Problems With Fantasy Hero Complete and Newbies

[Brian Stanfield]

Eventually, but its going to be down the road a spell.  Maybe next year.  I'd want to do it sooner, but I have my own projects and life gets in the way, and the Champions Begins thing.  If someone else were to step up and do the heavy lifting I'd be glad to help as much as I could.

I'm working on a dissertation right now, but I'll try to work on this in bits and pieces. It won't be the same as your other project, but I'm definitely lookin at your suggestions!

[Brian Stanfield]

Eventually, but its going to be down the road a spell.  Maybe next year.  I'd want to do it sooner, but I have my own projects and life gets in the way, and the Champions Begins thing.  If someone else were to step up and do the heavy lifting I'd be glad to help as much as I could.

 

Ugh! I read through all of the Champions Basic thread. That looks pretty tedious. Any progress on that, or did it just die?

 

Did you get any more clarifications on licensing? I won't have quite such a problem with Fantasy Hero, but there will still be things I haven't thought about. Any insight there?

 

I'm thinking Fantasy Hero would actually be easier to create an introductory product for because it doesn't have to make such extensive use of all of the rules and powers that Champions should. With much of the characters utilizing equipment and skills more than powers, it would probably also make the tutorial easier as well. At least in a different order, since in fantasy I'd think skill development is more primary than spell building, etc. I'll take the lead on this, but it won't be for months. I just wanted to check in.

[Christopher R Taylor]

I contacted Jason and he said he'd check into it but without something to present, I haven't followed up on it.  Once we get a rough sketch done and the scenario basically prepped, I'll talk to him again.

[Xotl]

I was intrigued by this thread (particularly the difficult balancing act between "intrigue the reader", "teach the reader ", and "don't overwhelm the reader") and decided to do a thingie.  Here's a part of it.

 

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/357573/Fantasy%20Hero%20Primer.pdf

[Amorkca]

I was intrigued by this thread (particularly the difficult balancing act between "intrigue the reader", "teach the reader ", and "don't overwhelm the reader") and decided to do a thingie.  Here's a part of it.

 

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/357573/Fantasy%20Hero%20Primer.pdf

 

This... Is... Brilliant!!!

 

Standing ovation!!!

 

More! More!!

[Christopher R Taylor]

That's pretty well done (although you swapped the characterstic cost of Ego and Dex).

[Xotl]

Oops: corrected.

 

I've also finished with the creation of the first character.  Following this pattern, each character would take four pages.  The first three would be a walkthrough of sorts, while the last would just be the full character sheet (although when it's done I'd likely just move the completed sheets together).

 

There's a bit of simplification here, but only a bit.  For example, I haven't listed any modifiers on the few limitations I've added; Fast Draw should be noted as for Common Melee Weapons, but that's a long and cumbersome note, etc.

 

I didn't explore Complications for Laakash because there's going to be two other characters, and I would want to break things up a bit.  Haven't thought about how to cover equipment yet.

 

I'll likely be tinkering with the material for a good while on my own (and continually refreshing the PDF at the link), but outside input is always better.  Feel free to make any suggestions regarding content or approach.

 

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/357573/Fantasy%20Hero%20Primer.pdf

[Spence]

I was intrigued by this thread (particularly the difficult balancing act between "intrigue the reader", "teach the reader ", and "don't overwhelm the reader") and decided to do a thingie.  Here's a part of it.

 

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/357573/Fantasy%20Hero%20Primer.pdf

 

 

This... Is... Brilliant!!!

 

Standing ovation!!!

 

More! More!!

 

I would say Brilliant, but Amorkca beat me to it

[Scott Ruggels]

 

If you are not careful you will set me off on my hobby horse of the character sheet being the game's GUI for players.

 

Doc

as an aside, this is pretty much how character sheets work on Roll20.net, printable interfaces, that change real time due to button and value change inputs. Since using the old (OLD!) Heromaker that came out on the 3.5 in. floppies, I have been a lot more comfortable using the computer to make characters and character sheets than pencil and paper.

[Scott Ruggels]

 What I'm interested in is if there's a way to "dumb it down" enough so that players can learn even without an experienced GM. A few people in this thread have talked about starting from scratch, which would scare the hell out of me, but some people are game for that. Is there a way to help them out without an experienced GM to pre-generate 12 characters to choose from, etc., as you describe?

