Zero Cost Martial Arts

[Christopher R Taylor]

That was why I wanted to create a framework that let you build martial arts ... and other power structures like it (say, magic, or psionics, etc).  With an actual rules structure on how and why the maneuvers cost what they do, it would be possible to balance them within the existing game structure and further to build other similar types of structured abilities, even talents.  All using the same power framework instead of handwaving the cost.

[Duke Bushido]

Honestly, two skill levels, two PSLs, 4 dice of damage-- maybe even a naked advantage or two--

 

boom.  I have a hundred and fifty maneuvers, because I'm an amazing guy who can run with his arms flapping behind him.  "Martial Arts" and special martial maneuvers are SFX, period, and this is the one place where it's perfectly acceptable to pay points for SFX while being able to apply your normal skill levels to _only the one thing_ that you ponied up for the special effect.

 

Sure: it's a fun exercise.  The more I think about it, the more I understand _why_ it has always been so popular with the majority of the fandom: It's something else to tinker with-- let's face it, we _all_ like to tinker and cobble and build.  If we didn't, we'd have abandoned HERO _decades_ ago.  While we can make grand and lofty speeches about the appeal of the open-ended design and the specificity of build control and the fact that you're not locked in to something---

 

at the end of the day, there are a _lot_ of open-ended universal system out there, and most of them are less work.  We stick with HERO because it requires the most tinkering, and we love it.  So yes; I understand why the Martial Arts rules caught on.  Unfortunately, being attractive doesn't mean that have any place in a system that flat-out doesn't need them.

 

 

[PhilFleischmann]

Let's see your numbers.

 

For a few HtH skill levels and some extra dice of HtH damage, you can indeed have a lot of martial maneuvers.  But you don't get:

 

NND (Nerve Strike)

HKA

Escape

Reversal

Takedown/Trip/Throw (Target falls)

Probably some others I've forgotten

 

And BTW, nobody buys ten MA maneuvers.  They buy four or five, maybe six or seven at the most.  Beyond that you definitely get diminishing returns.  Then they might buy levels with them, and extra DCs - for some very good returns.  

[Duke Bushido]

1 hour ago, PhilFleischmann said:

Let's see your numbers.

 

NND (Nerve Strike)

 

1 hour ago, PhilFleischmann said:

 

 

On July 3, 2019 at 8:03 PM, Duke Bushido said:

 naked advantages, extra damage with links and triggers and yadda-yadda-  

 

 

 

You get NND with _everything_ if you buy the naked advantage.

 

As for the rest of the list, the regular combat maneuvers provide you with these things.  You add your extra seasonings to make them  "martial."  Or, they are martial because you say they are martial.  Martial arts is a selected SFX _that you have to pay for_ under the rules for abilities that anyone can buy so long as they don't call them "martial."

 

 

[PhilFleischmann]

Let's see your numbers.

 

Naked NND advantage applied to everything is a construct only used by Cheaty McCheaterson.

[Duke Bushido]

Considering that you have to buy it for x amount of active points, and that I am talking about the redundant and out of place nature of martial arts as a special case in an otherwise-universal system, I felt it was understood that the amount of naked advantage purchased and any appropriate modifiers would be model a usage restrained to various permutations of fisticuffs and the occasional "Hi-yah!" 

 

Forgive the mistake of the assumption, please. And as I mentioned earlier, I learned decades ago not to tilt too long or too hard at this most sacred of windmills.  In spite of an over-arcing desire to see all things unified and equal and reduced to their bare and equal minimums, there has always been a silent "except the really Batman stuff" affixed to the end of that particular desire, and I know better than to point it out too terribly often. 

 

(it is good to see you back, Sir.  I see you brought Manic Typist with you.  :)  ) 

[Vanguard]

9 hours ago, PhilFleischmann said:

And BTW, nobody buys ten MA maneuvers.  They buy four or five, maybe six or seven at the most.  Beyond that you definitely get diminishing returns.  Then they might buy levels with them, and extra DCs - for some very good returns.  

 

Um, on of my characters has 10 MA maneuvers.  And I don't feel like I'm getting diminishing returns from them . . . . 

 

I've also bought levels with them and, I think, I even started buying some DCs to go with . . . 

