RDU Neil Posted April 25, 2018 Report Share Posted April 25, 2018 I figured I'd start this thread to redirect the great conversation that had derailed the "Coming Epic Failure..." discussion in Non-gaming.. When last we left the discussion, Ninja-bear had asked... "RDU Neil are you suggesting then that the max weight listed for STR should be considered Pish STR? Cause I like it." My thoughts on this are... 1) I believe this statement in the rules is misguided. "A character’s lifting capacity is indicated on the Strength Table. It represents the maximum amount of weight he can just manage to lift off the ground, stagger with for a step or two, then drop. He can easily carry or lift the weight which he can pick up with his Casual STR." While I agree with the concept, I think it forgets the pushing rule. "stagger with and then drop" sounds like Pushing, not simply spending normal END. For example: a 10 STR can lift 100kg... extremely high, but then the STR is way higher in lift than it should be on every level compared to damage (IMO), but let's go with it. If I was to personally lift a washing machine by myself, I would do exactly that, carry it a little bit, and then drop, assuming I don't have tools and leverage to make it easier. I'd have to rest, shake my arms out, try again, and only have a few of those lifts before I was spent. That, to me, doesn't sound like spending 2 END x10 actions (20 END), and quickly recovering. That to me sounds like I'm spending 7 END (2 plus push for 5) for x3 actions (21 END, actually hurt myself a little), and I'm wasted very quickly. Essentially, to be able to lift 100kg, I'm pushing... not just using my STR as statted. "Max STR" to me says just that, maximum possible... which for a 10 STR NCM, would be 200 kg, or 15 STR... because you can "push" to get to your maximum. Lift needs to involve both "how much can be lifted" (STR) and how long it can be maintained (which is END). The problem is that the STR chart as is, doesn't really address that. To get to this, you just need to adjust the STR table. 10 STR should be 50 kgs, 15 STR should be 100kgs, etc. (Honestly, I hate the lift doubles but damage is linear thing immensely, but that is a different issue, we'll go with it for now.) Therefore, if a 10 STR wants to lift a washing machine equivalent, they are pushing to do so, which is much more appropriate. IMO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dsatow Posted April 25, 2018 Report Share Posted April 25, 2018 I prefer to think of it as a dead lift and still move or maybe drag/push and move. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pattern Ghost Posted April 26, 2018 Report Share Posted April 26, 2018 On 4/25/2018 at 10:37 AM, RDU Neil said: If I was to personally lift a washing machine by myself I think it takes extra effort to move bulky and hard to hold onto items than balanced weights, too. I think if you put the same weight on a bar, it wouldn't take as much effort to move. I can pick up a small human on one shoulder and carry them around all day, and easily fireman's carry someone quite large, but a washing machine that weighs less than either is just a PITA b/c of the awkward grip. You have to bring into play a lot of smaller, weaker muscles when holding a bulky object. Of course, it would be silly to make that level of distinction at the table in an RPG, but for the sake of theoretical discussion, I thought I'd point it out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndianaJoe3 Posted April 26, 2018 Report Share Posted April 26, 2018 This sounds a lot like the Heroic Lift table from APG1. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted April 26, 2018 Report Share Posted April 26, 2018 On 4/25/2018 at 11:37 AM, RDU Neil said: My thoughts on this are... 1) I believe this statement in the rules is misguided. "A character’s lifting capacity is indicated on the Strength Table. It represents the maximum amount of weight he can just manage to lift off the ground, stagger with for a step or two, then drop. He can easily carry or lift the weight which he can pick up with his Casual STR." While I agree with the concept, I think it forgets the pushing rule. "stagger with and then drop" sounds like Pushing, not simply spending normal END. For example: a 10 STR can lift 100kg... extremely high, but then the STR is way higher in lift than it should be on every level compared to damage (IMO), but let's go with it. This does not sound like the Pushing rules from 6eV2 p 134. The average man - even the best athletes and warriors - can NEVER push. An Olympic weightlifter is a specific example on that page of someone who cannot Push. Quote Only in situations requiring true heroism and sacrifice can a normal person Push, and only then at the GM’s discretion. For example, a GM might allow a normal person to Push his STR to lift a burning car off of someone who’s trapped beneath it, since that’s a situation where lives are at stake and the character is putting his own life at risk to save others. Even at that extreme, it's a "maybe". Following that is the rule that Quote characters can only use Pushing for crucial, heroic, or life-saving actions. Characters, even heroes and PCs, cannot Push whenever they want to just to look impressive So no, that "maximum lift and stagger" is not Pushing - it is the limit of your normal STR. Unless, of course, we ignore the RAW (which many games, especially those where every combat starts with Pushed attacks "cuz I'se gettin' a PS 12 recovery anyhoo, so my CvK Character heroically Pushes to get another 2 DC on this unknown opponent") - but if we do, why are we complaining that the RAW does not appropriately reflect normal human STR? We decided not to follow the RAW. We also need to bear in mind that, like most Hero rules, it's intended to be cinematic over realistic. I recall an article back when DC Heroes came out, noting that Batman's 5 STR (normal people had a 2, and +1 doubled it - which feels really familiar, if a tad less granular) acknowledged that world record weightlifting hovered around the top end of 4 STR, but since we are playing SuperHeroes, we will err on the high side and "round up". On 4/25/2018 at 11:37 AM, RDU Neil said: If I was to personally lift a washing machine by myself, I would do exactly that, carry it a little bit, and then drop, assuming I don't have tools and leverage to make it easier. I'd have to rest, shake my arms out, try again, and only have a few of those lifts before I was spent. That, to me, doesn't sound like spending 2 END x10 actions (20 END), and quickly recovering. That