 

This is all simply to edify my curiosity: how much can we trim away for the sake of simplicity, yet still maintain what makes Hero unique?

Unfortunately, I think it would be unlikely for a group of newbies to pick up the system entirely from scratch.  The problem from picking it up from scratch is two fold.

 The first is the "Hidden GM Knowledge" problem, which was adroitly addressed by the Player's Handbook / DM's Guide structure of AD&D. the players are going to want, as stated above, context, for their builds, equipment and a list of spells.  The GM however is going to have to need more of the "Toolkit Approach" of the regular rulebooks.  give the players too much to read and they succumb to MEGO (My Eyes Glaze Over), and lose interest. Conversely a beginning GM for Hero, may see what is presented as rather limited after the first few months, and then he comes to the decision point whether to invest in new rulebooks or find something different.

 

The Second problem is current taste. What do the new faces around the table look like?  Are they people who came back to the gaming table after years away from it, with previous gaming experience? Are they new young people with no experience, but an interest due to the exposure of Tabletop gaming by Will Wheaton, or other people on YouTube and Twitch (or even curious about games after seeing it on "Stranger Things", even? What does the market look like now?

 

I still think that the best way to learn the system (as I have said on another thread), is to have an experienced GM run the game for new players. Now that may falter, but the system really shines in play, rather than on the page (as it has been so far presented). I am not sure what the correct course is.  If the booklet can be written in such a way as to guide new players to the system and guide them into future purchases of the full rules set, I think that would be optimal, but I have no idea how that would be done.  Nut having a small short book, you can pass out for free that would allow for a basic game to be played, would help spread it (especially in PDF form, as well as a inexpensively printed pamphlet with a full color cover similar to the original  SGJ Melee/ Wizard booklets.)  having someting to take home from a con would be a good freebie to generate interest?

[Scott Ruggels]

 

 

This should be a product that players can pick up, flip through, and then start playing the game.  Make a character in 5 minutes.  After a few sessions, they should have a pretty good handle on the system.  Then when they look at the Fantasy Hero Complete book, everything will start to make sense.  They'll have a frame of reference for it.  The intro book would cover what 90% of new players want.  It's not intimidating, it's not scary, it's clearly labeled and has a familiar layout.  You could hand this to a 10 year old, they'd be able to read through it and understand it.

Bravo! This is exactly what I was thinking about in the above, quoted post.

[Scott Ruggels]

To Eisenmann, Christopher Taylor, and Cantriped: I love your ideas! For the time being, let's leave production costs and logistics out of consideration. Brainstorm without constraint!

 

 

 

Eisenmann, I really like your idea of using little beads or whatever, or Cantriped's tokens, to track different stats. This is visually intuitive. The only possible problem I can see is that players need to keep track of specific numbers of STUN, for example, to determine whether their characters are stunned (compared to their CON). Perhaps this may be one of those rules that could be eliminated for basic play, but it's pretty basic to the game. Do you use a card for the aquarium stones to show what the pool is, and what is used? It's possible to indicate "if x number of STUN is moved from your pool, you are stunned for one phase," or something like that. What do you do?

 

place the stones in a grid, with the horizontal number of  collumn squares equal to their CON, and enough vertical lines to allow all their Stun stones to be placed. if the player removesa number of stones to clear a line, or equal to that number, they are then stunned.

 if their grid is empty, they are unconscious?

[TheDarkness]

Unfortunately, I think it would be unlikely for a group of newbies to pick up the system entirely from scratch.  The problem from picking it up from scratch is two fold.

 The first is the "Hidden GM Knowledge" problem, which was adroitly addressed by the Player's Handbook / DM's Guide structure of AD&D. the players are going to want, as stated above, context, for their builds, equipment and a list of spells.  The GM however is going to have to need more of the "Toolkit Approach" of the regular rulebooks.  give the players too much to read and they succumb to MEGO (My Eyes Glaze Over), and lose interest. Conversely a beginning GM for Hero, may see what is presented as rather limited after the first few months, and then he comes to the decision point whether to invest in new rulebooks or find something different.

 

The Second problem is current taste. What do the new faces around the table look like?  Are they people who came back to the gaming table after years away from it, with previous gaming experience? Are they new young people with no experience, but an interest due to the exposure of Tabletop gaming by Will Wheaton, or other people on YouTube and Twitch (or even curious about games after seeing it on "Stranger Things", even? What does the market look like now?