 

'Course I'm now probably going to be told I'm doing it wrong and wasting points but . . ::shrugs:: it works for me and while I've found you can do it the way DB pointed out.  it just doesn't feel right.  To me it feels to  . . . efficient, if that can be a thing.

[Ninja-Bear]

Ten maneuvers? I don’t think I have but I’ve bought more than the efficient ceiling though.

[PhilFleischmann]

1 hour ago, Vanguard said:

 

Um, on of my characters has 10 MA maneuvers.  And I don't feel like I'm getting diminishing returns from them . . . . 

 

I've also bought levels with them and, I think, I even started buying some DCs to go with . . . 

 

'Course I'm now probably going to be told I'm doing it wrong and wasting points but . . ::shrugs:: it works for me and while I've found you can do it the way DB pointed out.  it just doesn't feel right.  To me it feels to  . . . efficient, if that can be a thing.

No, I'm certainly not going to tell you you're doing it wrong.  If that works for you and your character concept, got for it!  If the maneuvers are sufficiently different from each other, it might even still be reasonably efficient.  Perhaps especially if you've built some of them with the custom maneuver-building rules.

 

I just mean that many of the maneuvers given are minor variants of each other, and it's probably not so efficient to buy two or more that are very similar.  Like for example, you probably don't need to buy both the Martial Block, and the Defensive Block.  But who knows?  In this game, there can always be edge cases where such a thing might still be useful and maybe even efficient.

 

-----

 

So here are some numbers:

 

Say, 5 Martial Maneuvers at 3-5 points each.  Call it 20 points.

 

vs.

 

2 HtH Combat levels = 10 points,

NND as a naked advantage on 10 STR = 10 points,

+2d6 HtH damage = What's that going for these days?  Another 10 points?  More if you can also use it for Grab, Escape, Disarm, etc.?

More if you want a Killing attack, or a Moving attack where you don't risk taking any damage.

 

Martial Arts looks pretty efficient to me.

[Vanguard]

@PhilFleischmann

 

I'd have to pull up the character but, yeah, I do believe they're different from each other. One or two might overlap a tiny bit but that's about it.

 

I do see what your talking about with the minor variation thing.  And we've run into that during thought experiments based on having multiple style which would require you to purchase the same maneuver, just named something different.  We decided you didn't need to do that.  If you purchased all the non-combat related stuff (IE: KSes, etc) then you just needed to buy the maneuver once and call it good.

 

I will say that, at first blush, buying martial arts as just a collection of Skill levels, str and damage could work and might, in the long run, even be cheaper.  But I look at it like I look at the rule talking about not building a power to take the place of an already existing power. (I know I'm messing that up but it's what I can recall at the moment).  To me, that's what's being done.  

 

Anyway, sorry to derail the thread . . .

[dialNforNinja]

While it is on my list of things to get I don't yet have the Martial Arts book, and as a big Abe Lincoln fan the lack of Chokeslam in my options is annoying the heck out of me. If someone has a free minute or five to look at the custom martial maneuvers system, could you? No "grab" like the Choke Hold because you're not holding them at the end of the attack, just a bit of NND damage for when you pick 'em up and shake 'em, then Opponent Falls for when you toss them on the ground like a litterbug with a used kleenex. Remember kids, always make sure your villains are placed in the proper receptacles! Maybe a DCV or OCV penalty if needed to make the points work, due to compromising your balance until you readjust.

 

Because piracy is bad and the only Hero System book in my FLGS is the 5e Vehicle Sourcebook so I can't just flip to that page for five minutes "while browsing" myself, yanno? Really, it's such a classic bit for Bricks and physical archvillains, I'd have thought it would be in the main books long since.

[Hugh Neilson]

10 hours ago, PhilFleischmann said:

No, I'm certainly not going to tell you you're doing it wrong.  If that works for you and your character concept, got for it!  If the maneuvers are sufficiently different from each other, it might even still be reasonably efficient.  Perhaps especially if you've built some of them with the custom maneuver-building rules.

 

I just mean that many of the maneuvers given are minor variants of each other, and it's probably not so efficient to buy two or more that are very similar.  Like for example, you probably don't need to buy both the Martial Block, and the Defensive Block.  But who knows?  In this game, there can always be edge cases where such a thing might still be useful and maybe even efficient.

