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jujitsuguy

Not sure how to rule on this power

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Team:

I have a player who created a power but not sure how to rule on this or play it out.


I set the Max APs of the game to 40AP or 8DCs attacks(with normal STR), or optionally an additional 10AP or 2DCs if the character was using a temp power that costs 2x END.

So, on one specific power, I have this:

image.png.bc1a59bebf8a8968e35c21942d3203d6.png

 

Now, Ignore the second part (example 4d6 w/ STR), as the player has Density Increase, which we agreed it would put him waaay over the 10 DCs, so he wrote the notes in below.

"2d6-1 w/o DI | 2d6+1 w/ DI" - That is for EACH attack in a "Dual Whip", which if you look, he calls up and configures two independent attacks in a compound power, using Hero Designer.

Something tells me this number is WAY out of whack with the attacks he is trying to justify...furthermore, or perhaps this is the clincher...is this to be called a Dual or Double Attack? (Even though he claims ambidexterity as well as a single attack this way, it puts him way over if he counts it as a single roll)
- If he claims it is a single attack but with dual items, he is then claiming he can now do 2 x 2d6-1 w/ normal strength...is this right?  (and what would the actual attack roll look like?)

He has a single attack mode, which of course he is off by 1DC but ends up to me at 3d6-1(8 DCs as I informed him before)...

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I hate players like this. Just tell him he can put as many points as he wants in the power, make his builds as complex as he likes, but in the end he will only ever do/roll one attack that does 8 DC. Even if the build comes out at 10 DC or 20 DC, you don't care. He will only do 8 DC. It is your game. He either goes by the cap or he doesn't play or he is just wasting points. 

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What he's done is created a combined attack, which is legal in the game.  Note that he is paying the full cost for both attacks or 2xSTR end cost + both KA end costs.  Each attack is applied to the defenses and CON for stunning separately.  The attacks do not coordinate with each other but can coordinate with another player as normal.

 

Strangely, for a weapon, its not a focus but has a hand requirement?  Also, if it is restrainable, why the required hands? Don't they(restrainable/required hands) both work the same type of limitation on the power?

 

That said, you can always say no.  As GM you have final say over any power that a player wished to be included into your campaign.  Even if it is "rules legal".  You are the final decision maker and can say, "Look, I just think this power is unbalancing for this game."  Sometimes, I will say something to the effect of "Look, I don't like the power design, but I'm willing to let it run for a while in the game.  If its too unbalancing, I get to veto the power later on in the game, no arguments."

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First and foremost, a very well met thankyou to both of you for your observations on this, much appreciated.

Now, to clarify, here is how he explains its operation/function.

The power is NOT considered a real weapon, but some manifestation, similar to that of what the green lantern makes--thus the requires hands and no declared focus, AND if his hands are restrained, he can't use or materialize the "weapon"...he has a form of Cosmic powers, related to Solar Radiation.

For dsatow, your comment,  "Each attack is applied to the defenses and CON for stunning separately.  The attacks do not coordinate with each other but can coordinate with another player as normal." ...are you indicating I SHOULD define these as two distinct attacks in a single form?
If they are considered two distinct attacks, and as he indicates one for each hand, is it then considering as the rules as two independent attacks?  (To me, he is just trying to justify buying higher DCs than I am allowing)

If so, how do I go about treating the attack?  (Making him roll two separate rolls, or a single roll, but as you say, two separate attacks for determining how defenses go against each attack.)

The one thing I can thank him for making me understand the rules better AND GM conventions.

Any other advice on my response above is greatly appreciated if possible.

Chuck D. aka "Jujitsuguy"

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OK.  My issues here really are about the limitations involved in restrainable and the lack of a focus (remembering this thing is in a multipower by the look of it.

 

I can see the restrainable and the hands requirement working together - either the lashes of the whip or the arms may be restrained and while one or other of the whips may be restrained he is unable to use the dual whip at all if one of his hands is restrained.  Not sure it all adds up to a 3/4 limitation but that is another matter.  

 

Thinking about this in play though is another matter.  He says that the whips are not foci.  As such they cannot be taken away from him at all.  But if he the whips are restrainable then he should not be able to switch away from that slot of the multipower until the whips are released - so being able to tangle them up in something would be a severe enough disadvantage for me.  I would want to clarify that with him though.  If he can simply switch the points about to something else then I would make him remove the restrainable aspect of the whips.

 

 

Doc

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On the idea of these being two separate attacks (assuming I allowed this power at all in an 8DC game) I'd adjudicate that using the Multiple Attack rules (CC pg 151).  So, he'd take a Full Phase and be at 1/2 DCV to make two attacks of 2d6+1 at -2 OCV with each.

 

I most certainly would not allow a 4d6 killing attack into an 8DC game unless the character had some very serious penalties in the areas of OCV or a really hefty Side Effect or some similarly large penalty.  If he wants to be 1.5x the damage cap, he has to effectively be 2/3 the norm in some other way.