 

I still think that the best way to learn the system (as I have said on another thread), is to have an experienced GM run the game for new players. Now that may falter, but the system really shines in play, rather than on the page (as it has been so far presented). I am not sure what the correct course is.  If the booklet can be written in such a way as to guide new players to the system and guide them into future purchases of the full rules set, I think that would be optimal, but I have no idea how that would be done.  Nut having a small short book, you can pass out for free that would allow for a basic game to be played, would help spread it (especially in PDF form, as well as a inexpensively printed pamphlet with a full color cover similar to the original  SGJ Melee/ Wizard booklets.)  having someting to take home from a con would be a good freebie to generate interest?

This is a lot of what some of us have been talking about for awhile.

 

There is a thought that came from it of games 'powered by Hero', essentially using the Hero system to design games that would then draw more players into the full system.

 

So, instead of focusing on complex build mechanics, provide lists of premade powers, skillsets, etc, whose mechanics are put in English instead of Hero build accounting, but whose actual builds would be readily available online in pdf format, this sort of thing.

 

The play itself is not as complex, and would be shown fully.

 

Since fantasy is a large share of the market, this is an avenue that would work well for it.

 

Now, one thing I tend to think is that, as much as possible, lots of modifiers should be avoided for these builds, as modifiers that can play into combat are fairly numerous in Hero. For example, Combat Skill Levels can add a lot of complexity to play in combat, so builds where they are not readily shuffled, but are tied to OCV, DCV, or DC specifically, in order to simplify game play, would make it simpler for the new players, even if later, availability of CSLs that can be shuffled are added in.

 

In essence, such games would be entirely compatible with any other Hero game in genre, while GMs who, as you say, later are going to want more complexity and the ability to add elements without breaking balance will be drawn to the full Hero system.

[Scott Ruggels]

 

Pikt's Bolt of Lightning

By invoking the spirit of a storm elemental through arcane words and gestures, this spell allows the caster to strike their foes with lightning from their fingertips.

When casting this spell, select a point within the caster's reach, and make an attack roll against every target within an area 2m wide and 30m long beginning from that point. Those struck by the spell suffer 2d6 points of Killing Damage versus Energy Defense; the caster cannot choose to reduce the damage of this spell, and when striking walls and other obstacles this spell does not blow open large holes in them. Casting this spell requires gestures, incantations, and the expenditure of 4 END; as such it cannot be cast while the caster is bound (including being Grabbed or Entangled) or gagged (including being Silenced by magic), and casting will fail if the caster is struck while casting.

Game Elements:  RKA 2d6 (vs. ED), Area of Effect (30m Line, Nonselective; +1/4) (37 APs); Beam (-1/4), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4), No Range (-1/2), Restrainable (-1/2). Total Cost:  13 points.

 

 

I think  this version is probably the best presentation, and p[robably should follow something similar to expose the mechanics and acronyms to the new players, but without being obtrusive. I would probably format it more like

 

Pikt's Bolt of Lightning

By invoking the spirit of a storm elemental through arcane words and gestures, this spell allows the caster to strike their foes with lightning from their fingertips.

When casting this spell, select a point within the caster's reach, and make an attack roll against every target within an area 2m wide and 30m long beginning from that point. Those struck by the spell suffer 2d6 points of Killing Damage versus Energy Defense; the caster cannot choose to reduce the damage of this spell, and when striking walls and other obstacles this spell does not blow open large holes in them. Casting this spell requires gestures, incantations, and the expenditure of 4 END; as such it cannot be cast while the caster is bound (including being Grabbed or Entangled) or gagged (including being Silenced by magic), and casting will fail if the caster is struck while casting.

_________________________________________________________________________________________________

Game Elements:  RKA 2d6 (vs. ED), Area of Effect (30m Line, Nonselective; +1/4) (37 APs); Beam (-1/4), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4), No Range (-1/2), Restrainable (-1/2). Total Cost:  13 points.

 

Keep the Game elements there, but drop them into fine print, and have a notationabout the fine print and how to build spells elsewhere.on the book.

Thoughts?

[Scott Ruggels]

Multipower is the easiest mechanic to hide. Just don't get complicated with it. Don't have a 60 point pool with 4 multi slots, 3 60 point ultras, 3 20 point ultras, etc.