 

Say, 5 Martial Maneuvers at 3-5 points each.  Call it 20 points.

 

vs.

 

2 HtH Combat levels = 10 points,

NND as a naked advantage on 10 STR = 10 points,

+2d6 HtH damage = What's that going for these days?  Another 10 points?  More if you can also use it for Grab, Escape, Disarm, etc.?

More if you want a Killing attack, or a Moving attack where you don't risk taking any damage.

 

Martial Arts looks pretty efficient to me.

 

A lot depends on what you want to achieve. For 20 points, you could buy a Multipower with a 10 point pool, and five variable slots.  Let's make those:

 

(a)  +2 OCV

(b)  +2 DCV

(c)  +10 STR

(d)  1/2d6 HKA

(e)  1d6 HTH Attack, NND

 

I can now match or beat each of the following MA maneuvers (core rules only):

 

 - Killing Strike (cost 4 points, and mine has no OCV penalty)

 - Martial Dodge (cost 4 points)

 

and I am pretty close to

 

 - Martial Disarm (no +1 DCV, but no -1 OCV either; 4 points)

 - Nerve Strike (no +1 DCV but no -1 OCV; 4 points)

 

That matches 16 of my 20 points spent.

 

And I have a lot of other options Martial Arts would not have given me, as well as (I suspect) being able to beat, match or come close to other Martial maneuvers in HSMA.

 

I don't get 0 END on my extra DCs, and I should limit the first three slots to only be for HTH combat effects, of course.

 

What if we spend 40 points (20 point pool and 4 point slots)?

 

(a)  +4 OCV

(b)  +4 DCV

(c)  +20 STR

(d)  1d6+1 HKA

(e)  2d6 HTH Attack, NND

 

I can duplicate a Defensive Strike (5 points), Martial Block (4 points), Martial Escape (with +20 STR, or +1 OCV or DCV; 4 points), Martial Grab (with an extra OCV, DCV or +5 STR, plus my STR also adds to Squeezing or Throwing; 3 points), Martial Strike (4 points) and I can almost match an Offensive Strike (+4d6 means no +4 DCV, but no -2 OCV penalty either; 5 points).  My Martial Disarm and Nerve Strike are now better than the originals, as are the Killing Strike and Martial Dodge. 

 

That's another 25 points of maneuvers, plus 16 earlier = 41 points.  I get more versatility (and likely a lot of those minor variations in HSMA; as I recall, many swap the OCV and DCV modifiers, which this construct does with no issues), more power to some maneuvers (my Dodge is +7 DCV, for example).

 

I do spend more END, though. 

 

I don't think this is vastly more efficient, but it is certainly not less efficient.  A lot depends on what you want to do.  I can't chose to fall prone in order to Trip a target, nor do I get that Velocity adder for a Throw, for example.  But my Trip can be better than a Sacrifice Throw by 1 CV or 5 STR, and I do not fall.  I can get +15 STR and the same +1 DCV for a Throw, or I can have a +2 OCV, +1 DC Throw, which is a Legsweep with no DCV penalty and an extra to add in (missed that 3 point maneuver above).

 

From this analysis, I would say that MA is not more efficient, but it also doesn't feel less efficient.   That suggests reasonable balance to me.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

While it is on my list of things to get I don't yet have the Martial Arts book, and as a big Abe Lincoln fan the lack of Chokeslam in my options is annoying the heck out of me.

 

Well your Chokeslam sounds like it has three basic elements:

• Follows Grab (-2 points)
• Target Falls (+1 point)
• NND damage (+1 point per +½d6 NND up to +1d6, +2 points per additional +½d6 NND)

 

So instead of buying normal strength damage with a throw, you use NND.  2d6 NND would cost you a total of 5 points (6 for the NND, 1 for the fall, and -2 for follows grab).  You can't combine both normal damage and the NND, and NND caps at 2d6, but you could add a modifier to OCV or DCV to it as well (each is +1 point per +1 CV up to +2, +2 points for additional +1 CV up to +3 max and -1 point per -1 CV up to -2 CV).

