Spence

I on the other hand believe that one of the key reasons Hero is dying on the vine is NOT having pre-built PC's designed to compliment a pre-built adventure.
The end design is for everyone to understand the game enough to play it.
 
Heroes actual play rules are simple (to hit, to succeed, to damage, to change, etc.)
 
Heroes point build system is simple (it's just basic math)
 
Heroes design philosophy is so different and arcane to the average person it is extremely difficult to grok by players of other TTRPGs and virtually impossible to grok by Video RPG gamers.  Even here we constantly see players, even some veterans, asking how to build something and they start off by naming a listed "power" that sounds close as the base.  Instead of explaining in plain language (no Hero build speak) what they want to achieve. 
 
Yes, in the end every player will want to make completely custom PC's.
But before they can do that they need to have some idea of just what a STR of X means in the context of the setting they are playing.  Of just what 6d6 damage means in the context of the setting they are playing.
 
And that context changes GM to GM.  If we set the standards as a beginning game for 400 point Heroes and I built a campaign/setting and you built a campaign/setting for the same.  I might have high powered version where 8d6 is average for damage, while you might go a path where 6d6 is average.  Or 10d6.  The point is that "acceptable" and "average" in the Hero System are ever sliding goalposts. 
 
You can't actually learn a game if the parameters keep changing. 
 
Hero needs a fixed reference basic setting.
It should have a intro mini-campaign using pre-generated PC's so that the new player and GM can gain an initial understanding of the game while standing on firm ground, before they get kicked into the quicksand.
 
Just from the beginning the rule book requires the new player to make decisions they have no understanding of.
 
Normals
Standard Skilled Competent Herioc
Standard Powerful Very Powerful Superheroic
Low-Powered Standard High-Powered Very High-Powered Cosmically Powerful Yes, they all have point values, but what do those values actually mean?  In the gut?  In actual play?
 
If the campaign makes a decision and picks one.  And then builds everything to that decision including pre-generated Heroes, the new players and GM will have a defined starting point to learn the system.   And once they complete to intro campaign they now have a reference point for later use when they go their own way.  
 
Don't get me wrong, the books do a great job in trying to explain things, but like most it doesn't sink in until you actually do it.  
 
I teach technicians and engineers about on-aircraft systems all the time, both upgrades to existing systems and newly deployed systems.  We build in "classroom" time where we go over things in detail.  But for the vast majority of people the lights really don't come on completely until we go to an aircraft and fire up the system and they see things real time.  Suddenly it becomes easy. 
 
The Hero System (any edition) is an open ended one that sits on a fluid foundation.  Unfortunately you can't play open ended on fluid. 
Decisions have to add limits and set a solid foundation. 
 
 

All too fidgety for me.
 
The damage STR can add to an object is limited by the def/bdy of the object.  Grond may have the potential for 6d6, but the hat pin will snap long before.

Power levels / attacks / defenses.
Discussion of combat, including some (light) analysis of attack dice vs. defenses (i.e., 7 defense will stop 2d6 half the time).
Discussion on how to play, GM tips, player tips.
 
All the stuff that isn't actually setting, example characters, and the adventure / campaign.

oh
oh....
oh.......
 
Curse you L. Marcus! 
 
I had finally forgotten that steaming pile and now you have restored every painful moment to my memory
 
The only movie worse than Starship Troopers on earth.... 

*Have to* have?  No.  Why are they often used?  Familiar tropes.  Orcs - primitive, brutish, violent.  Dwarves - underground, mining, obsessed with material things.  Just like human tropes - Vikings, Romans, Horse Nomads.  You have a good idea of where they fit in to the world with little explanation needed.

PCs must pay for their bases, because freebasing is illegal

To base, or not to base, THAT is the question...
 
I'm all 'bout that base, 'bout that base, no trouble...
 
(Couldn't help myself...)

I don't think that's dumb at all. I plan on doing exactly that very thing: going through the magazines, updating the adventures, and figuring out which fit together well into a campaign form and stitching several groups together into specific types of classic campaign runs for Champions.  They're just sitting there waiting to be used, and I say we use the work of all these creators over the years (yes, even Gilt Complex).