 

Do it like this instead:

 

Multipower, 60 points

Fireball -- 2D6 RKA Area Effect Radius +1

Lightning bolt -- 2D6 RKA Area Effect Line +1

Cone of Cold -- 2D6 RKA Area Effect Cone +1

 

Magic spell pool

This ability allows you to use any attack spell known up to the level of the magic pool, one at a time. Because the caster must maintain control over the magic, an attack that continues to inflict damage phase after phase will stop if the caster begins to cast a different spell.

 

Easy.

Too much for a beginner.  and the presentation is the inverse of what would be attractive or instructive to the new player.

 

Magic spell pool

This ability allows you to use any attack spell known up to the level of the magic pool, one at a time. Because the caster must maintain control over the magic, an attack that continues to inflict damage phase after phase will stop if the caster begins to cast a different spell. This example  provides three spells for attack, all of which do 2D6 of Ranged Killing attack against energy defenses, and targeted in an area, so that one can hit multiple foes with one spell. the caster chooses one of the following spells: Throckmorton's Conflagration, a spell that drops an explosion of flames [ describing the casting, targeting and effect of the spell; Zeus' Wrath, a spell that will produce lightining in a line of hezes [ect. ect.]; Polar Blast, a spell that produced a conic area of intense cold that will deliver 2d6 of Killing damage against energy defenses [Yadda yadda]

______________________________________________________________________________

Multipower, 60 points Throckmorton's Conflagration: Fireball -- 2D6 RKA Area Effect Radius +1. Zeus' Wrath: Lightning bolt -- 2D6 RKA Area Effect Line +1, Arctic blast: Cone of Cold -- 2D6 RKA Area Effect Cone +1.

 

The problem is not that a multipower can be listed simply, is that the standard notation gives the entirely wrong and intimidating information to new players as to what the context of the spell is.

[Scott Ruggels]

 

We have real world evidence that Multipowers are a barrier to entry.  I didn't even try to work with them until I'd been playing Champions for a while, and I was a 15 year old high school geek at the time.  So, why not hold it off until the new folks have been playing for a while?  

 

Once you know OCV and DCV and roll 3d6 to hit and for Skills, and know where to look on your sheet for STR damage and Hit Locations and your armor values... have gotten used to the procedures of play, but also have an idea of what all the advanced terminology means, maybe have an idea for a character that you want to try to build on your own... then bring out the Multipowers.  

 

Multipowers are the deep end of the pool -- no, scratch that, they're the diving well and a 10 meter diving board.  We're still trying to get people comfy getting their feet wet in the shallow end of the pool.  You gotta learn to dog-paddle before you can learn to dive.

 

I second this.  I never used any power frameworks, and always bought them straight, or with a oiF or OAF focus, though if i needed a multipower built i would ask someone else to do it for me, after i had fleshed out the rest of the character, and had a block of points left to spend.

[Scott Ruggels]

As for the pre-gen, here's the funny part: I sat down with his 11-year-old daughter when I was back home for Thanksgiving and we built a character in half an hour! I just asked her what she wanted to play, and she just started rattling off stuff (a young woman raises by wolves but taught druidry by an old woman who found her in the wilderness, she can talk to animals, control the weather, she lacks social skills, frightens people easily, and defends nature with ferocity). She really got into the spirit and the whole world was open to her. She even came up with her own Complications through the process. I think this is what we're really supposed to be doing when we build characters!

 

I tried the same thing with my buddy, and his decades of experience with D&D and Pathfinder made him really unsure of what he could or should pick, how the different parts related to each other, what templates were more useful, etc. etc. He was crippled by his gaming expertise, stuck trying to figure out if spells or swords were "better," which skills were "better," and things like this. I gave him the "Hero in 2 Pages" to read, and he looked at the combat example document I found somewhere, but it just seemed to confuse him more because now he got derailed in wanting to know all the minutiae of the characteristics in combat, and he spun off into more questions than he could handle. Meanwhile, his little girl just jumped in with both feet and had a blast because I was there to translate everything for her.

 

 

That is part of what, I think, Hero has to always fight against. Its lack of familiarity is "hard" for experienced gamers, and its complexity is too much for new gamers. In all honesty, when I grabbed the GURPS Lite document that someone mentioned last week, I read and understood it in an hour, enough so that I felt like I could maybe make a character with some people and play a little bit in one evening. We need something like this. Something more than 2 pages, but less than, say, 700, or even the 266 pages of Fantasy Hero Complete.