[PhilFleischmann]

1 hour ago, Hugh Neilson said:

 

A lot depends on what you want to achieve. For 20 points, you could buy a Multipower with a 10 point pool, and five variable slots.  Let's make those:

 

(a)  +2 OCV

(b)  +2 DCV

(c)  +10 STR

(d)  1/2d6 HKA

(e)  1d6 HTH Attack, NND

It was generally not allowed to put Skills (including Skill Levels) in a Multipower.  Is this something that changed in 6e?

 

Skill Levels - especially those above 2 points, are their own sort of "multipower".  They already have their flexibility built in.

 

That's a way to think about it - Martial Arts are sort of like a power framework unto themselves.

[Duke Bushido]

13 hours ago, PhilFleischmann said:

No, I'm certainly not going to tell you you're doing it wrong.  If that works for you and your character concept, got for it!  

 

 

Ditto on both counts. 

 

I mean, you've hit the whole point of gaming anyway: you have found something that gives you the right "feel."  I totally support that.  It's the reason I still use 2e, and though I dabble now and again in 4e, I never go further.  It's the reason I don't use the Dark Champions stuff even when I'm doing 4e:  nothing else has the "feel" I get from 2e.

 

Above all else, you and your players have to be having a good time, or it's all moot. 

[Ninja-Bear]

5 hours ago, PhilFleischmann said:

It was generally not allowed to put Skills (including Skill Levels) in a Multipower.  Is this something that changed in 6e?

 

Skill Levels - especially those above 2 points, are their own sort of "multipower".  They already have their flexibility built in.

 

That's a way to think about it - Martial Arts are sort of like a power framework unto themselves.

Well OCV & DCV are characteristics in 6th so acceptable.

[Hugh Neilson]

6 hours ago, PhilFleischmann said:

It was generally not allowed to put Skills (including Skill Levels) in a Multipower.  Is this something that changed in 6e?

 

Skill Levels - especially those above 2 points, are their own sort of "multipower".  They already have their flexibility built in.

 

That's a way to think about it - Martial Arts are sort of like a power framework unto themselves.

 

Pre-6e, there were no "OCV" and "DCV" characteristics.  My MP includes no skills, only characteristics and powers.

 

As you point out, a skill level is a multtipower of OCV, DCV and damage.  That is how 6e priced them.  Pre-6e, there was no way to reverse engineer them as CV was not costed.

[eepjr24]

7 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

 

A lot depends on what you want to achieve. For 20 points, you could buy a Multipower with a 10 point pool, and five variable slots.  Let's make those:

 

(a)  +2 OCV

(b)  +2 DCV

(c)  +10 STR

(d)  1/2d6 HKA

(e)  1d6 HTH Attack, NND

 

Just a couple notes, for a more clear comparison. Others probably apply to the 40 point MP, but I figure this is enough to show the nuance.

 

6e1, 398.

A character cannot use STR bought as a slot in one Power Framework (or the STR obtained from Density Increase or Growth bought as a slot) to add damage to an HA or HKA bought as a slot in the same or another Power Framework.

 

You have to define the NND type at power creation, so you could have a Nerve Strike.  Or you could define it as a "Choke Hold" and multiple attack with a grab for it, but you would be at -1 OCV, -2 DCV plus the multiple attack penalties. 

 

Whichever NND you choose would do 1d6 plus STR. The martial one does 2d6 plus STR.

 

Disarm has a -2 OCV as a base maneuver, so you would be +10 STR for disarm, but -2 OCV.

 

Honestly, even with all that I think you come out close to even. The martial artist is more combat effective for a given set of maneuvers especially if you take into account the ability to buy DC's at 4 points each which apply to either STR or damage. The multipower can add other elements at reduced cost and is more versatile in a variety of situations.

 

- E

[Hugh Neilson]

14 hours ago, eepjr24 said:

 

Just a couple notes, for a more clear comparison. Others probably apply to the 40 point MP, but I figure this is enough to show the nuance.

 

6e1, 398.

A character cannot use STR bought as a slot in one Power Framework (or the STR obtained from Density Increase or Growth bought as a slot) to add damage to an HA or HKA bought as a slot in the same or another Power Framework.

