New to Hero question

[Gandalf970]

I am just learning Hero, but I have a lot of Fantasy RPG experience.  I read that weapons can only double their DC for damage, does this include CSL and talents like Weaponmaster.  I am using 6E if that helps.  Thanks in advance.

[Ternaugh]

1 hour ago, Gandalf970 said:

I am just learning Hero, but I have a lot of Fantasy RPG experience.  I read that weapons can only double their DC for damage, does this include CSL and talents like Weaponmaster.  I am using 6E if that helps.  Thanks in advance.

 

Yes, in general, weapon damage is limited to being raised to twice the DC from all factors, including Combat Skill Levels, Martial Arts, Combat Manuvers and STR. 

[Gandalf970]

I did a search and didn't really find my answer.  I want to use magic and don't want to stray to far from what The Grimoire uses or Fantasy Hero as the standard in my first play to get used to the mechanics.  Is there a magic roll against the Magic Skill and then the negatives by the spell and then you must roll the attack roll to see if it hits?  Also for endurance is it the active points as the END cost or the total without limitations?

[Ternaugh]

If a spell or power has Requires a Skill Roll (RSR), then that roll would need to be made (with appropriate penalties) before the effect goes off. Depending on the type of spell or power, an additional attack roll may be necessary.

 

Active Points includes Advantages, but not Limitations. RSR penalties and END Cost are based upon Active Points.

 

Real Cost is the cost of the power or spell in Character Points, and is the Active Cost modified by Limitations.

[Scott Ruggels]

Welcome to Hero.  Generally, yes, you have the shape of it. mage declares their intention to cast a spell on their phase. First they make their magic skill roll, then their attack roll, and with a hit, then damage roll.  This all depends on how the magic for the campaign is constructed.  Avatar: The Last Airbender works differently, in that "Bending" as i see it would require complex Gestures (Two hands plus posing), and an Ego Roll to control it, plus any skill levels with Controlling, but then roll against a hex's DCV of 3, because most Bending attacks seem to be Area of Effect attacks. Magic can be built anyway you deem appropriate for the campaign background. There is no one set standard way to make a magic system, but it is advised to make the system consistent within the campaign.

[Panpiper]

45 minutes ago, Gandalf970 said:

Is there a magic roll against the Magic Skill and then the negatives by the spell and then you must roll the attack roll to see if it hits?

 

Just to be clear. There is no magic roll required on anything unless the spell/power/framework has taken the limitation 'requires a skill roll'.

[Ninja-Bear]

Gandalf970 congrats for joining too. Btw if you are playing Heroic level of Hero system typically weapons also have a STR min. For your first battle or two I would suggest putting aside STar min. (It affects how much STar damage can be added to a weapon) and even the doubling rule. (Typically Fantasy characters don’t have enough STR to surpass the doubling anyway.) Just make sure somebody doesn’t have enough armor to block say a dagger completely of damage. And once you get the feel of things just add as needed or wanted. FWIW, my group ignores advantages for STR min. and go with a straight 5 STR. Congrats again. 

[Gandalf970]

Just so I have this right.  I am looking at the spell "Fire Arrow" in the Grimoire.  It has a Magic Roll of -6 and a 6 END cost.  The player would first make a magic roll at -6 (Is there a cap on how high a Skill can be in Fantasy Hero?), then an attack roll using... The magic roll again, with negatives applied for range and cover maybe.  Do the defenders get to use DCV?  Or is it the OMCV?  Any help would be appreciated.

[Chris Goodwin]

Just now, Gandalf970 said:

Just so I have this right.  I am looking at the spell "Fire Arrow" in the Grimoire.  It has a Magic Roll of -6 and a 6 END cost.  The player would first make a magic roll at -6 (Is there a cap on how high a Skill can be in Fantasy Hero?), then an attack roll using... The magic roll again, with negatives applied for range and cover maybe.  Do the defenders get to use DCV?  Or is it the OMCV?  Any help would be appreciated.

 

They would make the magic roll at -6, then assuming that's successful they'd make their attack roll with their OCV against the target's DCV, along with modifiers for range, cover, Combat Skill Levels, combat maneuvers, and so on.  

 

There aren't typically caps on Skills, other than those set by the GM.  It's possible for characters to buy their Magic Skill up to the point where all of their spells are effectively at 17- (because any roll of 18 is an automatic failure), but there are ways for the GM to work around that.  

[Chris Goodwin]

1 hour ago, Chris Goodwin said:

 

They would make the magic roll at -6, then assuming that's successful they'd make their attack roll with their OCV against the target's DCV, along with modifiers for range, cover, Combat Skill Levels, combat maneuvers, and so on.  