 

That's a beautiful story with your daughter. especially how solidly she had the character Concept down.  Even into the disads.

 

Your friend, however, does bring up a different problem.

 

What are you aiming this product at?  A blank slate player new to the hobby? An experience Gamer, just unfamiliar with Hero?  I think that is going to change the focus, quite a bit perhaps.

 

I can see that for a blank Slate player, like your daughter, you would want  something like the old "Package Deals" plus a skill  list and spell list to  allow for some customization, and also ease of use.  something liek a mix and match of: [Racial Package Deal], [ cultural package deal], [ Professional package deal], Then pick additional skills and talents and Complications (is that what they are calling Disads these days?)

 

where as, your friend might need the standard reference archetypes as pregenerateds, so he has context for the game and the power levels? Also in his case he will need simple spell lists with no, or hidden mechanics, until later.

[Brian Stanfield]

Oops: corrected.

 

I've also finished with the creation of the first character.  Following this pattern, each character would take four pages.  The first three would be a walkthrough of sorts, while the last would jsut be the full character sheet (although when it's done I'd likely just move the completed sheets together).

 

There's a bit of simplification here, but only a bit.  For example, I haven't listed any modifiers on the few limitations I've added; Fast Draw should be noted as for Common Melee Weapons, but that's a long and cumbersome note, etc.

 

I didn't explore complications for Laakash because there's going to be two other characters, and I would want to break things up a bit.  Haven't thought about how to cover equipment yet.

 

I'll likely be tinkering with the material for a good while on my own (and continually refreshing the PDF at the link), but outside input is always better.  Feel free to make any suggestions regarding content or approach.

 

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/357573/Fantasy%20Hero%20Primer.pdf

 

While this is very well presented (and I mean well presented!), I was considering something even more basic to introduce players to the basic elements of the game. You are assuming OCV/DCV makes sense to the player creating a character. I'm looking for a way to introduce those game elements to someone who has no idea what they mean yet. 

 

I like this approach, and the rationale offered for pre-gens are something I was thinking would come in an appendix, along with the build information for spells, etc. Your use of artwork is an excellent idea, and should be more fully integrated into anything that gets produced. Did you design the artwork yourself, or is it something you "borrowed" from another source?

[Brian Stanfield]

That's a beautiful story with your daughter. especially how solidly she had the character Concept down.  Even into the disads.

 

Your friend, however, does bring up a different problem.

 

What are you aiming this product at?  A blank slate player new to the hobby? An experience Gamer, just unfamiliar with Hero?  I think that is going to change the focus, quite a bit perhaps.

 

I can see that for a blank Slate player, like your daughter, you would want  something like the old "Package Deals" plus a skill  list and spell list to  allow for some customization, and also ease of use.  something liek a mix and match of: [Racial Package Deal], [ cultural package deal], [ Professional package deal], Then pick additional skills and talents and Complications (is that what they are calling Disads these days?)

 

where as, your friend might need the standard reference archetypes as pregenerateds, so he has context for the game and the power levels? Also in his case he will need simple spell lists with no, or hidden mechanics, until later.

 

Well, I'm not totally sure yet whom I am aiming this at yet. Here's the rub: my buddy's daughter had no problem being guided through the process and letting me build the character for her. She had zero game experience but an experienced GM to shepherd her through the process. My buddy, on the other hand, has decades of experience and didn't react so well to feeling helpless in the process, and he really needed some sort of translation product to help him get his mind around the rules.

 

So I'd like to come up with something that would hopefully serve both kinds of players well. Can I come up with something that even an inexperienced GM can play with a group of other players who haven't played before? It's more out of curiosity at this point, but has some merit for a long term project. 

 

Ultimately, I think HERO would benefit from having a boxed product on the shelf of game stores so that new players can be drawn in. They aren't about to spend that kind of money on it, so realistically it would have to be a free .pdf of some sort. What I have in mind is a very quick and basic rundown of the characteristics, the game elements, etc. Some pre-gen characters available to play right away, a list of spells with very basic descriptions, and an equipment list. There would be an appendix with all the technical build information so that it doesn't have to clutter up the main text.

 

But I'd also like to use a lot of templates to assist in character generation. In all honesty, this was the speed bump that slowed my buddy down. He didn't have any idea what was considered average or powerful, and had a hard time wrapping his head around building from scratch without a class system, etc. So I'd like to have a guided tour through the character building process with templates and optional skills, etc., to rationalize the process a bit for someone unfamiliar with the game.