 

Why would I want the extra STR to enhance the KA when I can just dedicate more pool points to the HKA itself?  A 40 point investment would be a Multipower with a 20 point pool, and five variable slots, being:

 

(a)  +4 OCV

(b)  +4 DCV

(c)  +20 STR

(d)  1d6+1 HKA

(e)  2d6 HTH Attack, NND

 

Although I find that an inappropriate restriction anyway.  If your MP allows you to have +30 STR or a 2d6 HKA, what is the balance issue with using a 1d6 HKA with +15 STR?  Dr. Destroyer shows us we can Combined Attack with two frameworks, and two powers in the same framework are also legal combined attacks.  It's not needed here, though.

 

14 hours ago, eepjr24 said:

You have to define the NND type at power creation, so you could have a Nerve Strike.  Or you could define it as a "Choke Hold" and multiple attack with a grab for it, but you would be at -1 OCV, -2 DCV plus the multiple attack penalties. 

 

Whichever NND you choose would do 1d6 plus STR. The martial one does 2d6 plus STR.

 

I was assuming Nerve Strike, though I did not indicate that (note that I never refer to duplicating Choke Hold, only Nerve Strike).  You would need another slot for Choke Hold, and the limitation for needing to Grab would not be much use.

 

As a Hand Attack, the NND is enhanced by the character's natural STR.  See 6e1 102.  A 10 STR + a 1d6 NND HA = 4 DCs = 2d6 NND.  More STR means higher Nerve Strike damage.

 

The Martial Nerve Strike does 2d6 NND, period.  It does not add STR - the maneuvers that do "STR +" are indicated as such.  Neither martial NND adds STR.

 

14 hours ago, eepjr24 said:

Disarm has a -2 OCV as a base maneuver, so you would be +10 STR for disarm, but -2 OCV.

 

That's true - the 20 point version can't match Martial Disarm.

 

With the 40 point investment, you can add +1 OCV, +1 DCV and +10 STR to a standard Disarm, matching Martial Disarm exactly at -1 OCV, +1 DCV, +10 STR.

 

14 hours ago, eepjr24 said:

Honestly, even with all that I think you come out close to even. The martial artist is more combat effective for a given set of maneuvers especially if you take into account the ability to buy DC's at 4 points each which apply to either STR or damage. The multipower can add other elements at reduced cost and is more versatile in a variety of situations.

 

I think the two are roughly equal, which suggests the two are balanced.  It depends on what you wanted to achieve.  Flip through HSMA and we have Strikes that reverse the OCV and DCV modifiers.  The martial artist needs to buy extra maneuvers, but the Multipower gets them automatically.

 

The MA damage class is beneficial more because it costs no END than for its 4 points per DC cost - surely STR, only with martial maneuvers, is at least a -1/4 limitation.  This highlights a problem with Damage Classes in general, though.  HTH Attack is essentially a limited form of STR.  A Martial DC is similar, but a 0 END HA costs more, and delivers less, than a Martial DC.  A -1/4 limitation on HA is pretty light.

 

The Multipower model is most efficient when all elements (STR, OCV, DCV, NND, KA) scale up together.  Raising just one element (or only three for damage classes) when OCV and DCV options could also be enhanced is less efficient.  But the only elements I see missing from the MP are "you fall" (which is not advantageous), adding velocity damage for a Martial Throw and the second NND for a Choke Hold.  You can simulate the choke hold  by either adding a sixth slot (hmmm...I can karate chop him in the neck for the same NND with a Multipower approach - remember that you still have to hit each phase to inflict damage, including Choke damage, on a Grabbed target), or by using the non-martial Choke maneuver (which means 1d6 NND only, but you can get better STR to maintain the grab).

 

[Christopher R Taylor]

But as others have noted, there are abilities in martial arts (disable, flash, etc) that a super stripped down version like that does not cover.  So you could simulate being good at melee with a multipower like that, but not all the really interesting moves in martial arts.

[eepjr24]

33 minutes ago, Hugh Neilson said:

The Martial Nerve Strike does 2d6 NND, period.  It does not add STR - the maneuvers that do "STR +" are indicated as such.  Neither martial NND adds STR.

Yep, sorry, I was thinking of Martial DC's, which do add to the NND's.

 

The MA damage class is beneficial more because it costs no END than for its 4 points per DC cost - surely STR, only with martial maneuvers, is at least a -1/4 limitation.  This highlights a problem with Damage Classes in general, though.  HTH Attack is essentially a limited form of STR.  A Martial DC is similar, but a 0 END HA costs more, and delivers less, than a Martial DC.  A -1/4 limitation on HA is pretty light.

