Guest Hunter1 Posted December 10, 2003 Report Share Posted December 10, 2003 I have always wondered what would happen if these two had to fight. Dr. Fate, Kent Nelson in his civilian idenity, is can practically do anything with his magic. However, the source of his powers is Nabu's helmet. He has to have it on. Dr. Strange, the Sorcerer Supreme, does not rely on just one magical item. Even without his cloak and amulet, he can cast spells. I would have to give this one to Dr. Strange. I have seen him take on and defeat villains far more powerful than him. Yes, Dr. Fate is far more powerful than Dr. Strange, but he isn't as smart. I hope that others who are more familar with there characters will post their opinions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trebuchet Posted December 10, 2003 Report Share Posted December 10, 2003 I agree with your assessment. Without his helmet Kent Nelson is useless. He's a mystical version of Iron Man: No costume, no hero. I see Nelson as almost the DNPC of the Helmet of Nabu. Even his wife seems to have considerable powers of her own, more than he does without it.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted December 10, 2003 Report Share Posted December 10, 2003 We had a poll on this subject back in February - Strange cleaned Fate's cape: http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=413&highlight=strange+fate Just to bring you up to date: the current Dr. Fate is the son of the Golden Age Hawkman, who used to be the Silver Scarab of Infinity Inc. He's still pretty new to the power of Dr. Fate, so this incarnation of Fate would IMHO have little chance against the vast experience of Dr. Strange. It would be a much closer match if Strange is up against the classic Dr. Fate - Kent Nelson's body possessed by the spirit of a Lord of Order. In that form Fate was a virtual god. Nonetheless I'd still give it to Strange, because Steven has had lots of practice battling gods. He ultimately wins due to his matchless skill, brilliant insights, and indomitable will. When it comes to magic, Dr. Strange is simply the best there is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigil Posted December 10, 2003 Report Share Posted December 10, 2003 I beg to disagree I think that Dr. Fate (if we're talking Kent Nelson) would walk all over Doc Strange. Strange just doesn't operate on the kind of power levels that Fate manipulates with ease. Remember, Fate went toe to toe with the Spectre and almsot pulled it off. Strange has never done that with Dormamu has he? What Strange has going for him is a subtle guile and sneakiness which Fate in his bulldozer like directness lacks. I would certainly see Starnge as being the more subtle and scheming of the two but a deer in the headlights can scheme all it wants but it's not going to stop the Mac truck from turning you into street pizza. Plus I think Fate's ability to wield magic and his own scheming nature are understated. Remember, he had literally decades of continous experience (most of which we didn't see since we weren't on Earth 2) while Nabu had millenia before that. There aren't many tricks you don't come across in that time. So, hands down, no contest, Dr. Fate Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent X Posted December 10, 2003 Report Share Posted December 10, 2003 Re: I beg to disagree Originally posted by Vigil I think that Dr. Fate (if we're talking Kent Nelson) would walk all over Doc Strange. Strange just doesn't operate on the kind of power levels that Fate manipulates with ease. Remember, Fate went toe to toe with the Spectre and almsot pulled it off. Strange has never done that with Dormamu has he? What Strange has going for him is a subtle guile and sneakiness which Fate in his bulldozer like directness lacks. I would certainly see Starnge as being the more subtle and scheming of the two but a deer in the headlights can scheme all it wants but it's not going to stop the Mac truck from turning you into street pizza. Plus I think Fate's ability to wield magic and his own scheming nature are understated. Remember, he had literally decades of continous experience (most of which we didn't see since we weren't on Earth 2) while Nabu had millenia before that. There aren't many tricks you don't come across in that time. So, hands down, no contest, Dr. Fate Strange routinely runs circles around cosmic beings (Dormammu anyone, Mephisto anyone) who control entire universes. You can reason all you want about what Dr. Fate should be capable of but, as written, he couldn't handle someone who has done the things Dr. Strange has done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue Posted December 10, 2003 Report Share Posted December 10, 2003 They don't call him Master of the Mystic arts fer nuttin'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phydaux Posted December 10, 2003 Report Share Posted December 10, 2003 Throwing my vote for Dr. Strange. I doubt it would even be close. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oruncrest Posted December 10, 2003 Report Share Posted December 10, 2003 Originally posted by Trebuchet I agree with your assessment. Without his helmet Kent Nelson is useless. He's a mystical version of Iron Man: No costume, no hero. I see Nelson as almost the DNPC of the Helmet of Nabu. Even his wife seems to have considerable powers of her own, more than he does without it.. Actually, Kent has super powers without the helmet: Flight, Telekinesis, great strength (he once threw a man through a boat), Intangebility (this ability was later dropped in favor of his becoming bulletproof) and not a little sorcery himself (in his retconned origin, Kent had destroy Nabu's body (with an elderich blast) in order to get the Helmet of Nabu). What the Helmet of Nabu brings to the table is greater magical power and the knowledge of Nabu, a Lord of Order who, like Galactus has seen the Death and rebirth of the universe. Many times over. Dr Fate has fought Universe-beaters (the Lords of Chaos) and technically is only half as powerful as he should be (seems that Kent alone is only part of the equasion. to achieve full power, he must also merge with his wife, Inza). At full power, nobody is a match for him. Fate kicked the butts of a lord of Chaos and a fellow Lord of Order in seconds. He'd go through Dr. Strange, Dormammu, Umar, Mephisto, Satannish, and pretty much any other Marvel mage like corn thru a goose. I'd even give just plain Kent Nelson good odds against Strange (from the few stories I've seen involving Strange, I've noticed that his powers require Gestures. Telekinese those hands together and the good Doctor is in for a world of hurt). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigil Posted December 10, 2003 Report Share Posted December 10, 2003 Straight up, Oruncrest! You da man! lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hermit Posted December 10, 2003 Report Share Posted December 10, 2003 Originally posted by Oruncrest I'd even give just plain Kent Nelson good odds against Strange (from the few stories I've seen involving Strange, I've noticed that his powers require Gestures. Telekinese those hands together and the good Doctor is in for a world of hurt). Strange's magic doesn't require gestures, he just uses them a lot. Everytime in the stories someone wraps his hands, he just switches to incantations. Block that, and it's will power and concentration spells, or summoning the cloak or Amulet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted December 10, 2003 Report Share Posted December 10, 2003 Good point about Strange's magic, Hermit; Allen Varney called the archaic words and wiggling fingers pure S/FX with no practical game effects in Mystic Masters, while Dean Shomshak in The Ultimate Super Mage used Variable Limitations to represent that these super-sorcerors never seemed to have to do something specific to cast specific spells. Oruncrest, I have to admit that you make a very good case. However (I will now indulge in one of those pointlessly subjective "who's better" debates ) , I've noticed that the more powerful a being in comics is, the less subtlety and ingenuity he tends to use, relying more on brute force. That's just the sort of opponent that Dr. Strange is so good at finessing. Strange beat the In-Betweener, a being affected by no single force who could affect everything else in existence, by calling on the combined power of his creators, Lord Chaos and Master Order. When the present-day Dormammu incarnated himself on Earth in the past, Strange tricked the past version of Dormammu into blasting his future self. Oh, and Strange once totally freaked out Galactus by showing him the images of all the sentient beings he had ever destroyed. Would the supremely powered Dr. Fate push Dr. Strange to his limits? Quite likely. Would I wager against Strange? That's never a smart bet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eyendasky80 Posted December 10, 2003 Report Share Posted December 10, 2003 If you've been reading JSA, you'd know that Hector is really coming into his own. I'm really torn because Doc Strange is pretty kick ass too. Hector v. Stephen? Strange is a schemer, but Hector is too. The part about Hector that's really exciting is that it's been revealed that the voices of Kent, Nabu and company are actually his own subconscious guiding him. So he's even more formidable than anyone gave him credit for previously. I'm leaning towards draw on this one. They seem a very even match to me. If pressed, I'm going to say Fate. Hector is looking good, his confidence is up and he's riding high after beating Mordru, his big baddie. Coincidently, he defeated him in a similar fashion as the Strange v. Galactus fight mentioned in the thread. He showed him visions, but of Mordru's future as opposed to his victims. He was so distressed by his fate Hector was able to subdue him and seal him in the Rock of Eternity. And this was all while Mordru was in possesion of the Helm of Nabu. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Posted December 10, 2003 Report Share Posted December 10, 2003 Dr. Strange would ultimately defeat Dr. Fate. Fate operates on a belief system and a magic system of absolute black and white. Strange sees all the shades of grey. All Fate has backing him up are the Lords of Order. Strange has been pitted against Gods and won. He has defeated planets and avatars of whole universes. Plus, Fate is not very SKILLED with magic. Even Nabu isn't very skilled. They were granted the use of magical powers by the Lords of Order. Dr. Strange is VERY VERY SKILLED at the use of magic in many forms and from many sources. He calls on many other dimensional powers, any one set of which would be a match for the Lords of Order, as well as his own personal magical abilities. Dr. Strange would win. He could probably convince the Lords of Order that Dr. Fate wasn't serving their needs properly and get his powers stripped! Or he could cause such a conflcit between the Lords of Order and the Lords of Chaos that they had to withdraw their patronage from Dr. Fate to protect themselves on a direct front! Fate would be toast. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost who Walks Posted December 10, 2003 Report Share Posted December 10, 2003 There is a reason I dislike supermages, and all the reasons have been stated above. For the battle, I would be on Fate. All he has to do is wait, and Strange will die of old age, or in some senseless battle with another cosmic being. Fate however, will just hand his helmet over to the next Fate, who will buy up all of Strange stuff at the yardsale after the funeral. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyBoy Posted December 10, 2003 Report Share Posted December 10, 2003 I'm gonna have to go with Strange here as well. If it were Strange vs. Spectre, now that would be a fight... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Posted December 10, 2003 Report Share Posted December 10, 2003 Originally posted by Ghost who Walks There is a reason I dislike supermages, and all the reasons have been stated above. For the battle, I would be on Fate. All he has to do is wait, and Strange will die of old age, or in some senseless battle with another cosmic being. Fate however, will just hand his helmet over to the next Fate, who will buy up all of Strange stuff at the yardsale after the funeral. Think so? Dr. Strange defeated Death, and will live for millenia baring getting himself killed defending Earth, just as his mentor The Ancient One did. (Anyone else think it sad that many of us remember this trivia, but can't find our car keys in the morning...?) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Posted December 10, 2003 Report Share Posted December 10, 2003 Originally posted by Ghost who Walks There is a reason I dislike supermages, and all the reasons have been stated above. For the battle, I would be on Fate. All he has to do is wait, and Strange will die of old age, or in some senseless battle with another cosmic being. Fate however, will just hand his helmet over to the next Fate, who will buy up all of Strange stuff at the yardsale after the funeral. Think so? Dr. Strange defeated Death, and will live for millenia baring getting himself killed defending Earth, just as his mentor The Ancient One did. (Anyone else think it sad that many of us remember this trivia, but can't find our car keys in the morning...?) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Posted December 10, 2003 Report Share Posted December 10, 2003 Originally posted by Ghost who Walks There is a reason I dislike supermages, and all the reasons have been stated above. For the battle, I would be on Fate. All he has to do is wait, and Strange will die of old age, or in some senseless battle with another cosmic being. Fate however, will just hand his helmet over to the next Fate, who will buy up all of Strange stuff at the yardsale after the funeral. Think so? Dr. Strange defeated Death as a part of his trial to become Sorceror Supreme. He will live agelessly for millenia. He will see each wearer of the helmet grow old, die, and get a replacement. (Anyone else think it sad many of us remember this trivia, but can't find our car keys in the morning...?) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Posted December 10, 2003 Report Share Posted December 10, 2003 OK, now you know my memory is bad. I posted twice! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent X Posted December 10, 2003 Report Share Posted December 10, 2003 Originally posted by Ghost who Walks There is a reason I dislike supermages, and all the reasons have been stated above. For the battle, I would be on Fate. All he has to do is wait, and Strange will die of old age, or in some senseless battle with another cosmic being. Fate however, will just hand his helmet over to the next Fate, who will buy up all of Strange stuff at the yardsale after the funeral. Hey, it's not Dr. Strange vs. Dr. Fates. If we're going there we should just say Sorceror Supremes vs. Dr. Fates. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent X Posted December 10, 2003 Report Share Posted December 10, 2003 Another problem with the raw power angle aside from the assumption that Dr. Strange's ability to channel power from various sources is less powerful than the innate powers of Dr. Fate and Helmet (which I haven't been sold on). Van Helsing is a vampire killer. He beats Dracula who I think everyone would agree is far more powerful. Dr. Strange is a Sorceror Supreme. It's his job to beat back supernatural threats, sometimes those threats are more powerful but he succeeds anyway. He has demonstrated time and again the ability to beat people who I think outrank Dr. Fate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hermit Posted December 10, 2003 Report Share Posted December 10, 2003 Originally posted by Kevin OK, now you know my memory is bad. I posted twice! Don't worry... more likely the board just hicupped. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost who Walks Posted December 10, 2003 Report Share Posted December 10, 2003 Originally posted by Kevin Think so? Dr. Strange defeated Death, and will live for millenia baring getting himself killed defending Earth, just as his mentor The Ancient One did. (Anyone else think it sad that many of us remember this trivia, but can't find our car keys in the morning...?) While the rest of us continue to die...Great guy that Doctor Strange. And the battle is against all the Dr. Fates, since much of the power lies in the magic hat. Essentially, it is Dr. Fate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vondy Posted December 11, 2003 Report Share Posted December 11, 2003 Dr. Strange the last time I checked these two had a published showdown in a crossover several years back and strange walked all over fate Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent X Posted December 11, 2003 Report Share Posted December 11, 2003 Originally posted by D-Man Dr. Strange the last time I checked these two had a published showdown in a crossover several years back and strange walked all over fate Game... Set... Match Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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