[Brian Stanfield]

Unfortunately, I think it would be unlikely for a group of newbies to pick up the system entirely from scratch.  The problem from picking it up from scratch is two fold.

 The first is the "Hidden GM Knowledge" problem, which was adroitly addressed by the Player's Handbook / DM's Guide structure of AD&D. the players are going to want, as stated above, context, for their builds, equipment and a list of spells.  The GM however is going to have to need more of the "Toolkit Approach" of the regular rulebooks.  give the players too much to read and they succumb to MEGO (My Eyes Glaze Over), and lose interest. Conversely a beginning GM for Hero, may see what is presented as rather limited after the first few months, and then he comes to the decision point whether to invest in new rulebooks or find something different.

 

The Second problem is current taste. What do the new faces around the table look like?  Are they people who came back to the gaming table after years away from it, with previous gaming experience? Are they new young people with no experience, but an interest due to the exposure of Tabletop gaming by Will Wheaton, or other people on YouTube and Twitch (or even curious about games after seeing it on "Stranger Things", even? What does the market look like now?

 

I still think that the best way to learn the system (as I have said on another thread), is to have an experienced GM run the game for new players. Now that may falter, but the system really shines in play, rather than on the page (as it has been so far presented). I am not sure what the correct course is.  If the booklet can be written in such a way as to guide new players to the system and guide them into future purchases of the full rules set, I think that would be optimal, but I have no idea how that would be done.  Nut having a small short book, you can pass out for free that would allow for a basic game to be played, would help spread it (especially in PDF form, as well as a inexpensively printed pamphlet with a full color cover similar to the original  SGJ Melee/ Wizard booklets.)  having someting to take home from a con would be a good freebie to generate interest?

 

All your points are well-made. In all honesty, I wish HERO had a basic box of some sort on the shelves of game shops. I realize this isn't going to happen, but that's just my wish. But how else is the game going to grow? Good artwork on the cover is a plus. As you say, an experienced GM is also a plus (and virtually a must), so conventions and such would help. But without new gamers HERO is going to die out as the guys who started playing it in the '80s pass away. I know it's the echo chamber of a discussion board, but so many of the experts of the game are aging veterans. Where are the new players? We run the risk of becoming a dying hobby, like a bunch of ham radio enthusiasts who only talk to each other. 

 

I guess maybe I ought to reformulate my question: how are new players learning about this game? I tried to get newbies into the discussion, but I think we've worn them out.    So how do we get new folks to play? We've all learned that HERO System isn't all that hard once you get into it, but what is the incentive to get into it in the first place? Eye-catching art? Nope. Shelf space in a shop? Nope. Buzz at conventions? Nope. Nothing about the game actually appears new: it looks like an old game that's been reskinned with a really low budget to people who are not familiar with it. That's always been the Champions/HERO System M.O. They had a golden age when 5th and 6th came out, but that money is all gone, and perhaps the incentive to innovate beyond word of mouth. When word of mouth is the only marketing scheme, while the mouths are getting older and older, then I worry. When you ask what the faces at the table look like, I'm not very optimistic that it will involve young people because there's nothing leading young people to the game. Why would they even know about it? I live in a university town and would love to run some demos, but nobody seems to be interested. They've never even heard of it.

 

I didn't mean for this to get so pessimistic. Sorry.

 

Your last point is a good one, and is more like why I began this thread. So, let me be more optimistic. We absolutely need a free .pdf available to hand out. Someone mentioned GURPS Lite earlier on this board, and I went to check it out. I read it and felt like I learned the game in half an hour. Obviously I don't really know the game, but the point is that I felt like I knew the game when I read it. I felt like I could rattle out a character in an hour or so. This is what I was aiming for when I started this thread, without knowing that it was already being done for GURPS. So, I'm not trying to copy their idea, but in the end it is a good idea. Having a 30-40 page handout seems like a must. As you say, something to take home from a con, or a game demo at a shop, is optimal. And especially beneficial would be something that can summarize the rules and give references to the full rule set to create the incentive to expand. If I had this, then I could run local demos at the very least.

 

I plan on working on this soon. Maybe this summer. I'm mired in a dissertation right now and can't afford that kind of time. But it's become a long term goal for me, and I will get around to doing it this year. Until then, I'm still mulling things over and love the ideas that come up here. Thanks, everyone, for playing along!