Dumb but potentially,marketable idea:
 
Tie the scenarios from Adventurers club-  all of them were pretty straight forward- into a single plotline and go from there.

Well, in the end I like bases and do not consider then a waste of points. 
 
Both as a players and as a GM for my villains. 
 
Every true villain worth their salt has a secret base......

And old one but a good one. 
I've played in a few one shots as well as a campaign that kicked off when the existing super team "went missing". 
 
Another idea is to amplify an existing item into a full fledged campaign. 
My favorite Hero published adventure is Shades of Black.  It is also one that I have never been able to play or run.  The problem is that the characters and content are tied to much to the PC's being familiar with previous events and simply "investigating" them doesn't feel right.    In other words Shade of Black is a fantastic climax or a Chapter Four (or Five) of a campaign. 
 
I'd love to see someone give SoB the full campaign treatment.  D&D5th's Ghosts of Saltmarsh is an example of the type of product.  They took several existing adventures, added as needed to get a 1st level thru 11th.  Added some campaign content and made it a campaign.  The events leading up to SoB could make a great campaign with SoB being the grand finale.  The "setting" part could flesh out the locations and towns in the campaign as well as add guidance on playing detectives and performing investigations.
 
A real Campaign. 
 
 
 
 
 

I'm glad. The trailers look horrible.

Well the end reality is a yes/no choice.
As they are, the Hero books that contain setting or NPC/Creature information are just disjointed blocks of data or, as in the case of the "universe" books, extremely high level overviews.  None are "playable".  Now I 100% agree that other games also have identical product.  The major difference is that other systems actually have playable campaigns and allow you to use material from their core books, but not all of it.  D&D allows creative commons to use monster stat blocks from the monster manual but not the full descriptive text.  The limited material hasn't stopped people buying the MM because the use of stat blocks does not give all the information, it simply makes it convenient when running the scenario.
 
To really make people want to buy the various Hero books (villains, bestiary, city books, etc) they need a reason to need them.  With no Champions Superhero Campaign to run, why do I need Champions'verse villains? 
 
That is why my project is a self-contained Fantasy Hero starter campaign that is a small slice of the world that, hopefully, will be easy to slide into other campaigns.  Or be a starting point that can be easily moves away from as the players and GM discover their own style.   The point of the starter campaign to either be just a starting place to learn the game and be forgotten or as a launch point to expand from if they like the setting concept.
 
The negative side is that it won't "plug into" any of the existing company books.   
 

Well the end reality is a yes/no choice.
As they are, the Hero books that contain setting or NPC/Creature information are just disjointed blocks of data or, as in the case of the "universe" books, extremely high level overviews.  None are "playable".  Now I 100% agree that other games also have identical product.  The major difference is that other systems actually have playable campaigns and allow you to use material from their core books, but not all of it.  D&D allows creative commons to use monster stat blocks from the monster manual but not the full descriptive text.  The limited material hasn't stopped people buying the MM because the use of stat blocks does not give all the information, it simply makes it convenient when running the scenario.
 
To really make people want to buy the various Hero books (villains, bestiary, city books, etc) they need a reason to need them.  With no Champions Superhero Campaign to run, why do I need Champions'verse villains? 
 
That is why my project is a self-contained Fantasy Hero starter campaign that is a small slice of the world that, hopefully, will be easy to slide into other campaigns.  Or be a starting point that can be easily moves away from as the players and GM discover their own style.   The point of the starter campaign to either be just a starting place to learn the game and be forgotten or as a launch point to expand from if they like the setting concept.
 
The negative side is that it won't "plug into" any of the existing company books.   
 

I on the other hand believe that one of the key reasons Hero is dying on the vine is NOT having pre-built PC's designed to compliment a pre-built adventure.
The end design is for everyone to understand the game enough to play it.
 
Heroes actual play rules are simple (to hit, to succeed, to damage, to change, etc.)
 
Heroes point build system is simple (it's just basic math)
 
Heroes design philosophy is so different and arcane to the average person it is extremely difficult to grok by players of other TTRPGs and virtually impossible to grok by Video RPG gamers.  Even here we constantly see players, even some veterans, asking how to build something and they start off by naming a listed "power" that sounds close as the base.  Instead of explaining in plain language (no Hero build speak) what they want to achieve. 
 