 

There aren't typically caps on Skills, other than those set by the GM.  It's possible for characters to buy their Magic Skill up to the point where all of their spells are effectively at 17- (because any roll of 18 is an automatic failure), but there are ways for the GM to work around that.  

 

And to follow up... 

 

For instance, the GM could set up their magic system so that there are "tiers" of spells.  Every spell falls into one of four tiers: Basic, Intermediate, Advanced, and Master.  A spellcaster buys all of the spells at the highest tier they can cast with Requires A Magic Skill Roll at the -1 per 5 Active Points level.  Once they have learned a total of at least 10 Real Points worth of spells within the Basic tier they can buy those down to -1 per 10 Active Points; once all of their Basic tier spells are at -1 per 10 Active, they can start learning Intermediate tier spells at -1 per 5.  In order to start learning the Advanced spells, they need to get all of their Basic spells at -1 per 20, which then lets them in turn improve their Intermediate tier spells to -1 per 10, at which point they can start learning the Advanced spells at -1 per 5.  

 

Characters can throw fewer Active Points in a spell and improve their Magic Skill Roll.  Let's say I attempt my Fire Arrow spell at full power (-6 to my roll), but biff it.  My next Phase, I decide to throw it at half power instead (for -3 instead of -6) and succeed this time. 

 

There are other ways to go about it as well.  The GM might require that all spells be bought at -1 per 5 Active Points, but allow characters to make Complementary Skill Rolls with Knowledge or Science Skills related to the schools of magic, so that a character with a 60 Active Point fire spell, who would be casting at -12, might be able to make SS: Thaumatology and KS: Fire Magic Skill Rolls in order to gain bonuses.  

 

I've come up with a Talent known as Affinity.  You would buy it as Skill Levels, which can be allocated to any of the following: your Magic Skill Roll, your OCV, Damage Class (at 2 levels per +1 DC), or any mundane Skills relating to your affinity.  So a character might have Affinity: +3 with Fire, in which case they could get +3 to cast a Fire Spell, or they might use +1 of that on their casting roll and +2 on Damage Classes.  They might have spells in a different school that affect or modify fire magic, and the GM might let them use their Affinity with those as well; for instance, Dispel and Aid might be part of the Metamagic school, but the character with Fire Affinity can get their bonus when Dispelling or Aiding fire magic.  

[Gandalf970]

Thanks Chris I appreciate all of your help.

[Panpiper]

I have found that a lot of people's approaches to magic tend to be extremely restrictive, so as to rein in potential abuse and excessive power. However in a great many cases magic users wind up SO restricted, they are less useful by quite a margin than say someone who built a thieving archer with good skills or whatever. Personally I prefer to give players quite a bit of leeway in how they want to build characters. However I have an absolute rule which I make very clear to all players at the outset. The character build they submit is NOT their character build. It is a 'strong' suggestion.

 

If someone turns in a character that is well built, interesting, has no unintentional flaws, and fits within the intended power level of the game, they will wind up with the exact character they submitted. If a character is too powerful, they will get back the same character, toned down to the appropriate power. Conversely, if they turn in a character that is too weak, or that has glaring flaws in design, I will improve their character for them so they won't regret. I will not of course violate their conceptions and back stories, as long as they can somehow fit within the world.

[Ninja-Bear]

3 hours ago, Gandalf970 said:

Just so I have this right.  I am looking at the spell "Fire Arrow" in the Grimoire.  It has a Magic Roll of -6 and a 6 END cost.  The player would first make a magic roll at -6 (Is there a cap on how high a Skill can be in Fantasy Hero?), then an attack roll using... The magic roll again, with negatives applied for range and cover maybe.  Do the defenders get to use DCV?  Or is it the OMCV?  Any help would be appreciated.

One other thing cause I looked this up. (I’m converting an older Fantasy Hero to 6th). Unless the spell has some sort of limitation that forces the user to cast at Full Power, the caster can choose to cast it at lesser Power and thus at the caster will have a lesser negative magic skill roll and lesser END cost.

[Ninja-Bear]

Also Gandalf970 the magic user can have an item which bonus to cast spells. ( Well a host of other things too but I’ll keep it simple.) Say an amulet of the Phoenix which grants a +3 to Magic Rolls.  So the caster having this item would cast Fire Bolt spell then at -3.

[Gandalf970]

Thanks Ninja-Bear this helps alot.

[Gandalf970]

Looking at Powers (spells) can you drain speed?  How would that work for active points?