I always thought of HA being -1/4 because it is "STR only to add damage to other attacks". I am not saying the math works out perfectly, but I think of DC's as STR, 0END (+1/2), Only for use with Martial Maneuvers (-1/2) and some other limitation for -1/4 representing the other restrictions like being unable to place other limitations on it, not being able to place in frameworks, style recognition, etc. Just my .02, I don't have any special insight into Steve's brain.

 

The Multipower model is most efficient when all elements (STR, OCV, DCV, NND, KA) scale up together.  Raising just one element (or only three for damage classes) when OCV and DCV options could also be enhanced is less efficient.  But the only elements I see missing from the MP are "you fall" (which is not advantageous), adding velocity damage for a Martial Throw and the second NND for a Choke Hold.  You can simulate the choke hold  by either adding a sixth slot (hmmm...I can karate chop him in the neck for the same NND with a Multipower approach - remember that you still have to hit each phase to inflict damage, including Choke damage, on a Grabbed target), or by using the non-martial Choke maneuver (which means 1d6 NND only, but you can get better STR to maintain the grab).

The NND's and other elements scale easily with +DC or with CSL's for the martial art, which cannot be placed in frameworks.

 

 

[Hugh Neilson]

Quote

The MA damage class is beneficial more because it costs no END than for its 4 points per DC cost - surely STR, only with martial maneuvers, is at least a -1/4 limitation.  This highlights a problem with Damage Classes in general, though.  HTH Attack is essentially a limited form of STR.  A Martial DC is similar, but a 0 END HA costs more, and delivers less, than a Martial DC.  A -1/4 limitation on HA is pretty light.

 

I always thought of HA being -1/4 because it is "STR only to add damage to other attacks". I am not saying the math works out perfectly, but I think of DC's as STR, 0END (+1/2), Only for use with Martial Maneuvers (-1/2) and some other limitation for -1/4 representing the other restrictions like being unable to place other limitations on it, not being able to place in frameworks, style recognition, etc. Just my .02, I don't have any special insight into Steve's brain.

 

 

Steve has not changed these prices - they predate 5e.  To me, a martial DC is way better than HTH attack.  How much should it cost to buy STR that only enhances combat maneuver effects?  No lifting, including no increase to items that can be picked up and thrown.  I think that might reasonably be a -1/4 limitation, but that would be better than HA, and it would still cost END.  2 Skill Levels with Martial Arts would be 10 points - "only to increase damage classes" at -1 1/2 would give us a 4 point cost.  But then we should be able to make a similar purchase for non-martial HTH maneuvers, shouldn't we?

Quote

The Multipower model is most efficient when all elements (STR, OCV, DCV, NND, KA) scale up together.  Raising just one element (or only three for damage classes) when OCV and DCV options could also be enhanced is less efficient.  But the only elements I see missing from the MP are "you fall" (which is not advantageous), adding velocity damage for a Martial Throw and the second NND for a Choke Hold.  You can simulate the choke hold  by either adding a sixth slot (hmmm...I can karate chop him in the neck for the same NND with a Multipower approach - remember that you still have to hit each phase to inflict damage, including Choke damage, on a Grabbed target), or by using the non-martial Choke maneuver (which means 1d6 NND only, but you can get better STR to maintain the grab).

The NND's and other elements scale easily with +DC or with CSL's for the martial art, which cannot be placed in frameworks.

 

So what about buying CSLs with HTH damage, only to boost DCs?  At the same -1 1/2, that should be 16/2.5 = 6.4 per added DC.  But +5 STR at no END would be 6 if "only for combat DCs" is -1/4.  And Hand Attack has the same -1/4.

 

Meanwhile, we have all those Talents.  For 20 points, I can buy Weaponsmaster and get +3 DCs with all handguns, or all rifles, or all swords.  For 24, I can add 3 DCs to all HKAs or all RKAs.   But for the same 24 points, I can add 6 DCs - twice as many - to all martial arts maneuvers.

