What’s an extra limb good for?

[Soggybag]

Besides holding an extra drink, what can you do with an extra limb. The rules state explicitly that you don’t get an extra attack. So, I suppose you could hold more items, but the rules don’t say that you don’t have to spend actions stowing and reading equipment, so it’s a non issue. 

 

Grond for example has two extra limbs. The only use I can find for them is holding an opponent while pummeling them. I’m guessing that you could maintain a grab while executing a an attack. I’m not convinced this strategy is worth 20 points. You could add 4d6 to an attack with those 20 points. Putting them into Strength would give Grond a Str of 110!

 

The game designers must have seen a reason to justify the cost. 

[assault]

It doesn't seem to have been stated in the 1e text.

 

It's not among the changes described in Different Worlds #23, which is otherwise a good bridge between 1e and 2e. (I personally played "1.5e" for quite a while using these changes, effectively skipping over 2e entirely.)

 

But 2e has a change. It adds the sentence "Each Extra Limb gives the character an additional +1 OCV in hand to hand combat."

 

1e has a bunch of bugs like this. In this case, if I hadn't read the 2e text, I might have allowed characters with Extra Limbs to do occasional surprise maneuvers, do extra non-combat things at the same time and generally wing it.

 

And those last two words are key to the whole game regardless of edition.

[Soggybag]

41 minutes ago, assault said:

It doesn't seem to have been stated in the 1e text.

 

It's not among the changes described in Different Worlds #23, which is otherwise a good bridge between 1e and 2e. (I personally played "1.5e" for quite a while using these changes, effectively skipping over 2e entirely.)

 

But 2e has a change. It adds the sentence "Each Extra Limb gives the character an additional +1 OCV in hand to hand combat."

 

1e has a bunch of bugs like this. In this case, if I hadn't read the 2e text, I might have allowed characters with Extra Limbs to do occasional surprise maneuvers, do extra non-combat things at the same time and generally wing it.

 

And those last two words are key to the whole game regardless of edition.

 

I haven’t read Different Worlds 1.5e stuff. 

 

I dont remember 2e mention of extra limbs providing an OCV bonus. This would definitely give extra limbs mor value. 

[Soggybag]

You’re right extra limb gets +1 OCV hand to hand  in Champions 2. 

 

On a tangential note, I feel like Champions 1, 2, and 3 are really just Champions 1 with revisions provided through supplements: Champions 2 and 3, which aren’t really stand alone versions of the game. Version 4, 5, and 6 are standalone versions of the game. 

[IndianaJoe3]

Things that an Extra Limb is good for:

• Grabbing and Holding multiple opponents
• Using 2-handed weapons and a shield
• Manipulating more than 2 objects at a time
• Surprise HtH combat maneuvers
• Cheating at cards

Also, in 6e (and perhaps as early as 4e), the cost is 5 points. 

[dsatow]

Before 4th ed, it gave the +1 OCV.  4th ed and on, it only cost 5 pts and could be any number of extra limbs, all of which were considered "off hands".

 

I do remember a cheat before they ruled you couldn't do that legally in 4th of using "Usable at Range" with Extra Limb.

[Soggybag]

38 minutes ago, dsatow said:

Before 4th ed, it gave the +1 OCV.  4th ed and on, it only cost 5 pts and could be any number of extra limbs, all of which were considered "off hands".

 

I do remember a cheat before they ruled you couldn't do that legally in 4th of using "Usable at Range" with Extra Limb.

 

Sounds like stretching or tentacles. 

[Duke Bushido]

11 hours ago, Soggybag said:

You’re right extra limb gets +1 OCV hand to hand  in Champions 2. 

 

On a tangential note, I feel like Champions 1, 2, and 3 are really just Champions 1 with revisions provided through supplements: Champions 2 and 3, which aren’t really stand alone versions of the game. Version 4, 5, and 6 are standalone versions of the game. 

 

 

Don't know.  I feel 5e was just revised 4e.

 

 

[Christopher]

14 hours ago, Soggybag said:

Besides holding an extra drink, what can you do with an extra limb. The rules state explicitly that you don’t get an extra attack. So, I suppose you could hold more items, but the rules don’t say that you don’t have to spend actions stowing and reading equipment, so it’s a non issue.  

 

Grond for example has two extra limbs. The only use I can find for them is holding an opponent while pummeling them. I’m guessing that you could maintain a grab while executing a an attack. I’m not convinced this strategy is worth 20 points. You could add 4d6 to an attack with those 20 points. Putting them into Strength would give Grond a Str of 110!

 

The game designers must have seen a reason to justify the cost. 

I can only talk about 6E:

It mostly relates to grabs and limit effect entangles (handcuffs). Mostly via the "Point of Origin" rule (6E1 126)

 

It is relatively easy to pin 1-2 hands with a single grab maneuver. And once you do, all powers with a Origin Point of "hands" is unavalible. Try the same with 4 hands.