to me sounds like I'm spending 7 END (2 plus push for 5) for x3 actions (21 END, actually hurt myself a little), and I'm wasted very quickly. Essentially, to be able to lift 100kg, I'm pushing... not just using my STR as statted. Who says you even have a 10 STR? The average person has an 8. And the system really does not handle balance or bulk well, since it in no way modifies Lift. Of course, most players and GMs conveniently ignore the "maximum lift" being such an effort, so a 15 STR flyer gets to spend 1 END per phase to carry two 100 kg teammates around the battlefield with him at full speed. In any case, I don't think you moving a washing machine is a heroic, cinematic experience, so why would the rules be based around it? EDIT: I am pretty sure I do not have a 10 STR. By the "lift 100 kg comfortably" standard, I'm not sure I meet a 5 STR, but I can maybe meet 8 STR on the "heft and stagger" standard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RDU Neil Posted April 26, 2018 Author Report Share Posted April 26, 2018 The fact that Push was defined as "only for heroic actions" was unknown to me. Has it always been that way? Pushing is exactly how humans exert ourselves at max. That defensive lineman is pushing as he explodes into the offensive tackle, that Olympic level weight lifter is pushing to get to that level of weight... the boxer who is jab, jab, jabbing, will only put his full energy into a punch (and no, not a haymaker) when he gets that opening... the bad fighter is the one who swings hard again and again and quickly tires... etc. I'm looking at human behavior and seeing "Does the system have a way of simulating that?" and pushing really works... from an END spend and getting max levels. So, if I'm saying that I feel certain statements in RAW are misguided, as I did above, I'll append that to include that statement on Pushing. And I'm not saying I have a 10 STR, I'm saying it as theoretical example, since we were discussing what did and did not make sense in terms of Hero examples of building certain characters and reflecting certain real life realities. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
massey Posted April 26, 2018 Report Share Posted April 26, 2018 From the 4th edition Hero Rules, page 169 (not the Big Blue Book, the other one): Quote Occasionally a character may need to exceed the normal limits of his abilities to perform a heroic action. This is called Pushing. PUSHING IN HEROIC CAMPAIGNS A character in a heroic campaign may push his STR up to 5 points with a successful EGO Roll. Also, the character may Push 1 point more than 5 for every 1 point the EGO roll is made by. The character expends 1 extra END for every 1 point the STR is pushed in additional to the normal END expenditure. The GM may provide a bonus or a minus to the character's EGO Roll, depending on how important the Push is. If Andarra is trying to pull a lever that will save the planet Theris from being devoured by the giant amoeba, the GM should give her a bonus to her EGO roll. However, the casual use of Pushing should be discouraged by applying a minus to the character's EGO Roll. How big a bonus (or minus) do you think you should get because you want to move your washing machine? How much of a penalty to your STR score should the GM apply because the washing machine is awkwardly shaped? This Christmas, I was getting our tree out of the attic. A Christmas tree doesn't weigh that much, even in the box. I'm not sure exactly how much is weighs, but it's probably less than 50 lbs. But it was really hard to maneuver down the little folding stairs thing that leads to the attic. The box slipped as I had it in my hands, and it started to fall. I grabbed it at a really weird angle and sprained my wrist trying to keep it from falling. Even if I have an 8 Str (I bet I have more, I'm a big guy), I can't properly use all my strength on this large box when I don't have a good handle on it. I pick up objects that are heavier than that tree all the time. But the awkward shape of it made it way harder than it would have otherwise been. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cassandra Posted April 26, 2018 Report Share Posted April 26, 2018 Bruce Wayne Val Char Cost 20 STR 10 18 DEX 24 20 CON 20 12 BODY 4 18 INT 8 11 EGO 2 20 PRE 10 18 COM 4 8 PD 4 6 ED 2 4 SPD 12 8 REC 0 40 END 0 32 STUN 0 Total Characteristics Cost: 100 Points Cost Skills 5 Cramming 3 High Society 13- 15 Money: Filthy Rich 2 Navigation [Ground] 13- Total Skills Cost: 25 Points Cost Powers 45 Armor +15 rPD +15 rED 50 Multipower (50 Points) 3 u) Invisibility [Hearing], No Fringe, No END (+1/2) 5 u) Multiform: 250 Points 5 u) Multiform: 250 Points 5 u) Multiform: 250 Points 5 u) Multiform: 250 Points 2 u) Running +5", 8x NCM 3 u) STR +30 2 u) Swinging 10", 8x NCM Total Powers Cost: 125 Points Total Cost: 250 Points 150+ Disadvantages 5 DNPC: Alfred Pennyworth (Useful Normal) 8- 10 DNPC: Wayne Enterprise Personnel (Normal) 8- 10 DNPC: Vicki Vale (Unaware Useful Normal) 8- 10 Hunted: Catwoman (As Powerful/NCI/Mild) 8- 20 Normal Characteristics Maxima 20 PsyL: Code Versus Killing (Common/Total) 20 PsyL: Protective Of Innocents (Very Common/Strong) 5 SocL: Famous (Occasionally/Minor) Total Disadvantages Cost: 250 Points Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pattern Ghost Posted April 26, 2018 Report Share Posted April 26, 2018 That's a build. Now put words with it that relate it to the conversation at hand about NCM and STR. massey 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Shadow Posted April 26, 2018 Report Share Posted April 26, 2018 I played this Batman rip off homage for several years. He never had NCM. It just didn't seem right. Nighthawk Val Char Cost Roll Notes 25 STR 15 14- Lift 800.0kg; 5d6 [2] 27 DEX 51 14- OCV: 9/DCV: 9 25 CON 30 14- 18 BODY 16 13- 18 INT 8 13- PER Roll 13- 20 EGO 20 13- ECV: 7 40 PRE 30 17- PRE Attack: 8d6 14 COM 2 12- 10+8 PD 5 Total: 10/18 PD (0/8 rPD) 10+8 ED 5 Total: 10/18 ED (0/8 rED) 8 SPD 43 Phases: 2, 3, 5, 6, 8, 9, 11, 12 15 REC 10 65 END 8 65 STUN 21 Total Characteristic Cost: 270 Movement: Running: 9"/18" Leaping: 20"/20" Swimming: 2"/4" Swinging: 40"/60" Cost Powers END 16 Insulated resistweave : Armor (8 PD/8 ED) (24 Active Points); IIF (-¼), Real Armor (-¼) 31 Energized Cape: Force Field (50 PD/50 ED) (Protect Carried Items); 1 Continuing Charge lasting 1 Extra Phase (-1 ½), Lockout - Nighthawk may take no actions while cape is energized (-½), OIF (Focus - Capeand Utility Belt; -½) [1 cc] 11 Energized Cape II: Knockback Resistance -20"; 1 Continuing Charge