 

So a Fencer could be a Blademaster (+3 DCs with all swords and daggers used as killing attacks) for 20 points, or spend only 12 points for +3 DCs with all martial fencing maneuvers, including those that don't do killing damage.  Even the 12 point Weaponmaster only adds to HKA's, not Disarms or Pins.

 

Something is not priced appropriately...

[eepjr24]

2 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

Steve has not changed these prices - they predate 5e. 

In 4e, HtH Attack cost 3 points with a minimum of 2d6. 4e, 73.

 

2 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

To me, a martial DC is way better than HTH attack.  How much should it cost to buy STR that only enhances combat maneuver effects?  No lifting, including no increase to items that can be picked up and thrown.  I think that might reasonably be a -1/4 limitation, but that would be better than HA, and it would still cost END.  2 Skill Levels with Martial Arts would be 10 points - "only to increase damage classes" at -1 1/2 would give us a 4 point cost.  But then we should be able to make a similar purchase for non-martial HTH maneuvers, shouldn't we?

Okay, I am not understanding something you are saying here.

 

+1 DC for martial arts = 4 points

1d6 HtH Attack = 5 AP plus -1/4 limitation 4 RP

 

Differences:

DC is for martial maneuvers only, which must be purchased individually. HtH attack can be used with or without regular combat maneuvers, must use 1/2 d6 of STR.

DC does not cost END. HtH attack costs END.

DC cannot be limited without GM permission. HtH attack is a power and can be limited normally.

DC cannot be in a power framework without GM permission. HtH attack can be placed in frameworks normally.

 

So out of the gate, I first have to spend 10 points on martial arts to even buy DC. So 14 points for the first DC usable with 3 maneuvers. For 12 points I get +3d6 HtH Attack. Costs endurance, but I can put it in a framework, make it conditional, etc. About even to me, but reasonable people can disagree and players have the choice to pick whichever they like.

 

As to your point on CSL's, they would require GM permission to limit. But lets say the GM let you. And let's further postulate that the 3 pieces of the CSL (OCV, DCV and adding damage) are all equal in value. Limited Power suggests (6e1, 382) that -1 1/2 would be about right for a limitation that removes 2/3rds of the function, so for 2x 5 point levels that would be 4 points, whether they were martial or non-martial, somthing more than 3 maneuvers but less than All HTH (which are 8 point levels). However, as you note below, "Only to increase damage" for skill levels is actually rated at -1/2 in 6e1, 447.

 

2 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

 

So what about buying CSLs with HTH damage, only to boost DCs?  At the same -1 1/2, that should be 16/2.5 = 6.4 per added DC.  But +5 STR at no END would be 6 if "only for combat DCs" is -1/4.  And Hand Attack has the same -1/4.

Yes, they work out slightly different from a math perspective and again have slightly different effects regarding additional limitations, power frameworks, etc.

 

2 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

Meanwhile, we have all those Talents.  For 20 points, I can buy Weaponsmaster and get +3 DCs with all handguns, or all rifles, or all swords.  For 24, I can add 3 DCs to all HKAs or all RKAs.   But for the same 24 points, I can add 6 DCs - twice as many - to all martial arts maneuvers.

Yes. As noted in the description, Weaponmaster is intended primarily for Heroic campaigns where HKA's cost zero character points generally. So I think it is fair that adding damage to those should be more costly than than to something the player paid points for. Again, I can see where others might not agree with the costing, but for their games they can change it as always.

 

2 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

So a Fencer could be a Blademaster (+3 DCs with all swords and daggers used as killing attacks) for 20 points, or spend only 12 points for +3 DCs with all martial fencing maneuvers, including those that don't do killing damage.  Even the 12 point Weaponmaster only adds to HKA's, not Disarms or Pins.

After they paid for the martial maneuvers, yes. Note that they are getting the weapon damage for free, just like everyone else in a Heroic game. 

 

2 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

Something is not priced appropriately...

We can agree to disagree here, it seems. They are not priced mathematically evenly and try to take into account a variety of genre, situational and game mechanics. But I think short of splitting the genres it's a pretty good balance (which I am not in favor of generally, but would be fine with optional rules that represent them). And as always, we are welcome to tweak the things we don't like.

 

- E

[Hugh Neilson]

1 hour ago, eepjr24 said:

In 4e, HtH Attack cost 3 points with a minimum of 2d6. 4e, 73.

