Zero Cost Martial Arts

[Steve]

On 7/8/2019 at 7:17 PM, Hugh Neilson said:

And in 4e, 1 DC with Martial Arts cost 4 points.  Steve has not altered the price of that DC, and he was not the one to initially set it.  Your suggestion we need to know what was in his mind is therefore not relevant.

 

 

To start with, I am saying the pricing of DCs is not consistent. 

 

 

Blasts and KAs have to be purchased, but you don't get to add 0 END DCs to them for 4 points per DC.

 

DC for martial maneuvers adds to all maneuvers, including NNDs (which STR would not enhance normally) and all of the elements that STR would add to normally (like Shoving, Grabbing, Escaping and Disarming).  What limitation would you place on STR that does not enhance anything but direct damage?  I guess that is not limited, because you only get -1/4 for removing everything but direct damage.  But for the same price, a martial artist can enhance all of his DCs, with the added bonus of paying no END.

 

 

This suggests that those 10 points on Martial Arts carry no other benefits.  Each of those maneuvers has enhanced CVs and/or damage classes that the guy with HTH attack did not get.

 

 

You require GM permission for pretty much everything, although it is specified for skills.

 

That -1/2 is a significant undervaluation of the limitation, IMO.  The rest of the skill level - only one third of the cost - is then the logical cost for a skill level that lacks only the ability to add damage.  This is especially so when we consider that the cost of the skill levels was itself based on the cost of a Multipower of OCV, DCV and "some floating damage class" that cannot be otherwise purchased directly.  2 8 point "all HTH" combat skill levels are effectively a 10 point multipower of three variable slots, being +2 OCV, +2 DCV and +1 DC that costs 0 END.

 

Based on Weaponmaster, why should a Martial Arts DC be something other than 2 5 point Skill Levels, only to increase DCs of attacks?  If -1/2 is the appropriate limitation, then martial arts DCs should cost about 7 points (20 points for 3 of them).    Or they should be 8 point levels, only damage, only Martial Arts,  Getting 2 8 point DCs down to 4 points suggests "only for martial arts" is a -2 1/2 limitation.  That seems very high to me.

 

Although the pricing of Deadly Blow indicates "only with weapons", how many of us would deny a race with claws the ability to enhance them with Deadly Blow?

 

One of the things I've been pondering is how the price of extra MA Damage Classes might be adjusted based on the numbers of maneuvers you have that can do damage.

 

If I take a Martial Strike, a Martial Block and a Martial Dodge, I'm paying the same price for extra Damage classes that only applies to a single maneuver as someone who buys Martial Strike, Offensive Strike and Legsweep.which is three maneuvers that can do damage. Using Weaponmaster as an example, why not adjust the price of extra MA Damage Classes depending on the number of damaging maneuvers you can do?

 

Just a thought I've been playing with.

[Ninja-Bear]

16 hours ago, Steve said:

 

One of the things I've been pondering is how the price of extra MA Damage Classes might be adjusted based on the numbers of maneuvers you have that can do damage.

 

If I take a Martial Strike, a Martial Block and a Martial Dodge, I'm paying the same price for extra Damage classes that only applies to a single maneuver as someone who buys Martial Strike, Offensive Strike and Legsweep.which is three maneuvers that can do damage. Using Weaponmaster as an example, why not adjust the price of extra MA Damage Classes depending on the number of damaging maneuvers you can do?

 

Just a thought I've been playing with.

 Not to seem to pick on you but this is the mentality that seems to have gotten us to two thick tomes of rules. Strictly speaking of your example, yes it’s unfair. However to make it fair how

much more rules and complexity is going to be added? And would that add to the game experience or distract from it?

[ScottishFox]

1 hour ago, Ninja-Bear said:

 Not to seem to pick on you but this is the mentality that seems to have gotten us to two thick tomes of rules.

 

The two 6e rule books are intimidating to even seasoned gamers.

 

It's simply too much.

 

You can't cover every edge case that every munchkin is going to try to use to break your mechanics.  Especially in a build-your-own-powers type of system.

[Vanguard]

9 minutes ago, ScottishFox said:

You can't cover every edge case that every munchkin is going to try to use to break your mechanics.  Especially in a build-your-own-powers type of system.

 

Right.

 

That's what the GM is for.  It's his job to go "yeah, that's not going to fly" and either outright nix it or, if he's nice, try and work with you till it's something that's acceptable to both him and the player.

[PhilFleischmann]

18 hours ago, Steve said:

One of the things I like about the idea of starting with stripped-down, lower-priced martial arts maneuvers is that buying them can provide a feeling of learning and improvement, especially in lower-pointed campaigns.

 

Instead of saving up and buying ten points of maneuvers all at once, why not do it slowly, paying in a point or two at a time?