lasting 1 Extra Phase (-1 ½), Linked (Energized Cape; -½), OIF (Focus - Cape and Utility Belt; -½) [1 cc] 40 Utility Belt: Multipower, 60-point reserve, (60 Active Points); all slots OIF (-½) 1u 1) Grapple and Swingline: Swinging 20" (20 Active Points); OAF (-1), no Noncombat movement (-¼) 2 2u 2) Stun Disk: Energy Blast 5d6, 16 Recoverable Charges (+½) (37 Active Points); OAF (-1), Range Based On Strength (-¼) [16 rc] 2u 3) Plastique: Energy Blast 6d6, Explosion (+½) (45 Active Points); 6 Charges (-¾), OIF (-½), Range Based On Strength (-¼) [6] 1u 4) Flash Pellets: Sight Group Flash 2d6, Area Of Effect (One Hex; +½) (15 Active Points); 8 Charges (-½), OIF (-½), Range Based On Strength (-¼) [8] 1u 5) Gas Pellets: Energy Blast 3d6, 8 Continuing Charges lasting 1 Turn each (+0), No Normal Defense ([Standard for Gas Attacks]; +1), Area Of Effect (5" Radius; +1), Continuous (+1) (60 Active Points); Independent (-2), OAF (-1), Range Based On Strength (-¼) [8 cc] 1u 6) Smoke Pellets: Darkness to Sight Group 2" radius, 6 Continuing Charges lasting 1 Minute each (+0) (20 Active Points); OIF (-½), Range Based On Strength (-¼) [6 cc] 1u 7) Shurikens: Killing Attack - Ranged ½d6, Armor Piercing (+½), Autofire (5 shots; +½), 16 Recoverable Charges (+½) (25 Active Points); OIF (-½), Range Based On Strength (-¼) [16 rc] 1u 8 ) Knife: Killing Attack - Hand-To-Hand ½d6 (1d6+1 w/STR) (10 Active Points); OIF (-½) 1 1u 9) Nightvision Visor: Nightvision, Telescopic (+1 versus Range Modifier): +1 (6 Active Points); OIF (-½) 1u 10) Rebreather: Life Support (Self-Contained Breathing), 4 Continuing Charges lasting 1 Hour each (+0) (10 Active Points); OIF (-½) [4 cc] 1u 11) Mini Radio/Television Transceiver & Radar Detector: High Range Radio Perception (Radio Group) (12 Active Points); OAF (-1) 3u 12) Tracer Bugs: Radio Group Images Increased Size (32" radius; +1 ¼), +/-2 to PER Rolls, Sticky (+½), 6 Recoverable Continuing Charges lasting 1 Week each (+2) (52 Active Points); OIF (-½), Range Based On Strength (-¼) [6 rc] 1u 13) Mini Camcorder: Eidetic Memory, Limited Power Sound and Images only (+0) (5 Active Points); OIF (-½) 1u 14) Crime-scene Kit: +3 with Criminolgy, Criminal Science and Deduction rolls (9 Active Points); OAF (-1), 8 Charges (-½) 1u 15) Universal Antidote: Life Support (Immunity All terrestrial diseases and biowarfare agents; Immunity: All terrestrial poisons and chemical warfare agents), 6 Continuing Charges lasting 1 Hour each (+0) (20 Active Points); OIF (-½) [6 cc] 1u 16) Lockpicks: +3 with Lockpicking (6 Active Points); OAF (-1) 1u 17) Plastic Handcuffs: Entangle 2 ½d6, 3 DEF, Takes No Damage From Attacks Limited Group (+¼) (37 Active Points); Set Effect (Hands Only/Feet Only) (-1), Entangle Has 1 BODY (-½), No Range (-½), OIF (-½), Cannot Form Barriers (-¼), Nonresistant DEF (-¼), 8 Boostable Charges (-¼) [8 bc] 2u 18) Bolos: Entangle 4d6, 4 DEF, Entangle And Character Both Take Damage (+¼) (50 Active Points); 3 Recoverable Charges (-¾), OIF (-½), Range Based On Strength (-¼) [3 rc] 1u 19) Laser Torch: Killing Attack - Ranged ½d6, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +½), Penetrating (x3; +1 ½) (30 Active Points); No Range (-½), OIF (-½) 18 Line Gun: Multipower, 40-point reserve, (40 Active Points); all slots OAF (-1), Only In Heroic Identity (-¼) 1u 1) Swingline I: Swinging 20" (20 Active Points); OAF (-1), Only In Heroic Identity (-¼) 2 1u 2) Swingline II: Leaping +15" (5" forward, 10" upward) (15 Active Points); Upward Movement Only (-1), OAF (-1), no Noncombat movement (-¼), Only In Heroic Identity (-¼) 1 1u 3) Swingline III: + 5 with climbing (10 Active Points); OAF (-1), Only In Heroic Identity (-¼) 1u 4) Grab-line: Telekinesis (10 STR) (15 Active Points); OAF (-1), Only to pull objects towards user Power loses about a third of its effectiveness (-½), Affects Whole Object (-¼), Limited Range (-¼), Only In Heroic Identity (-¼) 1 Jade Dragon style Martial Arts Maneuver OCV DCV Notes 5 Defensive Strike +1 +3 8d6 Strike 4 Martial Strike +0 +2 10d6 Strike 4 Fast Strike +2 +0 10d6 Strike 4 Martial Dodge -- +5 Dodge, Affects All Attacks, Abort 4 Martial Block +2 +2 Block, Abort 3 Martial Throw +0 +1 8d6 +v/5, Target Falls 5 Offensive Strike -2 +1 12d6 Strike 5 Takeaway +0 +0 Grab Weapon, 50 STR to take weapon away 3 Flying Tackle +0 -1 8d6 +v/5 Strike; You Fall, Target Falls; FMove 5 Joint Break -1 -2 Grab One Limb; HKA 2d6 +1 , Disable 12 +3 HTH Damage Class(es) Perks 54 Batcave: 61 Nightcruiser: 46 Nightcycle: 58 Nightwing: 56 Nightcutter: 15 Money: Filthy Rich 4 Fringe Benefit: Corporate Employee, International Driver's License, Local Police Powers, Passport 6 Reputation: Relentless (A large group) 11-, +4/+4d6 (8 Active Points); Only In Heroic Identity (-¼) 7 Reputation: Feared Crimefighter (A large group) 14-, +3/+3d6 (9 Active Points); Only In Heroic Identity (-¼) 10 Secret Passage: WGE to Batcave, Sewer System to HCPD Evidence Depository, Utilities Tunnel to Federal Building, Utilities Tunnel to Toddenberry Asylum, Batcave to Nightcutter wharf and Nightwing hanger: Custom Perk 3 Well-Connected 8 1) Contact: Alexander Ringwald - Hudson City Police Commissioner (Contact has access to major institutions, Contact has very useful Skills or resources, Contact limited by identity, Very Good relationship with Contact) (9 Active Points) 14- 8 2) Contact: Cindy Gutierrez-Sosa - Reporter (Contact has access to major institutions, Contact has significant Contacts of his own, Contact has useful Skills or resources, Good relationship with Contact) (9 Active Points) 14- 6 3) Contact: Jimmy the Geek - Information Broker (Contact has significant Contacts of his own, Contact limited by identity, Very Good relationship with Contact) (7 Active Points) 14- 5 4) Contact: Jocko Muldoon - Longshoreman (Contact has useful Skills or resources, Contact limited by identity, Good relationship with Contact) (6 Active Points) 14- 14 5) Contact: Lefty Strong - Mid-ranked hood (Contact has significant Contacts of his own, Contact limited by identity), Organization Contact (x3) (15 Active Points) 14- 5 6) Contact: Raven Simone - Prostitute (Contact has access to major institutions, Contact limited by identity, Good relationship with Contact) (6 Active Points) 14- Talents 17 Combat Sense (Sense) 13- 16 Crippling Blow 5 Resistance (5 points) Skills 3 Acrobatics 14- 3 Acting 17- 9 Analyze: Combat 16- 3 Breakfall 14- 3 Climbing 14- 3 Combat Driving 14- 3 Combat Piloting 14- 10 +5 with Stun Disks 15 +5 with Martial Arts 5 +1 with DCV 10 +3 with DCV (15 Active Points); Requires A Reputation roll - Feared Crimefighter