Hero System Lucky 7th Edition?

[zslane]

What we could do is develop our ideas into a product. THAT is what we could do.

 

By all means.

 

It won't really raise Hero System's visibility or promulgate significant growth of its player base, but that shouldn't stop you. Just understand that anything worthy of the title "7th edition" needs to be profoundly grander in scope than anything this forum community will ever develop on its own.

 

Of course, if "we" don't believe in a 7th edition at all, then I think a different thread title would be appropriate.

[steriaca]

Is there a way to edit a title?

[Tasha]

By all means.

 

It won't really raise Hero System's visibility or promulgate significant growth of its player base, but that shouldn't stop you. Just understand that anything worthy of the title "7th edition" needs to be profoundly grander in scope than anything this forum community will ever develop on its own.

 

Of course, if "we" don't believe in a 7th edition at all, then I think a different thread title would be appropriate.

 

I don't see how disagreeing with the premise of the OP requires a name change of the thread. Whatever.

 

We spend a LOT of time discussing what HERO needs to do to grow the player base. Yes there are things they can do, things they have probably already thought about. They people who own DOJ and IPR have been in the industry for a long time. What they would need to do those things is money. Yeah, chicken and the egg scenario.

 

So as players and GMs there ARE things WE can do to increase the playerbase. One way is for use to run games for our friends. Run games at our FLGS and at conventions. Volunteer to run demo games at conventions where Hero is going to. Talk to other content creators (people who create multi platform game supplements) ask them for hero support. Let us know here if there's some exciting product that you think is cool and that the creators might be willing to do a hero version of. We also need to buy those third party products that are created for hero.

 

There's no magical wand that is going to create more players. It really comes down to us in the fanbase to get other players playing the game. Word of mouth and good experiences is how every other system has grown. That word of mouth and good experiences HAVE to come from us. No one else is going to do it for us.

[zslane]

We spend a LOT of time discussing what HERO needs to do to grow the player base.

 

Yes, I am aware. I am also keenly aware that none of it ever amounts to anything (of significant measure). And not because this community isn't passionate or, in some cases, creatively talented. But because of the sheer enormity of the task and the scale of the marketplace inertia that must be overcome, to say nothing of the complete absence of constructive leadership and effective action in this matter on the part of the game system's owner. All of which is either grossly underestimated or willfully ignored by most folks in these discussions.

 

If this community really wants to do something of practical benefit for the Hero System (and its future), it should organize, find investors, incorporate, and acquire the game system. Then, and only then, will these discussions will have relevancy. Until then, I predict this subject will pop up every couple of months, and like always, fade away with nothing of significance to show for it.

[Nolgroth]

Yes, I am aware. I am also keenly aware that none of it ever amounts to anything (of significant measure). And not because this community isn't passionate or, in some cases, creatively talented. But because of the sheer enormity of the task and the scale of the marketplace inertia that must be overcome, to say nothing of the complete absence of constructive leadership and effective action in this matter on the part of the game system's owner. All of which is either grossly underestimated or willfully ignored by most folks in these discussions.

 

If this community really wants to do something of practical benefit for the Hero System (and its future), it should organize, find investors, incorporate, and acquire the game system. Then, and only then, will these discussions will have relevancy. Until then, I predict this subject will pop up every couple of months, and like always, fade away with nothing of significance to show for it.

 

Don't forget costs. I looked into printing costs and while I might have found better deals with more intensive research, I had a bit of sticker shock. 

 

As to the "every couple of months" comment, a project of any significant scope will take time to plan, develop, edit and finalize. Since I doubt any of us can do everything (art, cartography, layout, writing, editing, marketing, etc.), it will take a team effort to produce something that is a quality product. So yeah, a couple of months is not going to allow for enough time for production. Unless we can recruit Steve Long.

[Tasha]

Don't forget costs. I looked into printing costs and while I might have found better deals with more intensive research, I had a bit of sticker shock. 

 

As to the "every couple of months" comment, a project of any significant scope will take time to plan, develop, edit and finalize. Since I doubt any of us can do everything (art, cartography, layout, writing, editing, marketing, etc.), it will take a team effort to produce something that is a quality product. So yeah, a couple of months is not going to allow for enough time for production. Unless we can recruit Steve Long.

 

All of the good RPG Kickstarters started months before the Kickstarter was even announced. Getting the manuscript more or less together. Once the bulk of the writing is complete, then comes the Kickstarter where you get the money to Layout, buy Artwork, and Pay for printing the book(s). Any additional books added because of stretch goals would have to be written, laid out, artwork purchased etc. Printing is expensive and the best deals are for printing a thousand books. That ignores things like actually playtesting a product which I don't hear Hero doing much anymore. Perhaps it's because of their text book approach to writing books. 