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Does the character have four arms? If not, then how is he using  two attacks that require  1 1/2  hands? Also, unless you are using hit locations(Please don't do this in a supers setting, just don't...) then cannot use targeting doe not apply.

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Netzilla:

I'm not allowing a 4d6 KA in an (40AP)8DC game...we discussd this and if you look at the 4d6 w/ STR, we did agree it was waay over and capping the attack to 8DCs for normal STR use and for any temporary/boosts that use 2xEND, I do allow a bump (temporarily) of up to 50AP(10DCs), but that is the only leeway I am allowing to keep the game balance.  I tell all my players, that if they can do these things, so will the NPCs...

 

So, as indicated, how do I interpret the power as written...is it two independent attack forms in a single motion--treat as two attacks in a phase--or a single attack that has two separate damage applications(roll damage separately)?  (I'm ok with both, but just want to make sure I am interpreting this correctly?


Grailknight:

The way I'm going to rule on this is I will not allow this limitation, because it is tied to the use of STR Minimum for effective damage a real weapon can do.  The way this is written, is that there is NO declared real weapon, as well as there is NO STR Minimum used for said weapon...it is practically weightless.  To me, this is a way of attempting to buy the power for much less...not a viable limitation as I see it.

In my game, even though it is supers, I am considering using a modified form of to-hit, but not the prescribed one in the Hero-level campaigns...tone it down a little, but make it so the attacks can be a little more dangerous to players and NPCs alike.

Also, for all, thank you for your wisdom on these...helps me understand the implementations a lot better, and hopefully be a more effective player AND GM.

Chuck D. aka "Jujitsuguy"

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13 hours ago, jujitsuguy said:

Team:

I have a player who created a power but not sure how to rule on this or play it out.


I set the Max APs of the game to 40AP or 8DCs attacks(with normal STR), or optionally an additional 10AP or 2DCs if the character was using a temp power that costs 2x END.

So, on one specific power, I have this:

image.png.bc1a59bebf8a8968e35c21942d3203d6.png

 

Now, Ignore the second part (example 4d6 w/ STR), as the player has Density Increase, which we agreed it would put him waaay over the 10 DCs, so he wrote the notes in below.

"2d6-1 w/o DI | 2d6+1 w/ DI" - That is for EACH attack in a "Dual Whip", which if you look, he calls up and configures two independent attacks in a compound power, using Hero Designer.

Something tells me this number is WAY out of whack with the attacks he is trying to justify...furthermore, or perhaps this is the clincher...is this to be called a Dual or Double Attack? (Even though he claims ambidexterity as well as a single attack this way, it puts him way over if he counts it as a single roll)
- If he claims it is a single attack but with dual items, he is then claiming he can now do 2 x 2d6-1 w/ normal strength...is this right?  (and what would the actual attack roll look like?)

He has a single attack mode, which of course he is off by 1DC but ends up to me at 3d6-1(8 DCs as I informed him before)...

 

HKA 1d6 [2d6 w/STR], OAF (-1)

HKA 1d6 [1d6 w/STR], Linked [HKA] (-1/2), OAF (-1)

 

Total Cost: 13 Points

 

 

 

 

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If I'm understanding the effect being described (something like a pair of conjured lashes), then I'd probably build it as an HKA with Autofire (2) attack rather than as compound power consisting of two HKAs.  To fit into the 8 DC cap, that would make it a 2d6 HKA rather than 2d6+1.  Still, the compound power can work, I'd just rule that it requires the use of the Multiple Attack rules to attack with both at the same time.

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12 minutes ago, Netzilla said:

If I'm understanding the effect being described (something like a pair of conjured lashes), then I'd probably build it as an HKA with Autofire (2) attack rather than as compound power consisting of two HKAs.  To fit into the 8 DC cap, that would make it a 2d6 HKA rather than 2d6+1.  Still, the compound power can work, I'd just rule that it requires the use of the Multiple Attack rules to attack with both at the same time.

 

RKA 2d6, Autofire [2-3 Shots] (+1/4), [32c] (+1/4), No Range (-1/2), OAF (-1)

 

Total Cost: 18 Points

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Again your decision, but I think this discussion might prove helpful if an example of how it would play as a combined attack would work.  Also, I think I forgot to add it before (last night I actually got 7 hours sleep), but I generally don't allow any variant 1/2 die forms such as +2 or 1d6-1.  All I have are +1, 1/2 d6 and 1d6 cost points.  

 

So we have two characters.  Target, the human target, has 15 PD (8 resistant) and 15 Con.  Whipping Boy has the whips doing 2d6-1 each (I'll use your build).

 

Whipping Boy strikes the target.  Assuming he's spends 1 end on strength and 2 end per whip, Whipping boy spend 6 end on what I will assume is a 50+% chance to hit.  He only rolls once to hit or miss.

Assuming average damage for both attacks, that would be 6 body and 12 stun on each attack.  Since neither stun nor body exceed the defense.  Target takes nothing.

Target having no attacks, just stands there.

Whipping Boy tries again and gets better than average results doing 8 body and 24 stun on each attack.  Target takes no Body and 9 stun on each attack for a total of 18 Stun.  Target is not Stunned*.  Again he spends 6 End.