 

Start with Martial Strike, paying a point to get either the first +1d6 in damage or +1 DCV HTH. Then slowly add more points to it and other maneuvers as you gain experience.

This is something I've always thought should be available.  How do you build a martial arts student?  Someone who knows a little about a martial art, but isn't fully trained yet?  The rules say you must buy at least 10 points worth of maneuvers.  But that makes you a full-on martial artist, not an "apprentice-level" martial artist.  You could simply buy fewer maneuvers, but that makes you just as good at whichever maneuvers you do buy as the full martial artist.

 

A low-level wizard can buy a 1d6 RKA fireball, and then buy more DCs has he gets better at his art.  A beginner can by a Familiarity with a Skill, and then buy it up to the full Skill when he learns more.  But there's no way currently for a beginner martial artist to buy weaker versions of the maneuvers.

 

My recommendation would be for an "in-progress" martial artist to pick out hs ten points worth of maneuvers (or more if he likes), and "buy them down" to a cost of 1-2 points instead of 3-5.  Obviously, you do this by reducing the OCV/DCV/DC bonuses.  You probably shouldn't increase an OCV/DCV penalty when doing this.  For example, a Defensive Strike is +1 OCV and +3 DCV, and costs 5 points.  If you reduce the OCV bonus to 0, and the DCV bonus to +2, it becomes a 2-point "Beginner's Defensive Strike".  To reduce the price of full maneuvers to make beginner maneuvers, you shouldn't eliminate any other types of bonuses that are essential to the maneuver.  For example, you can't remove the "Target Falls" element from a Martial Throw, because then it's not a throw anymore.

 

Then presumably, the character will eventually add the points to the beginner maneuvers to make them into the full maneuvers.

[PhilFleischmann]

18 hours ago, Steve said:

 

One of the things I've been pondering is how the price of extra MA Damage Classes might be adjusted based on the numbers of maneuvers you have that can do damage.

 

If I take a Martial Strike, a Martial Block and a Martial Dodge, I'm paying the same price for extra Damage classes that only applies to a single maneuver as someone who buys Martial Strike, Offensive Strike and Legsweep.which is three maneuvers that can do damage. Using Weaponmaster as an example, why not adjust the price of extra MA Damage Classes depending on the number of damaging maneuvers you can do?

 

Just a thought I've been playing with.

I don't think this is a problem, since you can only use them one at a time anyway.  Extra DCs for a maneuver you aren't using don't do anything.  If you only have one maneuver that DCs can be added to, then it's probably more efficient to buy HA or limited STR instead of DCs.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

One of the things I like about the idea of starting with stripped-down, lower-priced martial arts maneuvers is that buying them can provide a feeling of learning and improvement, especially in lower-pointed campaigns.

 

It would be pretty easy to build 1 point maneuvers, 2 point maneuvers, etc up to 5 points in each.  I like this idea quite a bit, really.  Its like the concept that the Might & Magic games had where you started out with weak fire blast, then a more powerful ranged one, then a fireball, etc.

[Ninja-Bear]

I wonder if you could use the custom build system to create a 10 point martial art where it doesn’t matter what each individual maneuver costs (so some could be 1 or 2 points) but the whole set equaled 10. And you bought it as 10 pts.

[Gnome BODY (important!)]

2 hours ago, Steve said:

One of the things I like about the idea of starting with stripped-down, lower-priced martial arts maneuvers is that buying them can provide a feeling of learning and improvement, especially in lower-pointed campaigns.

 

Instead of saving up and buying ten points of maneuvers all at once, why not do it slowly, paying in a point or two at a time?

 

Start with Martial Strike, paying a point to get either the first +1d6 in damage or +1 DCV HTH. Then slowly add more points to it and other maneuvers as you gain experience.

I don't really like that idea, MA is already too good at the current minimum investment level and you'd be opening the door to even lower investments. 

If you don't force PCs to keep improving their MA once they start the buy-in then you've told the munchkin that he can get +2 OCV with Strike for 2 points. 

But if you do force PCs to keep improving their MA you can get people who are in "XP debt" and thus can't take entirely sensible in-character actions like learning German before the trip to Germany because they're too busy learning Kung Fu. 

 

I'd suggest instead having PCs buy the first half-dozen points as 2 or 3 point CSLs, then once they dunk the 10th XP into it let them swap the whole kit for MA. 

 

2 hours ago, Steve said:

 

One of the things I've been pondering is how the price of extra MA Damage Classes might be adjusted based on the numbers of maneuvers you have that can do damage.

 

If I take a Martial Strike, a Martial Block and a Martial Dodge, I'm paying the same price for extra Damage classes that only applies to a single maneuver as someone who buys Martial Strike, Offensive Strike and Legsweep.which is three maneuvers that can do damage. Using Weaponmaster as an example, why not adjust the price of extra MA Damage Classes depending on the number of damaging maneuvers you can do?