Roll (-½) 3 Computer Programming 13- 3 Concealment 13- 3 Contortionist 14- 3 Conversation 17- 5 Criminology 14- 3 Deduction 13- 5 Defense Maneuver I-II 3 Forensic Medicine 13- 3 Interrogation 17- 1 Inventor 8- 3 Lockpicking 14- 4 Navigation (Air, Land, Marine) 13- 0 Paramedics 8- 3 Persuasion 17- 1 PS: Multi-billionaire (Everyman Skill) 13- 3 PS: Businessman 13- 3 Security Systems 13- 3 Shadowing 13- 40 +4 Overall 3 Stealth 14- 3 Streetwise 17- 3 Systems Operation 13- 4 TF: Common Motorized Ground Vehicles, Small Motorized Ground Vehicles, Free with Combat Driving, Helicopters, Small Motorized Boats, Small Planes, Submarines, Two-Wheeled Motorized Ground Vehicles 3 Linguist 1 1) Language: Arabic (basic conversation) 2 2) Language: Cantonese (completely fluent) (3 Active Points) 0 3) Language: English (idiomatic; literate) (5 Active Points) 2 4) Language: French (completely fluent) (3 Active Points) 2 5) Language: German (completely fluent) (3 Active Points) 2 6) Language: Italian (completely fluent) (3 Active Points) 1 7) Language: Japanese (fluent conversation) (2 Active Points) 1 8 ) Language: Mandarin (fluent conversation) (2 Active Points) 2 9) Language: Portugese (completely fluent) (3 Active Points) 2 10) Language: Russian (completely fluent) (3 Active Points) 2 11) Language: Spanish (completely fluent) (3 Active Points) 3 Scholar 3 1) KS: Hudson City Organized Crime (4 Active Points) 13- 1 2) KS: Hudson City Power-brokers (2 Active Points) 11- 2 3) KS: Hudson City Street Gangs (3 Active Points) 12- 4 4) KS: Incredible Trivia (5 Active Points) 14- 1 5) KS: Rogues Gallery (2 Active Points) 11- 3 6) AK: Northern Atlantic Seaboard 13- 5 7) CK: Hudson City 14- 3 Scientist 2 1) SS: Criminal Science 13- (3 Active Points) 2 2) SS: Psychology 13- (3 Active Points) 2 3) SS: Sociology 13- (3 Active Points) Total Powers & Skill Cost: 826 Total Cost: 1095 200+ Disadvantages 10 Dependent NPC: Police Commissioner Alexander Ringwald 14- (Slightly Less Powerful than the PC; Useful Noncombat Position or Skills) 5 Dependent NPC: Dr. Thomas Leslie, MD 8- (Normal; Useful Noncombat Position or Skills) 5 Dependent NPC: Cindy Gutierrez-Sosa 8- (Normal; Useful Noncombat Position or Skills) 10 Dependent NPC: Jimmy the Geek 11- (Normal; Useful Noncombat Position or Skills) 15 Mystery DNPCs 10 Distinctive Features: tall, grim and silent (Concealable; Noticed and causes unease; Detectable By Commonly-Used Senses) 50 Hunted: Rogues Gallery of Villians - incluing Harlequin, Crimelord, the Doberman, Presto the Magician, and the Black Cat 20 Psychological Limitation: Devoted to Justice (Common, Total) 15 Psychological Limitation: In love with the Black Cat (Common, Strong) 15 Psychological Limitation: Driven to protect innocents (Common, Strong) 0 Psychological Limitation: Reluctance to Kill (Uncommon, Moderate, Custom Adder) 15 Reputation: Scary pointy-eared guy who inspires bed-wetting, 11- (Extreme) 15 Secret Identity: Brett Walker (Frequently, Major) 10 Vulnerability: 2 x STUN Sonics (Uncommon) 700 Experience Points Total Disadvantage Points: 1095 Background/History: Hudson City. Twenty-two years ago. It was a warm summer's evening as Superior Court Judge George Walker, his wife Anne and their young son Brett strolled through LeMastre Park. Suddenly out of the shadows a lone gunman confronted them. He demanded their money and Mrs. Walker's jewelry; when the Judge resisted the gunman shot him. Anne Walker screamed and the killer's rage found a second target. Splattered with the blood of his parents young Brett locked his eyes on the killer, burning the man's face into his memory. Police sirens began to wail and the murderer fled into the night. For over a year Brett floundered as he sunk deeply into depression, then all that changed when a schoolmate gave him a copy of "Batman". Immediately Brett saw the parallels, why they both even had the same initials. Brett swore on his parent's graves to devote his life to bringing criminals to justice, to protect the innocent and to someday avenge their murders. Hudson City. Today. A dark avenger stalks the city. A grim, shadowy figure seen only at night. He is a human time bomb that explodes in the faces of criminals, whether they be street thugs, crime bosses or super-villians none are beyond his reach. He is resourceful and fearless, terrifying and relentless. He is justice. He is...NIGHTHAWK! Personality/Motivation: In public Brett Walker doesn't seem to have a care in the world and is just a friendly, happy guy and a bit of a doofus at times, who happens to be richer than God. But once away from prying eyes he becomes the dark avenger who wrings fear from the criminal scum who thought themselves immune to it. Finances: As the sole stockholder of Walker Global Enterprises Brett is worth an estimated 48 billion dollars. Home: The Walker House, a huge 169 room, 200 year old mansion set on 260 acres of wooded land on Walker Point overlooking the Stewart River that bisects Hudson City and not far from LeMastre Park. Job: Avenging Crime Fighter Chairman of the Board - Walker Global Enterprises Education: Brett has never stayed anyplace long enough to actually earn a degree. Ambitions: To take Hudson City back from the criminals and return it to decent people. Quote: The Scum thought they ruled the night ... they were wrong. Appearance: A young and very physically fit Alec Baldwin. As he looked at about the time he made The Hunt for Red October. Ninja-Bear, RDU Neil and Amorkca 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RDU Neil Posted April 27, 2018 Author Report Share Posted April 27, 2018 In wrestling with the "what is normal?" issue, and how does that translate to "essentially human characters who have superhuman levels of success and survivability" in my campaign, I came up with the concept of the Adept. Within the world, there were classifications for the kinds of metahumans that were known and studied/cataloged (the Kirby-Ellis Scale I called it... heh) and it took notice of people who, in any scientific examination, would be nothing more than an incredibly fit and healthy human being, but seemed capable of doing incredible things. I took the concept from the idea that even in the real world humans can demonstrate some really amazing feats, or train to be really really incredible at one or two tightly controlled and defined activities... but most of these feats are one-offs or only in a very controlled environment. What if there were humans who could perform at that level consistently and in chaotic, ad hoc environments (like combat)? These were called Adepts. They were hard to identify except in what they demonstrated over time. Nothing that was "impossible" just usually improbable, except these Adepts do it all the time. (It was usually some kind of special origina... ninja training or traumatic event, whatever... that enabled someone to break through normal human levels and become an adept.) From a stat point of view, Adepts had no limitations except what we as a play group made sense... so 27-30 Dex and 6-7 SPDs were possible. 