Target grimaces but bears it.

Whipping Boy tries again and gets max results doing 11 body and 33 stun on each attack.  Target takes 3 Body and 18 stun on each attack for a total of 6 Body and 18 Stun.  Target is not Stunned*.  Again he spends 6 End.

 

Note that if you rule its not a combined attack but a multiple attack(per Netzilla), Whipping boy will be at 1/2 DCV.  This is the GM's call and perfectly legal and acceptable (at least, I would accept it).  I think that autofire(2) is a better build honestly.

 

The above example has Whipping boy on a roll as he hits three times in a row with better results (average being 50% chance) each time at a 50+% chance to hit.  The three actions in the example he takes have a probability I think (I am no mathematician) of less than 5%.

 

* I am pretty sure that all stun has to be from the single attack or a coordinated attack.

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2 hours ago, jujitsuguy said:

 

So, as indicated, how do I interpret the power as written...is it two independent attack forms in a single motion--treat as two attacks in a phase--or a single attack that has two separate damage applications(roll damage separately)?  (I'm ok with both, but just want to make sure I am interpreting this correctly?

 

Here's how I'd do it, according to my best understanding of Rules as Written:

 

Player: I want to use this attack now on this guy!

Me: You want to use both attacks?

Player: Yeah!

Me: Okay. That's a full phase action, so it takes your whole phase. You are at half DCV. You roll to-hit for each attack twice, each at -2 OCV, and if the first misses, both miss. If they hit, the attacks are applied to defenses seperately. Still want to use both attacks?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary says go for it

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There is nothing preventing you from having a straight HKA 3d6 (4d6 w/STR), OAF (-1) for 22 Points and it's special effect is that it's lashes hitting over and over again.

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4 minutes ago, Cassandra said:

There is nothing preventing you from having a straight HKA 3d6 (4d6 w/STR), OAF (-1) for 22 Points and it's special effect is that it's lashes hitting over and over again.

 

Did you see the 40ap cap mentioned in the original post?

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Just now, Hyper-Man said:

 

Did you see the 40ap cap mentioned in the original post?

 

What does 40ap mean?  I'm a 5th Edition builder.

 

If it's 40 point cap then it's HKA 1 1/2d6 [2 1/2d6 w/STR]

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The campaign has a 40 Active Point / 8 Damage Class limit (with some exceptions allowing a 50AP/10DC attack).  The player in question appears to be trying to circumvent the spirit, if not the letter, of that cap (thus 2x 7 DC attacks as one power).

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I got the player to tell me that it is a single attack and damage is rolled separately, so defenses are individual to the damage rolled.

 

I am good w/ that, because that is how I interpret how the power was built.

Anywho, I really REALLY appreciate the feedback guys, helps me be a better player and definitely GM.

Cheers until my next big dummy question.  ;-)

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2 hours ago, Netzilla said:

The campaign has a 40 Active Point / 8 Damage Class limit (with some exceptions allowing a 50AP/10DC attack).  The player in question appears to be trying to circumvent the spirit, if not the letter, of that cap (thus 2x 7 DC attacks as one power).

 

He would be better off using a EB 4d6 NND attack, maybe in a multipower to provide a variety of attacks.  Plus a EB 8d6 and a RKA 2 1/2d6 just in case.

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Just to examine or add fuel to the fire.  Using my previous examples of Target (15def(8 resist) and 15 Con) vs Whipping Boy.

 

A straight 3d6+1 KA with one level of reduce penetration would do 6/6 Body and 24 Stun average for say 7 End (assuming the KA is 2d6+1 at x2 end and a 15 Str in a supers game).

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I don't see the problem. Two 20 active point attacks fit within a 40 active point cap. As others have pointed out, Autofire allows this. 

 

You could also build it as 40 active points with Reduced Penetration. That's a classic HERO dual wield build.

 

In ALL cases, the campaign imposed limit of 8DC means just that. In effect anyone who builds an 8DC HKA (using compound power builds or otherwise) won't be allowed to use their STR to add to it. And they would get no disadvantage for "No STR Bonus" either for that reason.

 

Just because the Hero Maker output lists the  adds doesn't mean you can have them.

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All:

In the end, the player is admittedly, and HAS admitted to be a power player when it comes to First-Person games, and now also in RPGs....thus, trying to buy every bang for his buck...or attack point for character point, in this case.

 

The way it is written--thanks for pointing this out dsatow--is that it is a single attack, and if it hits the target, two individual damage rolls are done, suspect to each individually offset by defenses.  I have gotten the player to admit that is what his intent was, and we are keeping it thus.

 

Now, for Cassandra and others on their suggestions, yes, all good, but that is not what the character was wanting to do...especially no NND-based attacks...he purposefully wants only Kllling Attacks...again, power-player thinking by my guess.

Anywho, this dead horse not only has been again beaten, but resurrected, killed by beating, and again as a dead horse beaten.  :-p  (Sorry Horse)

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