? This skill? Etc.

 

In Hero, there is no guessing, different characters could have any combination. It's an advantage and a disadvantage, I suppose.

[TheDarkness]

I think, in regards to names, one thing to keep in mind is that what we are nostalgic about is probably not the best names. Names often become dated, and if we want new players, we can't count on a nostalgia they don't have.

 

This is also why the sort of hint of setting that Hugh has been talking about is, I think, a good idea. It gives something to name. We all think the system is lovely because of playing it, a few of us also because we're system nerds. But, if new players are to be drawn in, most are more likely to be drawn in by the play. Almost everyone jumps in by saying "let's make characters", and I think that is the step where most get lost. However, they won't even make it that far if it's named after a product that speaks to their dad's nostalgia more than their interests.

[Tasha]

I think the frequency of different modifiers that many players make use of in Hero seems higher to me, especially in regards to things like CSLs, but I may be overestimating. I was thinking that in combination with builds being really time intensive as the big issues, but in-play is nowhere near as problematic as character and game creation for players who aren't already playing the game.

 

Out of curiosity, you talked about thinking some stats should be dropped altogether, what stats do you feel should be?

Assuming no over changes to other systems. Dex and Ego could be totally merged into OCV, DCV and OMCV, DMCV respectively.

 

You could also probably fold Con into Body. Con really doesn't do much in the system ex get power drained and prevent you from getting stunned. 

 

Then your leftover stats would be expressed by their bonus to a stat or skill roll. AKA current stat /5. Every pip in the stat would be 5pts. All stats begin at 2. (yeah even CV)

 

If you change the way mental attacks work using a system similar to the way damage works. Ego could stay and become the "body" of mental attacks, and a Stat Added that was the "Stun" for mental powers. Which would allow mental powers to scale down (which they really don't currently), also it would allow for lasting effects from Mental powers (and Presence, which would be a "Stun only" ability).

 

I detail this out more a few pages back in this thread. Can't remember right now everything. Working on less than 4hrs of bad sleep currently. 

[Doc Democracy]

Would you prefer to see a new setting you had never heard of or a supplement that facilitated you to play a setting you loved?  I think I would buy "A HERO in Greyhawk" before I would buy any new setting that has the potential of not attracting any future support or being no better than a homebrew (irony I know as Greyhawk was indeed just a homebrew... :-) ).

 

Best part of this is that it would allow the demonstration of the power of the system without the need to develop and support huge campaigns etc  I can continue to buy Greyhawk modules and use my HERO in Greyhawk to convert it for play using HERO.

 

Doc

[Tasha]

The problem with "A Hero in X Published world" is that pesky IP thingie that gets publishers sued or at the least ceased and Desisted. Any "homage" to a published IP will end up looking like the Author's idea of the world.

 

[Scott Baker]

The problem with "A Hero in X Published world" is that pesky IP thingie that gets publishers sued or at the least ceased and Desisted. Any "homage" to a published IP will end up looking like the Author's idea of the world.

 

 

Not to mention that it sounds more like a conversion guide than an actual setting they way Doc D presented it.

[Sketchpad]

I think, in regards to names, one thing to keep in mind is that what we are nostalgic about is probably not the best names. Names often become dated, and if we want new players, we can't count on a nostalgia they don't have.

 

This is also why the sort of hint of setting that Hugh has been talking about is, I think, a good idea. It gives something to name. We all think the system is lovely because of playing it, a few of us also because we're system nerds. But, if new players are to be drawn in, most are more likely to be drawn in by the play. Almost everyone jumps in by saying "let's make characters", and I think that is the step where most get lost. However, they won't even make it that far if it's named after a product that speaks to their dad's nostalgia more than their interests.

 

For me, it's not a nostalgia thing. Rather it's a "We have this, let's use it" thing. Games like Danger International and Justice Inc were fun, sure. But why not use them and expand on them? DI could be the agency that the espionage/military game is built around for example.

 

Another thing that we need, I believe, is a new Adventurer's Club magazine. Whether print or an e-zine, a well-done magazine that could publish new characters, adventures and even reviews would be pretty handy. 

[IndianaJoe3]

Another thing that we need, I believe, is a new Adventurer's Club magazine. Whether print or an e-zine, a well-done magazine that could publish new characters, adventures and even reviews would be pretty handy. 

 

What Hero needs is content. Publishing a new edition without any (new) supporting material doesn't get us anywhere.

[Amorkca]

For me, it's not a nostalgia thing. Rather it's a "We have this, let's use it" thing. Games like Danger International and Justice Inc were fun, sure. But why not use them and expand on them? DI could be the agency that the espionage/military game is built around for example.

 

Another thing that we need, I believe, is a new Adventurer's Club magazine. Whether print or an e-zine, a well-done magazine that could publish new characters, adventures and even reviews would be pretty handy. 

 

Have you looked at the Digital Hero stuff in the store?  Its older (5e) but its got lots of things there...

[steriaca]

Have you looked at the Digital Hero stuff in the store? Its older (5e) but its got lots of things there...

Thats the problem. We want new stuff from Hero. New stuff. Digital Hero is old.

 

We want them to publish regularly again.

[steriaca]

Have you looked at the Digital Hero stuff in the store? Its older (5e) but its got lots of things there...

Thats the problem. We want new stuff from Hero. New stuff. Digital Hero is old.

 

We want them to publish regularly again.