25 STR, etc. The idea that the amazing aspects of humanity that show up in rare and single instances across the population, well these Adepts had many of those aspects in one person. It was a nice conceit, and was a recognized form of "otherness" within the game world, even though they couldn't technically be called metahuman, they were a recognized class of such. So, in a game where there were plenty of characters that had stats that fell within NCM, there were the truly elite who could be more than that. The point was, even these Adepts were outclassed by true metahumans. Once the games started to move into the Avengers/Authority level of power, as some of our sub-campaigns did, the Batman/Daredevil types often couldn't keep up. This was felt as appropriate for the way our games played out... addressing Massey's issue of not trying to force certain character concepts into every campaign. If an Adept ALSO had access to high-tech, or magic or whatever, then maybe they'd gain the raw power and defenses to stand with the Vanguard... but no, none of us ever felt that a pure Batman type belonged at that level. To me, this was always an important aspect of defining the world you are gaming in. So many comic book tropes simply don't translate well if you try to put ALL of them in the same campaign and hope for consistency and verisimilitude. Comics aren't consistent, and contradict themselves all the time. So a Champions campaign needs to create internally consistent standards for itself, and then that helps define which of the tropes will be acceptable, and which will not. A good test of that, IMO, is a Batman type character... how they are statted and defined, and what precedent does that set for the campaign. If Doc Shadow's version above is acceptable (and for the most part, he'd have fit right into my campaign as a very experienced Adept character) then that sets a precedent for what is acceptable in the game. If you also have well trained spec-ops agent types, whose stats are all in the NCM range, but are still considered really good/well trained humans, then, IMO, you have to explain why they are so much less than the "also human" Batman-esque guy. For me, this explanation was the Adept class. The one in ten thousand highly trained spec-ops dudes, who transcends and becomes legendary. To me, it is about having an internally consistent universe, more than obeying certain source material tropes (that often make little sense in the first place). Hugh Neilson and Zephrosyne 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted April 27, 2018 Report Share Posted April 27, 2018 23 hours ago, RDU Neil said: The fact that Push was defined as "only for heroic actions" was unknown to me. Has it always been that way? I believe Push has always been defined that way. We played a lot in the early days (1e/2e) and always interpreted it that way, and I don't think we would have, if a Push had simply been described as "putting your all" into the effort. I recall an early example that this is the "woman moves burning car to save trapped child" example of a person who exceeds all normal and rational limits in a time of crisis, not something that one can simply choose to do. I also think that it is frequently not played that way, based on anecdotal evidence largely from these Boards. 23 hours ago, RDU Neil said: That defensive lineman is pushing as he explodes into the offensive tackle, that Olympic level weight lifter is pushing to get to that level of weight... the boxer who is jab, jab, jabbing, will only put his full energy into a punch (and no, not a haymaker) when he gets that opening... the bad fighter is the one who swings hard again and again and quickly tires... etc. I'm looking at human behavior and seeing "Does the system have a way of simulating that?" and pushing really works... from an END spend and getting max levels. The cinematic reality of the system, I think, has taken the action movie and RPG tradition that one can engage in combat all day without adverse long-term effects. Long term END was one answer to that. How many people can run at top speed all day long? Well, with 12 meters running (1 END per phase), everyone - 2 END spent per turn, or even 3 or 4 if you have that NCM max of 4 SPD, will recover each PS 12. "Putting your full energy" into a punch, or a blast, or a whatever, is simply using full power. Realistically, maybe that should exhaust the character faster than the game simulates, but action movie and gaming fun have always taken priority over realism. And I would say that "going all out strike" probably is a combat maneuver of some sort - maybe a martial maneuver more than a haymaker, as that Boxer likely has more than one maneuver. The Olympic weightlifter is a problem in pretty much every RPG, where X STR allows you to lift, carry, etc. a fixed and non-variable weight. Bulk and leverage typically are not considered, as Massey's example illustrates. EDIT: Maybe what we need is better defined "normal" character rules. Perhaps using full potential (like your full STR) requires an EGO roll, or some other roll, for normal people, but our Heroes are made of sterner stuff, and can always perform to full potential. 