[Xotl]

While this is very well presented (and I mean well presented!), I was considering something even more basic to introduce players to the basic elements of the game. You are assuming OCV/DCV makes sense to the player creating a character. I'm looking for a way to introduce those game elements to someone who has no idea what they mean yet. 

 

I like this approach, and the rationale offered for pre-gens are something I was thinking would come in an appendix, along with the build information for spells, etc. Your use of artwork is an excellent idea, and should be more fully integrated into anything that gets produced. Did you design the artwork yourself, or is it something you "borrowed" from another source?

 

No no, not assuming: what you've seen so far is pages 4-7.  I actually started based on a proposed outline posted some pages back in this thread.  Pages 1-3 give a quick intro and introduce characteristics, skills, complications.  I just felt that wasn't as nailed down as yet so I didn't include it in my first download.

 

As for the art, yeah, it's google image search stuff, just for proof of concept.  If anything was to happen with this, we'd need new art.  However, it doesn't have to be expensive, because just a few simple black and white sketches here and there really break up the monotony.  It's just making sure it's clean art, consistent in style, that doesn't suck.

 

I've got a link below to the first two pages.  The idea here, as with all of it, is quick, simple, but also constantly trying to make clear what Hero has to offer a guy who almost certainly has already played D&D and whatnot and is looking for something different (because if they weren't looking for something different, they wouldn't be reading this; they'd be playing D&D).  We absolutely cannot assume just elves and dwarves and traditional roles are going to draw anyone in.

 

I've arbitrarily broken the stats up into two categories.  This is just simple presentation: tell someone Hero has 17 stats with no other context and they'll boggle.  Make clear a bunch of it is pretty much for combat only and they'll have an easier time (just like no one considers HP and AC as D&D "stats").  Don't have any movement info there yet, though, and I'll be including a brief note about selling back stats as well.

 

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/357573/Fantasy%20Hero%20Primer%201-2.pdf

 

(Also, I had a bunch of characteristics costs in the earlier pdf wrong due to copying and pasting: those are fixed).

[Cantriped]

I'll likely be tinkering with the material for a good while on my own (and continually refreshing the PDF at the link), but outside input is always better.  Feel free to make any suggestions regarding content or approach.

 

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/357573/Fantasy%20Hero%20Primer.pdf

Suggestions Regarding the Document:

​

First, I would suggest that you format the final character sheet as much like the standard format as you can tolerate. Doing so will make it easier for inexperienced players to compare your characters to the example characters and bestiary entries in Fantasy Hero Complete​.

 

Second, for equipment I suggest keeping it as simple as possible. Give a plain list at the end of the sheet, before or after the description, and cite the page numbers for the table is was drawn from. For example;

Equipment:  ​Ragged Clothes, Leather armor (FHC 248), Battle Axe (FHC 249), Sling (FHC 249).

Possessions:  Backpack, Bedroll, Disguise Kit, Fishing Kit, Messkit, Compass.

If such items don't have game elements assigned to them say so, otherwise consider taking a few lines to describe what they do. For example, the Disguise Kit, Fishing Kit, and Compass simply negate the Lack Of Equipment Penalties for Disguise and Survival respectively.

One of my character files in the downloads (Bell Cranel), includes a full stat block for his Mundane Equipment, because much of it is slightly different from the equipment presented in FHC. If one of your characters ends up needing an item that doesn't exist in FHC (like a Scythe, or sectional armor like a Breastplate for example), I would suggest using a similar format.

 

Third, I mentioned this earlier in the thread, but it bears repeating. I recommend giving character's intended for new players no more than one type of Combat Skill Level or Penalty Skill Level. For example, +2 with Axes (as 3-point CSLs).

 

Fourth, unless you plan on including color illustrations, all of the borders and similar design elements should be in greyscale so you know how they will look when a player has them printed. As a general rule, nobody is going to pay ten times as much per page to have a document printed in color unless it includes color illustrations.

 

Comments Regarding the Document:

I like the general layout and graphic design of the document, I especially like the border style for the Digging Deeper segments, however I feel like the page borders are a little bit busy. I tend to prefer simple designs though, so that may just be my own bias. 

 

​I really like that you have included a reference to where every game element used can be found in FHC. This will help inexperienced players build confidence in the system by learning where things are a little at a time.