[Ninja-Bear]

3 minutes ago, Gandalf970 said:

Looking at Powers (spells) can you drain speed?  How would that work for active points?

In 6th it’s easier. You by the Power Drain vs Speed. Roll your dice and every 10 points you lose 1 SPEED.  I’m not super up on Drain since I don’t use it a lot. But that’s the gist of it. Btw Power Defense blocks some of the Drain dice like armor vs killing attack.

[Gandalf970]

Another question I had.  Weapons can only double there DC maximum.  What if the weapons were made out of a different material, would you then just increase the base STR of the weapon or how would that work. 

[Ninja-Bear]

24 minutes ago, Gandalf970 said:

Another question I had.  Weapons can only double there DC maximum.  What if the weapons were made out of a different material, would you then just increase the base STR of the weapon or how would that work. 

Ok here’s the thing about the doubling rule in 6th even though it’s recommend for weapons especially ones that have the real weapon limitation (I believe in this case you must use the doubling rule) by default it isn’t a rule unless the GM enforces it. So the easiest thing would be remove the real world limitation (or by GM fiat) and say this magical weapon can do more than double its base. 

[Panpiper]

43 minutes ago, Gandalf970 said:

Another question I had.  Weapons can only double there DC maximum.  What if the weapons were made out of a different material, would you then just increase the base STR of the weapon or how would that work. 

 

It's not just the material, it's the size of the blade, the weight with which it strikes, etc.. A character could define/create a weapon that was made of some esoteric substance/design, but the way to do that would be that they would have to pay character points and build the item using the rules complete with limitations like Obvious Accessible Focus, Real Weapon, Strength Minimum, etc..  Owning the weapon would be something listed in the powers section of their character sheet, for which they pay points.To do more than a standard weapon, it would simply be bought as a more powerful version, doing more dice than standard, so that more too could be doubled. They don't pay for just the additional damage, they pay points for the full amount of the construct.

 

Be mindful of this sort of thing however. It is not terribly hard for a veteran player to create a character that will butcher everything it meets unless you as a GM get a 'lot' more creative. Usually it is a good idea to stick with recommended power levels, which the existing weapons fit nicely within.

[Ninja-Bear]

Gandalf970 one thing about Hero system is that it is a very flexible system which can be good or bad. So don’t feel you have to get it exactly right out of the gate to enjoy the game.  Just start with the basics and add in as you like and if something doesn’t work for you remove it. Also two other rules with are listed in 6th core rules.

 

Just because a build is legal doesn’t mean you have you use it.

 

Conversely just because a rule says this is illegal doesn’t mean that for your game you can’t use it.

 

Have fun! 

[Gandalf970]

Ninja-Bear, Panpiper, Chris, Scott and Ternaugh 

    I really appreciate all the help.  I understand I don't have to follow RAW, but I like to in my first couple of times running a campaign so I get a feel and understand it.  That way I don't make some rulings that can wreck my game.  My group is great, we have been playing together for 30 years.  We are so old that we tried Hero 1st Edition because it was written with Rolemaster rules as well (our favorite game, before 6th edition Hero) and said let's wait until a new one comes out.

 

We are having a great time with it and are really into the Fantasy aspect, especially since we play Fantasy Grounds D&D 5E (which is a good edition of D&D) and will say ugh the level only allows us this.  Once you break through the initial task of understanding the mechanics it's hands down the best system for us.  We appreciate the Low Fantasy type worlds, but are discussing some dark magic, voodoo, witchcraft being in one of our campaigns.

 

Thanks again all.  I am sure I will have more questions and truly appreciate the warm welcome on these forums.

[Ninja-Bear]

Not a problem Gandalf970! The thing about RAW and I totally get it. I too try to stay to RAW as much as possible. Sometimes though RAW can get in the way of learning the system. Or in Hero system the analogy is dials and switches turned on or off. I just wanted to feel welcomed to choose which switches per se YOU want for now there is no wrong. Have fun!

[Brian Stanfield]

3 hours ago, Gandalf970 said:

We appreciate the Low Fantasy type worlds, but are discussing some dark magic, voodoo, witchcraft being in one of our campaigns.

 

The nice thing about low fantasy is that mundane weapons, STR minimums and CHAR maximums, etc., will make the damage doubling less of a problem. If you were going to play all-out animé fantasy with ten foot flaming swords or whatever, it's a lot harder to cap the damage. The magic that does exist in low fantasy is more ritualistic in nature, and is also inherently limited by extended time constraints, rituals, etc.

[Gandalf970]

Thank you Brian