23 hours ago, RDU Neil said: So, if I'm saying that I feel certain statements in RAW are misguided, as I did above, I'll append that to include that statement on Pushing. And I'm not saying I have a 10 STR, I'm saying it as theoretical example, since we were discussing what did and did not make sense in terms of Hero examples of building certain characters and reflecting certain real life realities. If I decide to make Pushing something anyone and everyone can do as a matter of course, then any impact on the STR lifts becoming unrealistic as a consequence can't be blamed on the RAW - that is being caused, or exacerbated, by the RATW (Rules as Tinkered With). To me, the analysis is not "I think I have a 10 STR, but I cannot heft a washing machine, so the rules are wrong". It is "I cannot heft a washing machine, so by the rules I do not have a 10 STR". However, by the rules, having a 10 STR does not mean I can just heft that washing machine - it means I can get it barely off the ground and stagger a couple of steps before dropping it again. That sounds a lot more like an average person, so maybe the rules are not so far off after all. But gamers read "can lift 100 kg" and interpret it to mean "can lift 100 kg and haul it around without any trouble at all", which means now they want to know how much he can just barely lift, which should be way more. The RAW answer is that 100 kg is "how much he can just barely lift" and the weight he can lift and haul around with a minor END expenditure is much less. But my 10 STR character who wants to pick up his KO'd buddy in a burning warehouse, sprint full speed to the window, leap out and Acrobatically flip during his descent to reduce falling damage using Breakfall does not want to hear that his 10 STR allows him to barely heft his buddy and stagger a few feet forward. I'm not sure when that "lift" became "just barely, and only stagger a bit forward", though. I think most Hero players think their average STR character can easily carry another person. Maybe 4e added the "lift and stagger", and quite possibly in response to the "seriously, an above average person can chug along carrying a couple of other people?" issue. massey 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted April 27, 2018 Report Share Posted April 27, 2018 12 minutes ago, RDU Neil said: In wrestling with the "what is normal?" issue, and how does that translate to "essentially human characters who have superhuman levels of success and survivability" in my campaign, I came up with the concept of the Adept. Within the world, there were classifications for the kinds of metahumans that were known and studied/cataloged (the Kirby-Ellis Scale I called it... heh) and it took notice of people who, in any scientific examination, would be nothing more than an incredibly fit and healthy human being, but seemed capable of doing incredible things. ********************* To me, this was always an important aspect of defining the world you are gaming in. So many comic book tropes simply don't translate well if you try to put ALL of them in the same campaign and hope for consistency and verisimilitude. Comics aren't consistent, and contradict themselves all the time. So a Champions campaign needs to create internally consistent standards for itself, and then that helps define which of the tropes will be acceptable, and which will not. A good test of that, IMO, is a Batman type character... how they are statted and defined, and what precedent does that set for the campaign. If Doc Shadow's version above is acceptable (and for the most part, he'd have fit right into my campaign as a very experienced Adept character) then that sets a precedent for what is acceptable in the game. If you also have well trained spec-ops agent types, whose stats are all in the NCM range, but are still considered really good/well trained humans, then, IMO, you have to explain why they are so much less than the "also human" Batman-esque guy. For me, this explanation was the Adept class. The one in one in ten thousand highly trained spec-ops dudes, who transcends and becomes legendary. To me, it is about having an internally consistent universe, more than obeying certain source material tropes (that often make little sense in the first place). I like this. It is also noteworthy from a game perspective that, as the CU developed over the years, it developed that the "highly trained normals" typically had DEX and SPD stats well above most "superpowered" characters. We would never have given that "trained normal" a 50 STR or CON, but 23 or 25? Sure. But DEX and SPD? You don't even get into the clubhouse without a minimum 29/6! Meanwhile, those aliens and cyborgs and mutants run around with 23/5 all the time. I agree it comes down to defining the game you want to play. I don't believe any rendition of Batman suggests "oh, anyone could do that if they put their mind to it", but that his focus and training combine in a unique individual who stands out from the masses. But that's just a Hero - doesn't it describe all cinematic action heroes and RPG player characters? Your model works if the group wants a game where the normal humans simply can't keep up. That's more "The Boys" or "Watchmen" then "Avengers" or "Justice League", to me. In a classic four colour game, we want the Batman, Hawkeye, Black Widow and Green Arrow characters to be able to stand beside the Supermans and the Thors because we value consistency with the source material. But we have to pick which source material. As I recall, pre-4e, the bigger question tended to focus around resistant defenses, as clearly those trained normals aren't bulletproof, and spandex doesn't stop rifle rounds. Then we got "Combat Luck". Viewed one way, that was a kludge to make these "normal human being" characters survivable when, really, they should not survive. Viewed another, this was reasoning from effect - the core of Hero system. These characters are routinely exposed to a hail of gunfire, yet rarely if ever wounded. DCV alone doesn't get that result, so how can we build that effect with the Hero System tools? Pre 4e, our group tended towards limited Damage Reduction requiring the character be conscious and mobile - he took damage, but with a high DCV to avoid most damage and DR to blunt the BOD, especially, they could survive with human level defenses and a few rDEF from a costume. No one would build that way now - combat luck is a much easier and more effective fix. But I wonder how it would do if proposed for a Batman writeup on an open forum working from only the 1e/2e rules. Probably about as well as some munchkin wanting Danger Sense in his SpiderPowers EC, had Stan Lee not done it first, and sold millions of copies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted April 27, 2018 Report Share Posted April 27, 2018 23 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said: As covered in the new thread on the Champions board,. pushing is "a thing" that, RAW, is extremely restricted. Normal people can NEVER push - right from 6e. An Olympic weightlifter is specifically noted as "cannot push to lift more". Even heroes can Push under only exceptional circumstances, not "Cuz I'll gets me a PS 12 so I'se gonna spend extra END to hit harder". Many games ignore those rules - the results of ignoring the rules is not the game system's fault. Let's tie this back to the thread - Hero rules are about cinematic reality. Here we have Cinematic Batman - should he not be able to accomplish cinematic