 

Another good thing that a Kickstarter has been invaluable for is gauging interest in a particular product. ie Steve Long's ill fated Mythic Hero, which was a Hero System treatment of the Gods and goddesses of Mythology. It totally failed in it's Kickstarter. Which seems to have deflated Steve's sails for creating other Hero System stuff. 

[megaplayboy]

I still hold out hope that MH will get published, but I think it will take a more polished/finished promotional campaign--more art samples, write-ups for a few gods, etc.

[TheDarkness]

By all means.

 

It won't really raise Hero System's visibility or promulgate significant growth of its player base, but that shouldn't stop you. Just understand that anything worthy of the title "7th edition" needs to be profoundly grander in scope than anything this forum community will ever develop on its own.

 

Of course, if "we" don't believe in a 7th edition at all, then I think a different thread title would be appropriate.

The discussion seems to be at the system level, which would be necessary. And not really a redefinition of the system, though I think some aspects, that would be advisable. Considering that that kind of work is not really done by some arcane and mystical cabal of hundreds, but mostly some nerds who are gaming anyway, I don't see the harm in discussing it, especially on a forum run by the people that make the game.

 

In honesty, though, the discussion, for those who think it's a good idea, would be better served in a series of conversations elsewhere that wouldn't drop into a sea of questions about how to build a flashlight.

[mallet]

Like other people have mentioned I think there should be a very stripped down, setting specific version of the rules put out. 

 

For example you are playing a game and your character wants to buy a gun. It should be as simple as:

 

GUN: 2d6 RKA, Ammo: 6; cost: 10pts

 

OPTIONS:

 

+1d6 damage, cost :7pts

Armor Piercing, cost: 3pts per level

Auto Fire (2 shots per round), cost: 3pts. 

+1 OCV to hit, cost: 3pts. 

 

So I final write up on the sheet could be:

 

GUN 2d6 RKA, Armor Piercing, Autofire, Ammo: 6; total cost: 16 pts. 

 

and that is it. That's all that is needed to play.

 

Someone who has the Tool Kit rules would know that is is actually built like: 

 

Gun:  RKA 2d6, Autofire (2 shots; +1/4), Armor Piercing (+1/4) (45 Active Points); OAF (-1), 6 Charges(-3/4); Real Weapon (-1/4) Actual Cost: 15pts

 

But whatever. No need for all that extra crunch and the 1 pt difference (from rounding in hero designer) is nothing, especially if you aren't super crunchy or min/maxing. And if you want that, then use the tool kit rules, but for the rest of the RPG world clean and simple is the way to go. 

 

I know that a gun is an obvious, accessible focus. I know that it needs to be maintained and needs ammo to shoot. I don't need all that spelled out on the sheet when it is already in the book and just common sense. 

[TheDarkness]

Like other people have mentioned I think there should be a very stripped down, setting specific version of the rules put out. 

 

For example you are playing a game and your character wants to buy a gun. It should be as simple as:

 

GUN: 2d6 RKA, Ammo: 6; cost: 10pts

 

OPTIONS:

 

+1d6 damage, cost :7pts

Armor Piercing, cost: 3pts per level

Auto Fire (2 shots per round), cost: 3pts. 

+1 OCV to hit, cost: 3pts. 

 

So I final write up on the sheet could be:

 

GUN 2d6 RKA, Armor Piercing, Autofire, Ammo: 6; total cost: 16 pts. 

 

and that is it. That's all that is needed to play.

 

Someone who has the Tool Kit rules would know that is is actually built like: 

 

Gun:  RKA 2d6, Autofire (2 shots; +1/4), Armor Piercing (+1/4) (45 Active Points); OAF (-1), 6 Charges(-3/4); Real Weapon (-1/4) Actual Cost: 15pts

 

But whatever. No need for all that extra crunch and the 1 pt difference (from rounding in hero designer) is nothing, especially if you aren't super crunchy or min/maxing. And if you want that, then use the tool kit rules, but for the rest of the RPG world clean and simple is the way to go. 

 

I know that a gun is an obvious, accessible focus. I know that it needs to be maintained and needs ammo to shoot. I don't need all that spelled out on the sheet when it is already in the book and just common sense. 

 

I would go one further, but I agree.