On the offense a character can hold on one target with 2 hands (taking them out of the fight until they break out) while still being able to fully attack with the other pair. He still suffers DCV penalties, but he can use range attacks or similar stuff.

6E1 65 mentions the Limitations if you can only use one Limb to grab on. I think one of the APG's expands this to -5/+5 STR per Limb less/more then 2.

Grond can grab and hold 3 enemies with STR 85 (one hand each) and still attack or climb freely. Or grab and hold one target with 100 STR.

 

It also supports "combined attack". (6E2 74; Do not mix it up with Multiple or coordinated [teamwork] attack). If you used Foci and the Focus doubling rule. I actually had a concept like that once: 4-armed alien that could either use 4 handguns or 2 rifles in a combiend attack.

 

Multiple Attack has these notes:

" A character may only Multiple Attack Grab
as many targets as he has hands/limbs to hold
them. (One exception is when the character tries
to Grab more than one of a single target’s limbs,
as detailed above under Grab. In that situation, a
character may attempt to Multiple Attack as many
limbs as he wants; this reflects his ability to tangle
an enemy up so he can’t use his limbs properly.)
Grabbing the heads of two opponents and banging
them together is a Multiple Attack with Grab and
Squeeze, in which the special effect of the Squeeze
damage is smashing the two characters together.
A character can only perform a Multiple Attack
with Choke or Grab Weapon on as many targets as
he has hands/limbs to hold"

 

 

[Christopher]

As for not having any Attack advantages from Multiple hands, Petty Officer Thurl has something to say on the mater:

https://www.schlockmercenary.com/2002-04-12

[Duke Bushido]

8 hours ago, IndianaJoe3 said:

 

• Cheating at cards

 

So is this great minds thinking alike, or soft minds running together, because that's my standard answer.

 

 

8 hours ago, IndianaJoe3 said:

Also, in 6e (and perhaps as early as 4e), the cost is 5 points. 

 

It was 4e, actually, with the removal of the CV bonus and the cost was for "as many as you want." 

 

While in the earlier editions the bulk of the benefits were narrative and common-sense-based, the removal of the CV bonus made them _entirely_ narrative and common sense-based, which left me sort of surprised to see they were still around in 6e.  5 and further seemed to be all about specifying exact mathematical values.  Hard to belive "it might come up" got a pass. 

 

 

[IndianaJoe3]

8 hours ago, IndianaJoe3 said:

• Cheating at cards

 

3 minutes ago, Duke Bushido said:

So is this great minds thinking alike, or soft minds running together, because that's my standard answer.

 

For me it's a B5 reference, but you might have seen it there too. (The clip is unfortunately not on YouTube.)

[Duke Bushido]

Don't remember it on B5, but in all fairness I stopped watching shortly after Scarecrow became captain: the melodrama hit levels that wouldn't be seen again on prime-TV until the DC comics TV shows that are running right now. 

[dsatow]

39 minutes ago, IndianaJoe3 said:

 

 

For me it's a B5 reference, but you might have seen it there too. (The clip is unfortunately not on YouTube.)

 

https://imperiya.by/video/s--3AMKZZgu/Londo-uses-his-tentacles-to-cheat-at-cards.html

[Ninja-Bear]

Well they also define animals such as chimpanzees as having extra limbs such as their feet are useable as hands. 

 

I’ve used extra limbs (extra arms) as a justification for auto fire attacks and AoE-accurate attacks too.

[Hugh Neilson]

21 hours ago, Soggybag said:

On a tangential note, I feel like Champions 1, 2, and 3 are really just Champions 1 with revisions provided through supplements: Champions 2 and 3, which aren’t really stand alone versions of the game. Version 4, 5, and 6 are standalone versions of the game. 

 

Champions 2 and Champions 3 were supplements published during the 2e era.  1st Ed was a 64 page book, and 2e expanded it to 80 pages.  I think 3e was squarebound (not sure I ever played that edition).

[Duke Bushido]

3e came two ways:

 

Originally, in the boxed set, it was staple-bound, came with "the map"  (same one all the way through 4e) and a "Campaign Book," that was essentially a fluffed-up Viper's Nest as packed with 1e and 2e and roster of Villains to get you going, and six under-sized dice, just like the two editions before it.

 

This was about the time RPGs in general were moving away from "the box," and the re-release was a glue-bound book (like all 4e books would be, save the hard backed versions of Champions) and incorporate the Campaign Book as the last section of the book.  No map (because there was no box to keep it in) and even though I own both, I can't for the life of me remember if the Villain Roster is in the glue bound version....:(  I'll have to check (like, tomorrow, maybe) and get back to you.

 

 

[dmjalund]

 

[Christopher]

14 hours ago, IndianaJoe3 said:

 

 

For me it's a B5 reference, but you might have seen it there too. (The clip is unfortunately not on YouTube.) 