action hero feats? Moved a lot of quotes from the NGD 20 hours ago, Ninja-Bear said: Back to Batman. I remember Steve Long noted in Dark Champions that some characters seem to work on two different character sheets. One for classic Champions and one for Dark Champions (which is closer to Heroic level)- my words. So to Answer your question, I think it really does come down to game expectations. In a JL cartoon, how often does he even have to push his strength to throw goons ? Or pick up big rubble? Or even never gets crushed but is trapped under rubble? So strength 25 isn’t out of question. Now those same stunts in Batman:TAS ? Harder pressed iirc. So maybe 20 STR - just so I don’t have to deal with 1/2 die, is more in order. I think this aligns well with RDUNeil's comments above - it's largely about defining campaign expectations. If you're expecting to play Justice League Batman, and you get Watchmen Rorschach instead, while Captain Atom/Dr. Manhattan gets to keep the same power scale in either game, that's not a good result. The player expectations and campaign expectations don't align. 20 hours ago, zslane said: Well, of course. But there's "cinematic" and then there's "pure fantasy". John McClane can run around and fight the bad guys while his feet are bleeding because he's a cinematic action hero. Batman shouldn't be defying physics (and fundamental human physiology) under the rubric of being in a "cinematic" setting. There are limits to what normal humans should be able to do even in a superhero universe. And while Batman may be extraordinary, he is still extraordinary within the boundaries of "normal human", because that's what he is. A normal human (not a mutant, not an alien, not a sorceror, not a result of scientific enhancement, etc.). I think "cinematic reality" is defined by the source material. If I'm playing Dark Champions, I expect McClane to fall within the range of that genre. But if I'm playing Four Colour Champions, then I expect my character to fall within that genre's expectations. BTW, why is a mutant not a "normal human" outside his mutations? More to the point, isn't a Sorceror just a different type of highly trained normal? Bruce Wayne learned science and martial arts. Stephen Strange learned spellcasting and the mystic arts. At least Bats' training was physical, so doesn't he have a better claim to high physical stats? Again, it comes down to campaign expectations, but if I am expecting an MCU game, then Black Widow, Black Panther and Black Arrow Hawkeye should be playable, useful characters alongside Cap (who in many writes, is simply a man enhanced to peak human physical abilities, driven and trained to maximize his potential - not MCU, where the serum has moved his STR, at least, beyond human, but most of his comic book career), Iron Man (who is a normal guy, albeit an incredibly smart one, inside that shell) and Thor. 20 hours ago, Ninja-Bear said: To clairify your last question. Yes Batman should be able to do what a cinematic hero is able to do. And how everything else in this game, Cinematic expectations should be expressed before building a character. The problem is a lot of different cinema genres, as you point out above. Aligning everyone's expectations is important if everyone is going to enjoy the game. I've certainly played in some great games where a character concept or two had to be put on the shelf for another time as that character would just not fit with this game. 14 hours ago, Ternaugh said: I'd be much more interested in a game mechanics argument in the proper thread. Or, barring that, convert Batman to Toon for me. OK. I don't recall the Toon mechanics that well, so I'll leave that to someone else. Cut & paste I can do! One further comment - adjusting the STR chart. Perhaps the easiest adjustment would be to add "Can barely lift and stagger forward" at the top of the column for maximum lift, and add columns like "Casual lift", "Encumbered" and "Heavy Load". That would practically halve the lift for those of us who have always used "10 STR can lift 100 kg" to mean "Spend 1 END and fly around carrying your buddy or a washing machine - both if you have STR 15" RDU Neil 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted April 27, 2018 Report Share Posted April 27, 2018 You know, it's funny that "lift" is fixed and virtually everything else in Hero is roll-based. Maybe STR rolls should be used when you try to lift things, with a 10 STR providing an 11- chance to heft and stagger forward with 100 kg, and penalties applied for each doubling of that weight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ninja-Bear Posted April 27, 2018 Report Share Posted April 27, 2018 Hugh my son’s Archer is called Black Arrow! ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ninja-Bear Posted April 27, 2018 Report Share Posted April 27, 2018 I also remember that another problem with NCM was the Defender issue. I.e, I buy my stats up to NCM take the discount and buy all my powers through a focus. Some felt that this was double dipping. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RDU Neil Posted April 27, 2018 Author Report Share Posted April 27, 2018 11 minutes ago, Hugh Neilson said: The problem is a lot of different cinema genres, as you point out above. Aligning everyone's expectations is important if everyone is going to enjoy the game. I've certainly played in some great games where a character concept or two had to be put on the shelf for another time as that character would just not fit with this game. This... a hundred times this! Aligning expectations, and realizing that not every build or character concept fits every game is really at the core. We used to joke about someone building a Batman-esque character... "Which one? The pulp crime fighter? The dark knight detective? The master martial artist? Or the one who defeats an army of white martians with a book of matches?" It required the group really talking about expectations and standards for the campaign at hand, and building characters accordingly. One of the worst things that can happen is a player building their character in a vacuum and expecting the game play to just accommodate him. The beauty and bane of Hero is that things can be built in so many different ways, that there is no portability between campaigns. The "right build" is campaign specific. Hugh Neilson 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RDU Neil Posted April 27, 2018 Author Report Share Posted April 27, 2018 50 minutes ago, Hugh Neilson said: Again, it comes down to campaign expectations, but if I am expecting an MCU game, then Black Widow, Black Panther and Black Arrow Hawkeye should be playable, useful characters alongside Cap (who in many writes, is simply a man enhanced to peak human physical abilities, driven and trained to maximize his potential - not MCU, where the serum has moved his STR, at least, beyond human, but most of his comic book career), Iron Man (who is a normal guy, albeit an incredibly smart one, inside that shell) and Thor. Yeah... we basically had this very discussion in one form or another over years of playing. We all wanted the BW/BP/Hawkeye types to be feasible... so they would all have been Adepts... or in Black Panther's case, he, like Cap, had the special herb/serum that made him more than human. All of them were playable together, as well as Iron Man types (which brought up a separate conversation... what was technology capable of in the game world?)