 

Just a thought I've been playing with.

Right now a MADC is something like 5 STR, 0 END (+1/2), Only for Martial Maneuvers (-1).  That's significantly more flexible than a HTHA DC which only gets -1/2 and can't be applied to STR things. 

I'd be very cautious lowering the price of a MADC because it's already a stupidly good deal, and I'd be equally cautious about adding complexity bloat. 

[Steve]

2 hours ago, Gnome BODY (important!) said:

Right now a MADC is something like 5 STR, 0 END (+1/2), Only for Martial Maneuvers (-1).  That's significantly more flexible than a HTHA DC which only gets -1/2 and can't be applied to STR things. 

I'd be very cautious lowering the price of a MADC because it's already a stupidly good deal, and I'd be equally cautious about adding complexity bloat.

 

Well, my thinking was that two 3-point levels with a limitation "Only To Increase Damage" (-1/2) costing 4 real points would work roughly like how a MA Damage Class currently does now, but it could only be applied to two or three maneuvers and would be the cheapest you could buy. So if you only had a single style with a couple of damaging maneuvers, that would be what you bought. If you picked up more maneuvers than that, then they'd only work on a few maneuvers or you'd need to invest more points in damage-increasing levels to cover the additional maneuvers, going up to 5-point maneuvers with the same limitation, increasing the cost to 7 real points or 8-point levels for 11 real points if you had a lot of maneuvers.

 

Since there are people in the thread complaining about the cheapness of martial arts, increasing the cost of extra Damage Classes that can affect a broader range of maneuvers could be a way to adjust the amount needed to invest in martial arts and offset some of the cheapness of maneuvers.

[Gnome BODY (important!)]

4 hours ago, Steve said:

 

Well, my thinking was that two 3-point levels with a limitation "Only To Increase Damage" (-1/2) costing 4 real points would work roughly like how a MA Damage Class currently does now, but it could only be applied to two or three maneuvers and would be the cheapest you could buy. So if you only had a single style with a couple of damaging maneuvers, that would be what you bought. If you picked up more maneuvers than that, then they'd only work on a few maneuvers or you'd need to invest more points in damage-increasing levels to cover the additional maneuvers, going up to 5-point maneuvers with the same limitation, increasing the cost to 7 real points or 8-point levels for 11 real points if you had a lot of maneuvers.

 

Since there are people in the thread complaining about the cheapness of martial arts, increasing the cost of extra Damage Classes that can affect a broader range of maneuvers could be a way to adjust the amount needed to invest in martial arts and offset some of the cheapness of maneuvers.

 

I feel the only adjustment needed for MADCs is to make them cost END.  That'd bring them into line with what I'd expect for 4 real. 

Setting up a variable cost structure would introduce breakpoints that would further worsen the "too cheap with a little, too expensive with a lot" issue.  And add complexity. 

[Lucius]

On 7/10/2019 at 7:37 PM, Steve said:

 

One of the things I've been pondering is how the price of extra MA Damage Classes might be adjusted based on the numbers of maneuvers you have that can do damage.

 

If I take a Martial Strike, a Martial Block and a Martial Dodge, I'm paying the same price for extra Damage classes that only applies to a single maneuver as someone who buys Martial Strike, Offensive Strike and Legsweep.which is three maneuvers that can do damage. Using Weaponmaster as an example, why not adjust the price of extra MA Damage Classes depending on the number of damaging maneuvers you can do?

 

Just a thought I've been playing with.

 

If you're going to do that, drop the concept of buying "Martial Arts Damage Classes" entirely and just allow people to buy more damage for specific individual maneuvers.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Skill Level with All Palindromedaries

 

 

[Hugh Neilson]

12 hours ago, Steve said:

 

Well, my thinking was that two 3-point levels with a limitation "Only To Increase Damage" (-1/2) costing 4 real points would work roughly like how a MA Damage Class currently does now, but it could only be applied to two or three maneuvers and would be the cheapest you could buy. So if you only had a single style with a couple of damaging maneuvers, that would be what you bought. If you picked up more maneuvers than that, then they'd only work on a few maneuvers or you'd need to invest more points in damage-increasing levels to cover the additional maneuvers, going up to 5-point maneuvers with the same limitation, increasing the cost to 7 real points or 8-point levels for 11 real points if you had a lot of maneuvers.

 

Since there are people in the thread complaining about the cheapness of martial arts, increasing the cost of extra Damage Classes that can affect a broader range of maneuvers could be a way to adjust the amount needed to invest in martial arts and offset some of the cheapness of maneuvers.