[Scott Ruggels]

This is a lot of what some of us have been talking about for awhile.

 

There is a thought that came from it of games 'powered by Hero', essentially using the Hero system to design games that would then draw more players into the full system.

 

So, instead of focusing on complex build mechanics, provide lists of premade powers, skillsets, etc, whose mechanics are put in English instead of Hero build accounting, but whose actual builds would be readily available online in pdf format, this sort of thing.

 

The play itself is not as complex, and would be shown fully.

 

Since fantasy is a large share of the market, this is an avenue that would work well for it.

 

Now, one thing I tend to think is that, as much as possible, lots of modifiers should be avoided for these builds, as modifiers that can play into combat are fairly numerous in Hero. For example, Combat Skill Levels can add a lot of complexity to play in combat, so builds where they are not readily shuffled, but are tied to OCV, DCV, or DC specifically, in order to simplify game play, would make it simpler for the new players, even if later, availability of CSLs that can be shuffled are added in.

 

In essence, such games would be entirely compatible with any other Hero game in genre, while GMs who, as you say, later are going to want more complexity and the ability to add elements without breaking balance will be drawn to the full Hero system.

 

 

Then again, you have split the  Possible product into two directions. (again).   What is the aim?  Are you trying to present a to the new players, a game world based on Hero mechanics? Are you trying to present an introduction of the game mechanics with a world wrapped around it?  Powered by Hero, presents a problem of selling a background, and just presenting the mechanics.  I think the aim for long term survival is the opposite approach is  necessary. use the background to sell the system, or induce curiosity about the system.

In terms of the presentation, many modifiers, special combat rules, and power frameworks should be avoided. What stats do, How stats work in combat, what skills do, what spells do, That should be the basic.

[TheDarkness]

I think the goal in that case is to have hero available to people who are not, out of the box, willing to or are ready to deal with full builds, which is a significant share of the market.

 

Selling Hero as is presumes that it's necessarily possible to convince a significant number of people that, even though they don't want to spend that much time on character building pregame, they will or should. I don't think that way has worked.

 

Conversely, I think that is a loss. One player may be incredibly elegant at builds, but poor or average at the game table. One player may tend towards the most unimaginative builds, but add good role play dynamics at the table. As is, the system does little to attract people who want to play, not build, and that loss is felt every time many people are trying to find a group to play with.

 

Further, this is not zero sum. Largely, it seems those talking about 'powered by Hero' are planning their own or working in a group to develop this. More Hero products available does not take away from the core stuff, especially if some is more modest in production. If any of those more modest products gain some traction, yes, that might influence the decision making of the company itself, and then it might be an issue if the direction is at odds with the market.

[Xotl]

Comments on comments:

 

Use of colour: The only colour is (and will be) in the basic graphic elements (borders and text boxes).  The colour elements will print in black and white with no loss of information fidelity, but makes for a better reading experience on the screen.

 

Equipment: With regards to everyday and skill-based equipment, I probably don't want to get that specific.  I think it's safe to say that many GM's say "you obviously need what you need to use your skill properly, and we're giving it to you for free".  Going into heavy detail seems to me to just play into Hero prejudices of statting and detailing absolutely everything; I wouldn't want to do that in a regular supplement, let alone a deliberately simplified primer.  In terms of weapons, I'm thinking of doing an equipment section after all the characters, where I can explore weapons, armour, and magical version of each in a bit of detail, and without bogging down the character entries.  I think that fits better, because it will have the same relevance to all three characters.

 

All right, I decided to dive into the troublesome issue of magic, which has caused a lot of debate in this thread.  I'd probably place this character last, after the rogue, but I think it needs more attention and so I'm going at it now; the wizard character appears after the fighter, on page 5 of the pdf.  Let me know what you think:

 

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/357573/Fantasy%20Hero%20Primer.pdf

 

In general, I want to stay general, and that's doubly true of magic: if we're going to lose them anywhere, I suspect this would be it.  However, I think what could be done is a mini-appendix at the end of the document that gives an intro to the full Hero powers system: adders, limitations, advantages.  As part of that, I'd add a section that properly builds out each characters' power in full.  That way the characters are ultimately fully usable for Hero play, but the information never shows up until the reader is certain they want to dive into that on their own.  It still could still scare them off, but at a certain point we need to just admit that Hero can be complex, this is the way it works, and let the reader judge for themselves if the system is right for them.