 

14 hours ago, dsatow said:

 

https://imperiya.by/video/s--3AMKZZgu/Londo-uses-his-tentacles-to-cheat-at-cards.html

 

5 hours ago, dmjalund said:

 

You know the funny part is: Those are actually his reproductive Organs. IIRC Centauri had 5 or 7 of those.

Also they use a variant of the "3 bases" System. Just it has 5 or 7 bases.

[Christopher]

14 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

It was 4e, actually, with the removal of the CV bonus and the cost was for "as many as you want." 

 

While in the earlier editions the bulk of the benefits were narrative and common-sense-based, the removal of the CV bonus made them _entirely_ narrative and common sense-based, which left me sort of surprised to see they were still around in 6e.  5 and further seemed to be all about specifying exact mathematical values.  Hard to belive "it might come up" got a pass.

As I said earlier, it still has effects on Grabs and use of Multiple Foci in a combined attack.

[Duke Bushido]

Stated out and built effects Concerta le directly to an equal points value, or primarily derived from common sense and the current narrative situation? 

[Hugh Neilson]

21 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

3e came two ways:

 

Originally, in the boxed set, it was staple-bound, came with "the map"  (same one all the way through 4e) and a "Campaign Book," that was essentially a fluffed-up Viper's Nest as packed with 1e and 2e and roster of Villains to get you going, and six under-sized dice, just like the two editions before it.

 

This was about the time RPGs in general were moving away from "the box," and the re-release was a glue-bound book (like all 4e books would be, save the hard backed versions of Champions) and incorporate the Campaign Book as the last section of the book.  No map (because there was no box to keep it in) and even though I own both, I can't for the life of me remember if the Villain Roster is in the glue bound version....:(  I'll have to check (like, tomorrow, maybe) and get back to you.

 

Sounds a lot like the 2e boxed set (and why would they change the format - it was the standard back in the day).  I recall the 2e box had 6d6 (mine were nice, standard size black dice with white pips, and a friend was not happy with the little blue dice in the set he bought), the map, VIPERs nest and the rulebook (80 pages and a monochrome grey version of the 1e cover). 

 

The one thing I do recall was that 3e changed the DCV bonus from Shrinking to a range modifier multiplier (and, I think, did the same with Growth's range modifier penalty).

[Christopher]

13 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

Stated out and built effects Concerta le directly to an equal points value, or primarily derived from common sense and the current narrative situation?  

Please try that again in English. I am not even certain what language "Concerte le" is.

[Duke Bushido]

 

 

36 minutes ago, Hugh Neilson said:

 

Sounds a lot like the 2e boxed set (and why would they change the format - it was the standard back in the day).  I recall the 2e box had 6d6 (mine were nice, standard size black dice with white pips, and a friend was not happy with the little blue dice in the set he bought), the map, VIPERs nest and the rulebook (80 pages and a monochrome grey version of the 1e cover). 

 

The one thing I do recall was that 3e changed the DCV bonus from Shrinking to a range modifier multiplier (and, I think, did the same with Growth's range modifier penalty).

 

Glad you popped in again.  I had forgotten I was going to check to see if the preen villains were included in the glue-bound 3e.  They are.  I remembered the 3 Viper scenarios were there, but I couldn't remember if the Villains had been replaced with agents or not.  Not even sure why I thought that might have been the case.  Other notable difference includes that adds in the glue-bound for the other HERO system games such as JI and FH.  And of course, the rear cover for the staple-bound from the box set was simply a character sheet-- and idea I thought was so great that when I scanned and backed-up my 2e, I did the same thing there.  Twenty-odd years later, looking at the back cover of my 3e staple-bound, it wasn't such a hot idea.

 

However, I'll take that stained and scuffed character sheet any day over the back cover gracing the glue bound book with a large, boringly-laid-out advertisement.

 

 

And while we're discussing changes, let's not forget that 3e (and Champions 3, shortly after) would introduce the new look and layout style of HERO that would follow into all things 3 and 4e.  The look was a bit ....  well, it wasn't me, but I never complained because the new layout was really, really nice.  Steve kept it _similar_ in 5e, but it just didn't work as well there.  I don't know if it was because of the things he didn't keep identical, or because (as I suspect), sectioning off things in that manner doesn't work so well when you have to flip back eighty pages to refresh yourself with the overview.

 

 

3 minutes ago, Christopher said:

Please try that again in English. I am not even certain what language "Concerte le" is.

 

 

Can't help you.  I've made this comment before, but I have a suspicion people think I was kidding:

 

I am not entirely certain that my autocorrect and I speak the same language.  At this point, I couldn't tell you what precise words I was trying to offer up, but suffice it to say that the comment I was making wasn't worth the effort to re-make it, and isn't really interesting enough to discuss.  Just assume it's the name of some anime martial maneuver, and call it good.

 

 

[Hugh Neilson]

I recall playing 2e with Champions 2 and 3 - I think they predated 3rd ed, but were certainly compatible.

 

From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Hero_System_Products both 3rd ed and Champions 3 were released in 1984 - it shows Champions 3 as a 2ed product.