 

Revolver

Range:

Damage: 2d6 Killing

Ammo: 6 rounds

 

No need for additions. If they want a semi-auto, that can have its own stats. As you said, we know what that means in Hero terms, the new players can simply plug and play.

 

The sooner they play, the sooner they can play often, the sooner they want to do more with the system.

 

[Tasha]

Like other people have mentioned I think there should be a very stripped down, setting specific version of the rules put out. 

 

For example you are playing a game and your character wants to buy a gun. It should be as simple as:

 

GUN: 2d6 RKA, Ammo: 6; cost: 10pts

 

OPTIONS:

 

+1d6 damage, cost :7pts

Armor Piercing, cost: 3pts per level

Auto Fire (2 shots per round), cost: 3pts. 

+1 OCV to hit, cost: 3pts. 

 

So I final write up on the sheet could be:

 

GUN 2d6 RKA, Armor Piercing, Autofire, Ammo: 6; total cost: 16 pts. 

 

and that is it. That's all that is needed to play.

 

Someone who has the Tool Kit rules would know that is is actually built like: 

 

Gun:  RKA 2d6, Autofire (2 shots; +1/4), Armor Piercing (+1/4) (45 Active Points); OAF (-1), 6 Charges(-3/4); Real Weapon (-1/4) Actual Cost: 15pts

 

But whatever. No need for all that extra crunch and the 1 pt difference (from rounding in hero designer) is nothing, especially if you aren't super crunchy or min/maxing. And if you want that, then use the tool kit rules, but for the rest of the RPG world clean and simple is the way to go. 

 

I know that a gun is an obvious, accessible focus. I know that it needs to be maintained and needs ammo to shoot. I don't need all that spelled out on the sheet when it is already in the book and just common sense. 

That works very well when the campaign has a particular power level. Champions has a very nebulous powerlevel and doesn't really give much direction in choosing one. So buying powers COULD be a lot easier if a particular Supers campaign would choose a powerlevel and stick with it. Then you could have lots of easy to use prebuilt powers. I would probably assume a powerlevel and build each power based on that.

ie

12d6 Blast 60pts

8d6 Blast Armor Piercing 60pts

8d6 Blast AOE (cone X meters, Radius X m, Line X m etc)

6d6 Blast NND (choose a defense)

 

Start with an archetype, Include a list of Attack, Defense, movement, etc powers that archetype is typically seen with including the writeups like above. You can also do things to balance high speed characters with low speed characters etc. The archetypes would also talk about a number of common power types (ie Energy Blaster would be Cold, Fire, Magnetism etc) which would talk about what powers that archetype would usually buy. Kind of like a shopping list. It would make somewhat generic characters, but it would get people started quickly and give them some customization. Also it would get them used to seeing that the Mechanic isn't as important as what you call the power (aka it's Special effect). I would have minimal limitations on the powers. No more than two limitations that tend to be on all powers the character has ie Unified power or Only in Alternate ID.

 

This isn't as much of an issue with Heroic level games where things like guns etc are bought with money and not points and also have very detailed weapons charts in HSEquipment Guide. Though Magic spells, Psychic Abilities, and other weird abilities that apply to that genre would be included in the genre pack.

 

Though 

[steriaca]

I wish there were campaign guidelines like in 4ed. We all started with a 60 AP cap on powers, with a 60 point cap on total Physical Defense and Energy Defense.

[TheDarkness]

I wish there were campaign guidelines like in 4ed. We all started with a 60 AP cap on powers, with a 60 point cap on total Physical Defense and Energy Defense.

I can understand this for the main system. There is definitely an advantage in it to show guidelines to avoid pitfalls, since there is no predicting what builds the GM will face. I actually like a lot of the resources in the Champions Complete book for role playing and campaign approaches, and I think more never hurts.

 

For a sub-system, it becomes unnecessary, as the design would preclude going above such caps. There simply wouldn't be builds on offer at each power level that broke certain predetermined caps.

[assault]

For a sub-system, it becomes unnecessary, as the design would preclude going above such caps. There simply wouldn't be builds on offer at each power level that broke certain predetermined caps.

 

The other side of this is that a sub-system would enforce a minimum power level as well. No superheroes with 2 or 3 Speeds.

 

Of course we would have to ditch the nonsense about an Olympic Gymnast having 20 Dex and 4 Speed. An Olympic Gymnast would have more or less what Batman and Robin would have. (25/26 and 6? More?)

 

Characteristic sets would be based on game balance, including rough parity with previously published starting characters.

[Tasha]

The other side of this is that a sub-system would enforce a minimum power level as well. No superheroes with 2 or 3 Speeds.