 

And in 4e, 1 DC with Martial Arts cost 4 points.  Steve has not altered the price of that DC, and he was not the one to initially set it.  Your suggestion we need to know what was in his mind is therefore not relevant.

 

1 hour ago, eepjr24 said:

Okay, I am not understanding something you are saying here.

 

To start with, I am saying the pricing of DCs is not consistent. 

 

1 hour ago, eepjr24 said:

+1 DC for martial arts = 4 points

1d6 HtH Attack = 5 AP plus -1/4 limitation 4 RP

 

Differences:

DC is for martial maneuvers only, which must be purchased individually. HtH attack can be used with or without regular combat maneuvers, must use 1/2 d6 of STR.

DC does not cost END. HtH attack costs END.

DC cannot be limited without GM permission. HtH attack is a power and can be limited normally.

DC cannot be in a power framework without GM permission. HtH attack can be placed in frameworks normally.

 

Blasts and KAs have to be purchased, but you don't get to add 0 END DCs to them for 4 points per DC.

 

DC for martial maneuvers adds to all maneuvers, including NNDs (which STR would not enhance normally) and all of the elements that STR would add to normally (like Shoving, Grabbing, Escaping and Disarming).  What limitation would you place on STR that does not enhance anything but direct damage?  I guess that is not limited, because you only get -1/4 for removing everything but direct damage.  But for the same price, a martial artist can enhance all of his DCs, with the added bonus of paying no END.

 

1 hour ago, eepjr24 said:

So out of the gate, I first have to spend 10 points on martial arts to even buy DC. So 14 points for the first DC usable with 3 maneuvers. For 12 points I get +3d6 HtH Attack. Costs endurance, but I can put it in a framework, make it conditional, etc. About even to me, but reasonable people can disagree and players have the choice to pick whichever they like.

 

This suggests that those 10 points on Martial Arts carry no other benefits.  Each of those maneuvers has enhanced CVs and/or damage classes that the guy with HTH attack did not get.

 

1 hour ago, eepjr24 said:

As to your point on CSL's, they would require GM permission to limit. But lets say the GM let you. And let's further postulate that the 3 pieces of the CSL (OCV, DCV and adding damage) are all equal in value. Limited Power suggests (6e1, 382) that -1 1/2 would be about right for a limitation that removes 2/3rds of the function, so for 2x 5 point levels that would be 4 points, whether they were martial or non-martial, somthing more than 3 maneuvers but less than All HTH (which are 8 point levels). However, as you note below, "Only to increase damage" for skill levels is actually rated at -1/2 in 6e1, 447.

 

You require GM permission for pretty much everything, although it is specified for skills.

 

That -1/2 is a significant undervaluation of the limitation, IMO.  The rest of the skill level - only one third of the cost - is then the logical cost for a skill level that lacks only the ability to add damage.  This is especially so when we consider that the cost of the skill levels was itself based on the cost of a Multipower of OCV, DCV and "some floating damage class" that cannot be otherwise purchased directly.  2 8 point "all HTH" combat skill levels are effectively a 10 point multipower of three variable slots, being +2 OCV, +2 DCV and +1 DC that costs 0 END.

 

Based on Weaponmaster, why should a Martial Arts DC be something other than 2 5 point Skill Levels, only to increase DCs of attacks?  If -1/2 is the appropriate limitation, then martial arts DCs should cost about 7 points (20 points for 3 of them).    Or they should be 8 point levels, only damage, only Martial Arts,  Getting 2 8 point DCs down to 4 points suggests "only for martial arts" is a -2 1/2 limitation.  That seems very high to me.

 

Although the pricing of Deadly Blow indicates "only with weapons", how many of us would deny a race with claws the ability to enhance them with Deadly Blow?

 

 

 

[Steve]

One of the things I like about the idea of starting with stripped-down, lower-priced martial arts maneuvers is that buying them can provide a feeling of learning and improvement, especially in lower-pointed campaigns.

 

Instead of saving up and buying ten points of maneuvers all at once, why not do it slowly, paying in a point or two at a time?

 

Start with Martial Strike, paying a point to get either the first +1d6 in damage or +1 DCV HTH. Then slowly add more points to it and other maneuvers as you gain experience.