Yes, in the end every player will want to make completely custom PC's.
But before they can do that they need to have some idea of just what a STR of X means in the context of the setting they are playing.  Of just what 6d6 damage means in the context of the setting they are playing.
 
And that context changes GM to GM.  If we set the standards as a beginning game for 400 point Heroes and I built a campaign/setting and you built a campaign/setting for the same.  I might have high powered version where 8d6 is average for damage, while you might go a path where 6d6 is average.  Or 10d6.  The point is that "acceptable" and "average" in the Hero System are ever sliding goalposts. 
 
You can't actually learn a game if the parameters keep changing. 
 
Hero needs a fixed reference basic setting.
It should have a intro mini-campaign using pre-generated PC's so that the new player and GM can gain an initial understanding of the game while standing on firm ground, before they get kicked into the quicksand.
 
Just from the beginning the rule book requires the new player to make decisions they have no understanding of.
 
Normals
Standard Skilled Competent Herioc
Standard Powerful Very Powerful Superheroic
Low-Powered Standard High-Powered Very High-Powered Cosmically Powerful Yes, they all have point values, but what do those values actually mean?  In the gut?  In actual play?
 
If the campaign makes a decision and picks one.  And then builds everything to that decision including pre-generated Heroes, the new players and GM will have a defined starting point to learn the system.   And once they complete to intro campaign they now have a reference point for later use when they go their own way.  
 
Don't get me wrong, the books do a great job in trying to explain things, but like most it doesn't sink in until you actually do it.  
 
I teach technicians and engineers about on-aircraft systems all the time, both upgrades to existing systems and newly deployed systems.  We build in "classroom" time where we go over things in detail.  But for the vast majority of people the lights really don't come on completely until we go to an aircraft and fire up the system and they see things real time.  Suddenly it becomes easy. 
 
The Hero System (any edition) is an open ended one that sits on a fluid foundation.  Unfortunately you can't play open ended on fluid. 
Decisions have to add limits and set a solid foundation. 
 
 

I on the other hand believe that one of the key reasons Hero is dying on the vine is NOT having pre-built PC's designed to compliment a pre-built adventure.
The end design is for everyone to understand the game enough to play it.
 
Heroes actual play rules are simple (to hit, to succeed, to damage, to change, etc.)
 
Heroes point build system is simple (it's just basic math)
 
Heroes design philosophy is so different and arcane to the average person it is extremely difficult to grok by players of other TTRPGs and virtually impossible to grok by Video RPG gamers.  Even here we constantly see players, even some veterans, asking how to build something and they start off by naming a listed "power" that sounds close as the base.  Instead of explaining in plain language (no Hero build speak) what they want to achieve. 
 
Yes, in the end every player will want to make completely custom PC's.
But before they can do that they need to have some idea of just what a STR of X means in the context of the setting they are playing.  Of just what 6d6 damage means in the context of the setting they are playing.
 
And that context changes GM to GM.  If we set the standards as a beginning game for 400 point Heroes and I built a campaign/setting and you built a campaign/setting for the same.  I might have high powered version where 8d6 is average for damage, while you might go a path where 6d6 is average.  Or 10d6.  The point is that "acceptable" and "average" in the Hero System are ever sliding goalposts. 
 
You can't actually learn a game if the parameters keep changing. 
 
Hero needs a fixed reference basic setting.
It should have a intro mini-campaign using pre-generated PC's so that the new player and GM can gain an initial understanding of the game while standing on firm ground, before they get kicked into the quicksand.
 
Just from the beginning the rule book requires the new player to make decisions they have no understanding of.
 
Normals
Standard Skilled Competent Herioc
Standard Powerful Very Powerful Superheroic
Low-Powered Standard High-Powered Very High-Powered Cosmically Powerful Yes, they all have point values, but what do those values actually mean?  In the gut?  In actual play?
 