 

Of course we would have to ditch the nonsense about an Olympic Gymnast having 20 Dex and 4 Speed. An Olympic Gymnast would have more or less what Batman and Robin would have. (25/26 and 6? More?)

 

Characteristic sets would be based on game balance, including rough parity with previously published starting characters.

 

No, I would have the archetypes have different speeds. It creates interesting game play. To have the Brick with Spd 4, Martial artist Spd 6, Speedster Spd 5 (or7) and everyone else spd 5. To make up for the slower speed the brick would have higher DC attacks than everyone else. The Martial artist and Speedster would have lower DC attacks. Since the Archetype powers would be custom to the character type they can reflect the different DCs easier. Dex can be lower since it's not tied to CV anymore.

 

The real question would be about what average powerlevel to start with. For greatest compatability with previously published 6e books, DC 12 is probably the sweet spot.

Which means Con 20, Def 24, Dex 23, Spd 5. Also assuming people using Champions Villians Vol 1-3 it becomes even MORE important to keep with multiple speeds.

 

SPD and different speeds don't really slow down combat compared to battles in Pathfinder. I find it makes things run faster, As every segment that someone has an action goes pretty fast and you don't always have everyone going in the same segments. esp after people discover the fun of delaying.

[TheDarkness]

I second retaining speed differences. Getting rid of them would also lead to a lot of players maxing DEX instead, so the difference between the martial artist and everyone else would become unreasonably small, imo.

[assault]

Did anyone suggest not having speed differences?

[TheDarkness]

Did anyone suggest not having speed differences?

Somewhere back there was reference to having all characters having the same speed.

[Tasha]

Did anyone suggest not having speed differences?

 

It seemed to be implied in your post. Though on a second read it could be taken as an issue with low spd Supers.

[Roter Baron]

Getting back to the question of: How can we get more people playing HERO?

 

Yep, a 7th editioned (more accessible, streamlinge etc. whatever) would be fine but isn't goning to happen. Tasha said something about doing it on our own. Well, more power to you guys ut it certainly ain't me.

 

So, what we have is 6th Edition (which is far away from bad!). Let's support that one!

 

How? Well, one way that made SW very popular and accessble are FREE ADVENTURES READY-TO-PLAY.

What the forum needs is a adventures in the Download Section - with a big signe : Adventures - this way"!

 

And free basic rules in pdf (no artwork).

 

That way a potential customer could get the rules and play!

 

I put one of my PULP adventures in the pulp section and I have about three or four that I wrote for contests in Germany (even one a price or two!) that I could easily convert to Fantasy Hero, Horror/ Urban Horror Hero, Champions and Western Hero.

 

I guess you also have stuff like that on your computer somewhere.

 

I think that would help ina  substantal way to draw more people to HERO. And each could help and participate.

[Hugh Neilson]

I have almost every core Pathfinder book in the PRD, and amongst them the only scraps of actual world or setting design baked into the system are the names, domains, and favored weapons of a dozen or so deities they plugged in so that clerics have something to hang their class features on.

An entire religious system seems like a big slice of a Fantasy world. We also know what magic systems exist and how they function. We know there is a hodge podge of technology, given the gear, weapons and armor available. We know from wealth by level that magic is something of a commodity. We know there is an “Asia” by the existence of Eastern weapons and armor. We know how certain races interact by their racial abilities, and we know some favour certain weaponry. We know accepted moral philosophies from the alignment system. And, as you note, the subgenre is also baked in.

 

Rangers predefine cultural combat styles, and cavaliers require Orders to belong to. These also have defaults. Barbarians exist side by side with sophisticated Alchemists. This all provides setting implications.

 

Compare this to Hero System or Fantasy Hero Complete and, even before we add some locations so we can provide a starting adventure, there’s quite a bit of predefined world, notwithstanding the portions that remain to be defined.

 

 

 

IMHO not really. They just listed as many monsters/ animals as they could. Those monsters fit Golarion as much as they do on Greyhawk and any other D&D like Medium to High Fantasy world. They are generic in their own way.

By the same token, Golarian itself is a kitchen sink world. Any one nation, or group of nations, could be extracted to plug into another world, or be its own world. That does not mean Golarian is not “a setting”.

 

The Magic System is similar. They do mention deities, but you can just as easily substitute Earth's Mythological Deities or any Deities the GM has in their head.