 

Step 1:  I disagree with the Talent Build suggestion that "only for damage" is properly a -1/2 limitation.  Would you let me buy "+2 OCV or +2 DCV or +1 OCV and DCV when using one of three martial maneuvers" for 2 points?  That is the price if 1 DC is 4 points - I can spend 2 more points to get access to the extra CVs, and still have the option of an extra DC instead.

 

I find most GMs will allow 5 point levels with Martial Arts.  2 5 point levels, only for damage (-1 1/2) = 4 points, which seems a much more reasonable limitation value.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Of all of the martial arts structures the increased damage class element is my least favorite.

[Steve]

4 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

 

Step 1:  I disagree with the Talent Build suggestion that "only for damage" is properly a -1/2 limitation.  Would you let me buy "+2 OCV or +2 DCV or +1 OCV and DCV when using one of three martial maneuvers" for 2 points?  That is the price if 1 DC is 4 points - I can spend 2 more points to get access to the extra CVs, and still have the option of an extra DC instead.

 

I find most GMs will allow 5 point levels with Martial Arts.  2 5 point levels, only for damage (-1 1/2) = 4 points, which seems a much more reasonable limitation value.

 

No, I would not let you buy OCV or DCV the way you specify, although +1 OCV or +1 DCV can be bought with a -1 Limitation "HTH Attacks Only" for 2 points per Mr. Long: https://www.herogames.com/forums/topic/97808-limited-ocvdcv/  

 

Sorry, I should have written it as "Only To Increase Damage" with a -1/2 Limitation, which is how the Weaponmaster Talent is constructed per 6E1 pg 447. I was using that as my model in my suggestion, since it is RAW.

 

That limitation value could then be applied to 3-, 5-, or 8-point levels, depending on broadness, but I am inclined to think that using only either 3- or 5-point levels for this would probably be all that was need when it came to martial arts though. This would bring the increased damage in line with RAW using skill levels.

 

[Hugh Neilson]

3 hours ago, Steve said:

 

No, I would not let you buy OCV or DCV the way you specify, although +1 OCV or +1 DCV can be bought with a -1 Limitation "HTH Attacks Only" for 2 points per Mr. Long: https://www.herogames.com/forums/topic/97808-limited-ocvdcv/  

 

Sorry, I should have written it as "Only To Increase Damage" with a -1/2 Limitation, which is how the Weaponmaster Talent is constructed per 6E1 pg 447. I was using that as my model in my suggestion, since it is RAW.

 

That limitation value could then be applied to 3-, 5-, or 8-point levels, depending on broadness, but I am inclined to think that using only either 3- or 5-point levels for this would probably be all that was need when it came to martial arts though. This would bring the increased damage in line with RAW using skill levels.

 

 

Reading the FAQ, you asked whether it could be done "similar to", not "with the same limitation as".  I would not allow "+1 OCV with all HTH" for 2 points unless we are changing the 2 point "+1 OCV with a single attack" skill level.  At the same time, 2.5 points for +1 OCV with all HTH does not seem overpriced compared to the cost, and greater versatility, of a 5 point skill level with All Martial Arts.

 

I recognized the weaponmaster and similar limitations.  There are a lot of RAW limitations that are priced far too low for what they remove.  In my view, that should be fixed.

 

The other way to bring increased MA in line is to reprice (more reasonably) "only to add to damage" as a -1 1/2 limitation, not -1/2.  2 5 point levels then cost exactly 4 points.

 

Makes it pretty clear that Hand Attack is way overpriced at the same 4 points for +1 DCV, though.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Martial Arts damage also adds to strength in maneuvers too, I believe.  Plus NND damage.

[Duke Bushido]

15 hours ago, Lucius said:

 

If you're going to do that, drop the concept of buying "Martial Arts Damage Classes" entirely and just allow people to buy more damage for specific individual maneuvers.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Skill Level with All Palindromedaries

 

 

 

Or more damage for "Martial Arts" as a group.

 

Or more damage.  +2d6 HTH attack, for example.  Or just Skill Levels that can be used as extra damage.

[Hugh Neilson]

1 hour ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

Martial Arts damage also adds to strength in maneuvers too, I believe.  Plus NND damage.

Skill levels add to DCs, which would be the equivalent of STR for a grab and include NND damage.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Skill levels add damage, but not strength, so they can't work for adding strength to a grab. Unless you handwave that, but its not in the rules that way. Just a point about how using levels to simulate martial arts is incomplete is all.

[Hugh Neilson]

You would think a skilled grappler could use skill levels to enhance his Escape or Hold STR, not just squeeze damage.  It's not actually stated (yea or nay) anywhere that I can see, however, with the possible exception of P 61, which discusses Ranged Disarms.  Those rules do convert DCs to STR, so levels that enhance a ranged attack's DC would also enhance its STR for Disarming purposes.