If the campaign makes a decision and picks one.  And then builds everything to that decision including pre-generated Heroes, the new players and GM will have a defined starting point to learn the system.   And once they complete to intro campaign they now have a reference point for later use when they go their own way.  
 
Don't get me wrong, the books do a great job in trying to explain things, but like most it doesn't sink in until you actually do it.  
 
I teach technicians and engineers about on-aircraft systems all the time, both upgrades to existing systems and newly deployed systems.  We build in "classroom" time where we go over things in detail.  But for the vast majority of people the lights really don't come on completely until we go to an aircraft and fire up the system and they see things real time.  Suddenly it becomes easy. 
 
The Hero System (any edition) is an open ended one that sits on a fluid foundation.  Unfortunately you can't play open ended on fluid. 
Decisions have to add limits and set a solid foundation. 
 
 

I on the other hand believe that one of the key reasons Hero is dying on the vine is NOT having pre-built PC's designed to compliment a pre-built adventure.
The end design is for everyone to understand the game enough to play it.
 
Heroes actual play rules are simple (to hit, to succeed, to damage, to change, etc.)
 
Heroes point build system is simple (it's just basic math)
 
Heroes design philosophy is so different and arcane to the average person it is extremely difficult to grok by players of other TTRPGs and virtually impossible to grok by Video RPG gamers.  Even here we constantly see players, even some veterans, asking how to build something and they start off by naming a listed "power" that sounds close as the base.  Instead of explaining in plain language (no Hero build speak) what they want to achieve. 
 
Yes, in the end every player will want to make completely custom PC's.
But before they can do that they need to have some idea of just what a STR of X means in the context of the setting they are playing.  Of just what 6d6 damage means in the context of the setting they are playing.
 
And that context changes GM to GM.  If we set the standards as a beginning game for 400 point Heroes and I built a campaign/setting and you built a campaign/setting for the same.  I might have high powered version where 8d6 is average for damage, while you might go a path where 6d6 is average.  Or 10d6.  The point is that "acceptable" and "average" in the Hero System are ever sliding goalposts. 
 
You can't actually learn a game if the parameters keep changing. 
 
Hero needs a fixed reference basic setting.
It should have a intro mini-campaign using pre-generated PC's so that the new player and GM can gain an initial understanding of the game while standing on firm ground, before they get kicked into the quicksand.
 
Just from the beginning the rule book requires the new player to make decisions they have no understanding of.
 
Normals
Standard Skilled Competent Herioc
Standard Powerful Very Powerful Superheroic
Low-Powered Standard High-Powered Very High-Powered Cosmically Powerful Yes, they all have point values, but what do those values actually mean?  In the gut?  In actual play?
 
If the campaign makes a decision and picks one.  And then builds everything to that decision including pre-generated Heroes, the new players and GM will have a defined starting point to learn the system.   And once they complete to intro campaign they now have a reference point for later use when they go their own way.  
 
Don't get me wrong, the books do a great job in trying to explain things, but like most it doesn't sink in until you actually do it.  
 
I teach technicians and engineers about on-aircraft systems all the time, both upgrades to existing systems and newly deployed systems.  We build in "classroom" time where we go over things in detail.  But for the vast majority of people the lights really don't come on completely until we go to an aircraft and fire up the system and they see things real time.  Suddenly it becomes easy. 
 
The Hero System (any edition) is an open ended one that sits on a fluid foundation.  Unfortunately you can't play open ended on fluid. 
Decisions have to add limits and set a solid foundation. 
 
 

I have not worked it all the way through yet but the followup idea I have for Champions Begins is "baby's first campaign" with a step by step "how to build a character using Champions Complete", then their first adventure with the new characters that they personally built, a followup session where they tweak their characters slightly after a test drive around the block (Hulk turned gray to green, Beast went from an idiot to a poetry-spouting intellectual, etc), then spend some xps, then a few related adventures following an overarching plot between several apparently unrelated adventures and end with a triumph and a parade through the city or something.   The mayor gives them the old McCallister Building to use as a base, maybe. 
 
Something roughly 100 pages but instead of a "how to walk around in the game and punch things" tutorial a basic step into what its like to play a Champions campaign.