I think we’re losing the point. There is enough “setting/world” embedded in the rules that you don’t have to make any such choices to sit down and play. You can certainly customize your own deities, magic system, etc. should you wish to do so, just as you can in Hero (although the process is made easier in Hero by having the system behind it). But, unlike Hero, you can also begin play immediately with these key choices having already been made. And that pregenerated content is clearly a marketing advantage.

[TheDarkness]

An entire religious system seems like a big slice of a Fantasy world. We also know what magic systems exist and how they function. We know there is a hodge podge of technology, given the gear, weapons and armor available. We know from wealth by level that magic is something of a commodity. We know there is an “Asia” by the existence of Eastern weapons and armor. We know how certain races interact by their racial abilities, and we know some favour certain weaponry. We know accepted moral philosophies from the alignment system. And, as you note, the subgenre is also baked in.

 

Rangers predefine cultural combat styles, and cavaliers require Orders to belong to. These also have defaults. Barbarians exist side by side with sophisticated Alchemists. This all provides setting implications.

 

Compare this to Hero System or Fantasy Hero Complete and, even before we add some locations so we can provide a starting adventure, there’s quite a bit of predefined world, notwithstanding the portions that remain to be defined.

 

 

 

 

By the same token, Golarian itself is a kitchen sink world. Any one nation, or group of nations, could be extracted to plug into another world, or be its own world. That does not mean Golarian is not “a setting”.

 

 

I think we’re losing the point. There is enough “setting/world” embedded in the rules that you don’t have to make any such choices to sit down and play. You can certainly customize your own deities, magic system, etc. should you wish to do so, just as you can in Hero (although the process is made easier in Hero by having the system behind it). But, unlike Hero, you can also begin play immediately with these key choices having already been made. And that pregenerated content is clearly a marketing advantage.

I agree with this. The system is not itself a setting book, but there is a lot of implied setting. It's a lot different than a ruleset in which one could make elves dwarves, magic, etc., but what sort one makes is left to the gamer in a system where they could go almost any direction.

 

Not in response to your post, just generally speaking now:

 

But, almost any definition along these lines pretty much WILL make it a game based off of Hero. The moment it is defined what an elf is, what a ranger can do, we are far afield of the base Hero system, and should recognize it and use it to our advantage.

 

Having more adventures is good and fine, but does not solve the key issue. I don't know any groups that only play prepackaged adventures, I don't think I ever have. If making games for one's group is too time consuming for most gamers, no amount of advertising is going to get past this problem. This is why Hero Designer and the Combat Manager are a very good idea for Hero, there is simply no reason not to use technology to make people's lives easier who ARE using the system, and I really feel they should utilize more approaches like this. Likewise, a simpler, modular system based off of the main system adds to the value of the overall system by way of making building faster for GMs in general, leading to more people able to play.

[steriaca]

Gee, I really opened up a can of worms. A small can, but with Huge, Dune Sized Sandworms. And no spice in site.

 

Yes, we need free adventures and free try me rules. But, really, can we really condense the game to bite size free bits?

[Tasha]

By the same token, Golarian itself is a kitchen sink world. Any one nation, or group of nations, could be extracted to plug into another world, or be its own world. That does not mean Golarian is not “a setting”.

 

 

I think we’re losing the point. There is enough “setting/world” embedded in the rules that you don’t have to make any such choices to sit down and play. You can certainly customize your own deities, magic system, etc. should you wish to do so, just as you can in Hero (although the process is made easier in Hero by having the system behind it). But, unlike Hero, you can also begin play immediately with these key choices having already been made. And that pregenerated content is clearly a marketing advantage.

 

Never said that Golarion wasn't, but it's not really introduced unless you buy supplements. They do show the deities of Golarion as an example for Clerics and Paladins. Really no other part of Golarion is in the core rulebooks. Just like D&D 3.x and 4.x don't come with a built in world. They include the gods of first Greyhawk then Forgotten Realms, but zero detail about those worlds is in the books. Everything is kept generic so the rules could be used for any D&D like game world. 

 

I would want a Game world in a book that included EVERY thing you would need to play. Magic Spells, Super Powers, Psychic Powers etc. Some sample critters and NPCs would be great. It would also be ok to rely on the HS Bestiary for more critters.  

[Joe Walsh]

And free basic rules in pdf (no artwork).

 

That's a biggie in today's market: the lack of a free Hero System ruleset. There's no Quickstart, no SRD, no Lite edition...there's just stuff that costs money. So we have an RPG that is widely seen as very difficult to use, yet no one can download a copy to see for themselves without spending money. Why would anyone want to spend money on a game they "know" is difficult to use?