... but we tended to balk at "Thor" Once you started getting into gods/demi-gods and such... instead of toning them down, or pushing the others too far beyond concept... the play group was comfortable with the idea of "There are power levels... Delta, Gamma, Beta and Alpha class metahumans) and some just Out Power others. (These levels were defined by the combat capacity vs. normal police/military action, damage survivability and pure destructive scale.) Most traditional 4Ed starting PCs were probably Gamma level, and experienced PCs with real power tended to be in the Beta level (most Avengers level). The most powerful PCs, over time, became Alpha class level beings, and characters of lower levels, let alone normal humans, were often outclassed... and that was ok. (We also had Omega Level classification, which was when things got truly cosmic and broke boundaries of human scale definition, etc.) This helped players have an idea/concept of power level for their PC. If a Delta level was like a street level dude, or a New Mutant (original '80s era) with unreliable powers... that could work. If the concept was that the type of powers that New Mutant had could become more and more powerful over time... cool. Maybe after years of playing, that character is now a highely effective Beta Class threat level. Where some other character concepts were like, "I'll never be more than a street fighter... it just isn't in concept." Then ok, as well. But everyone understood what that meant and were willing to retire, sideline, a character when they didn't work... or enjoyed being the fish out of water who struggled beside demi-gods, etc. Again... giving the PCs an internal, campaign consistent guide to match to their expectations is helpful. It gives a way to discuss character concept and playability in a relatively objective way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greywind Posted April 27, 2018 Report Share Posted April 27, 2018 I used to work in a warehouse. It doesn't take 10 STR to lift a washer. The dryers, on the other hand... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ninja-Bear Posted April 27, 2018 Report Share Posted April 27, 2018 My washer is a lot easier to move if you grab it from the inside. (mines a top loader). Now back to topic. At 25 STR, what is Batman lifting that would break Cinematic reality? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted April 27, 2018 Report Share Posted April 27, 2018 1 hour ago, Ninja-Bear said: I also remember that another problem with NCM was the Defender issue. I.e, I buy my stats up to NCM take the discount and buy all my powers through a focus. Some felt that this was double dipping. Yup - put any limitation on it (ANY limitation - how about "OIHID", or potentially even a -0 limitation) and the NCM rule stopped applying. 19 minutes ago, Ninja-Bear said: My washer is a lot easier to move if you grab it from the inside. (mines a top loader). Now back to topic. At 25 STR, what is Batman lifting that would break Cinematic reality? 800 kg = 1763.6981 pounds. Not quite a ton. I guess it depends on which "cinematic" we are discussing. As the Bats discussion in DC Heroes years back noted, this is well beyond Olympic weightlifting records - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_world_records_in_Olympic_weightlifting Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
massey Posted April 27, 2018 Report Share Posted April 27, 2018 In Batman: TAS, there were a number of occasions where the bad guy would drive off in a car, and Batman goes running along the rooftops and manages to keep up with them. Realistically, it's nutty to think that Batman can run at 60+ mph. Visually, in the cartoon it works just fine. He has enough movement to catch the guys in the car, as long as they don't have a big lead on him. If the bad guys hop in the car and drive away, while Batman is rescuing a civilian or something, then they get away. But if they jump in the car and Bats is in hot pursuit, he's going to be able to land on the roof of the car, or otherwise make it in front of them, before they get too far away. It's the "head them off at the pass" trick from westerns. Such an ability would be clearly superhuman in real life. In comics and animation it happens all the time. I think it's safe to say that "human limits" in superhero fiction are different from "human limits" in our world. Hugh Neilson 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ninja-Bear Posted April 27, 2018 Report Share Posted April 27, 2018 Massey who said the driver was going 60 mph? I assumed that there was enough traffic to keep the car slow enough that running along the roof tops would be quicker. Plus if the car had to turn the block and Batman ran straight forward. Still realistically? Probably not but cinematically? Yeah I can see it. Hugh Neilson 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
massey Posted April 27, 2018 Report Share Posted April 27, 2018 Because there wasn't any traffic in the cartoon. I'm talking about specific scenes, not just something generic. Generally the car would drive off down an empty street, the camera would pan up to rooftop level, and there would be Batman running just as fast as the car. Usually they would travel 5 or 6 blocks and then make a turn, and Batman would jump down on top of the car as it went down the new street, but sometimes he'd just catch up to it. Some people don't want to duplicate those kinds of scenes. That's fine, for their games. But if I want to play a Batman who can do that, it's certainly a valid version of the character. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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