Costner is kind of hit and miss but mostly he's hit and he can be quite good.  He was great in Highwaymen, for example.  I loved him in Tin Cup.  He was a big miss in Postman and Waterworld, sadly, because they were kind of dream projects he had that just failed so bad he'll never get a shot like that again.  I loved him in Silverado, obviously; he seems born to play westerns.
 
The thing is, he's kind of an Eastwood protege in that like Eastwood he buys scripts he loves then makes them when he can get money together.  He's not as talented as Eastwood (and obviously not as experienced) but he is one of the few directors out there doing any sort of original content coming from Hollywood and for that he gets respect from me even when its a fail.

No, can't agree at all. The latest Dune. Or even Lynch's flawed adaptation. These were made with respect for the source material. Likewise Blade Runner.
I have a great deal of respect for Verhoeven - Robocop was a superbly well designed and crafted film. But I can't watch Starship Troopers, because what he did was take Heinlein's  ideas and concepts and take a big dump on them, then post the result to the screen.
 

Yeah, trains I also have coming out of my... caboose.

OK, I have failed. 
 
I have looked everywhere I can think of and can only find trains.
 

Nothing to apologize for. 
Those are issues with Talents.
I personally don't find them insurmountable, but then I am not trying to put out a product to the great wilds of RPG'dom
It is much easier when you are only pleasing your personal game.

No; you are not misremembering.   The problem comes with "what powers and modifiers do I use to do this?"
 
Like I alluded to above: 
 
is this Precognition?  Or is it Luck?  IE, is he lucky enough to have just happened to have bought enough ammo?
 
Then there's the problem of simulating this in a money-for-powers game: how do you know he bought enough ammo?  Do you just deduct a percentage of all his income and state "this is what you used for ammo?"  What do you do when that really wasn't enough after all?  Do you (as I would suggest) make him pay for ammo retroactively, on the assumption that he actually did just happen to have bought at least that amount every time?  And what do you do when when he's out of money?  Un-buy a few things, or do an "abort income to cash on hand" kind of thing?
 
And how do you represent that in the build?  _Do_ you represent that, or do you declare a fiat?
 
Using Luck, you come up with one cost; using Precog, you get another.  Which is "best?"  Or, less judgmentally, which is most accurate?  When do you stop applying modifiers, for that matter?
 
Sure: when you get it "exactly right" is the ideal answer, but I think most of us are going to have a "this is close enough" point, and that's going to vary, too.
 
 
I apologize; I didn't say any of that to be disagreeable; it was just something that I thought we should keep in mind with regard to pricing a Talent.
 
 

I agree with the point but not the statement.  We do not need an agreed upon anything. 
The actual person that decides to actually write something needs to pick a power level/standard and write to it.
One of Hero's biggest issues, if not the biggest, is that it doesn't define anything.  It vomits an infinite variable range at new players and say "have fun".  New players then look at it get crossed eyes and move to a different game. 
M&M include the same broad possible ranges that Hero does. 
 
But they pick a standard power level for everyone to use and then mention you can deviate.
They follow up by building everything scaled to the default level. 
 
Hero actually does that to a degree also.  But they never actually say it or define it. 
 
 
 
I think you are on to something, but I don't think it has to be Champions Complete and the Campaign Book. 
We are in the ebook age.  Write the Campaign using just names and titles. 
 
Have an appendix that has all the character sheets for the major NPCs, minor ones, creatures, equipment etc.  
 
Put each Major or significant NPC on their own page.  None of this multiple characters/minions/creatures on the same page.  None of the hated half on the page and running over to another. 
 
If it is Fantasy Hero and your Goblins always appear in groups of 5 to 10, then their entry in the appendix will be a minion control sheet with stat blocks and a BDY/STN/END list for 10. 
 
The GM can flip to the page and see EVERYTHING they need on ONE page. 
 
You can have two appendices split into two parts.  The first for play with just ability names and must have information.  The second for full detailed build sheets.
 
Appendix A for 6th Ed/CC
Appendix B for 5thR
 
The campaign will play out regardless of the version of appendix used and addressing both will make the campaign appeal regardless of preferred edition.