Superhero Bases

[Sketchpad]

Howdy Herodom!

I was working on a few things and got to thinking about bases. We see so many heroes and villains statted up, but rarely do we see the bases they use. Has anyone worked on things like the Batcave? The Fortress of Solitude? A Helicarrier? Xavier's School for the Gifted? 

[HeroGM]

I'll see what I can find. Some of the BIGGEST issues is details. Then what version are you talking about?

 

Example -- JLA...cave base? Satellite? Watchtower from Space? Watchtower on the Moon, Hall of Justice?...

[Sketchpad]

2 minutes ago, HeroGM said:

I'll see what I can find. Some of the BIGGEST issues is details. Then what version are you talking about?

 

Example -- JLA...cave base? Satellite? Watchtower from Space? Watchtower on the Moon, Hall of Justice?...

 

I'm open to see anything. One of the biggest issues I've always found when it comes to Hero bases is the Size stat. I really wish there were better examples of each rank in CC or TUB. I mean, sure, we start at the size of the Empire State Building. But what about a penthouse apartment? Or an underground cave?  

[Christopher R Taylor]

Cool idea though   The OHOTMU and Who's Who both had schematics of hero bases, and I bet you can find some online too.  Maybe an idea for the next Book of Templates: super vehicles, bases, and AI's.  Jarvis, the Batmobile, Avengers mansion, etc.

[unclevlad]

For sizes, the complexity is it's done in a raw total volume sense.  What I do is take the volume and assume 3 meters as a standard height.  That gives me the floor space...volume/3.  So a Size 0 has 40 sq m.  Next...since we see floor space in square feet...1 square meter is about 10 square feet.  Close enough and simple.  That floor space can be split however you like.

 

So:  size (floor space estimate in square feet), some idea of scale

0 (400) -- tiny apartment...as in, probably doesn't have a real kitchen.  

1 (1200) -- good size 2 or 3 bedroom apartment, maybe a smaller condo

2 (1700) -- tract 2 or 3 bedroom house (my house is this size).  Deluxe apartment.

3 (3300) -- good sized 2 bedroom house, 3-4 bedrooms, multiple other rooms.  Probably a good baseline penthouse apartment.

4 (6600) -- getting into mansion range.  Also fairly large retail space.

 

Here's a reference for the next few:

https://ilsr.org/how-big-are-bigbox-stores/

5 (13000+)

6 (25000+)

7 (50000+) note:  the Willis (used to be Sears) Tower in Chicago is 108 floors, listed at 4.5 million square feet.  So each floor is roughly 40,000 square feet...so around this size.

 

So a Walmart Super Center is size 9;  The overall Willis Tower is about a 22.

 

When I think of a cave, like the Batcave...most of it is empty air.  How high does the equipment have to go, in the middle area?  Stuff built into the walls?  That's part of the overall floor space.  Use normal heights.  That 6 meter tall fusion reactor?  You have to count that in the height.  Yeah, it means a lot of the "base" would be wasted, but it's not like size costs you anything significant.

 

Oh, and just for grins...the Death Star.  90 mile diameter...45 mile radius, so, 70 km.  Ergo, volume of 343,000 BILLION cubic meters.  1 million m^3 is size 13;  this would be size 41.  Of course, that doesn't mean you can actually *build* it, but that's a separate issue....

 

[Asperion]

For the most part when it comes to bases,  I tend to hand wave it.  Regardless of size and ability,  I will say to the players prove to me why you have said ability at your income level, spending requirements, size,  and other requirements. By size I am not talking physical base size although that's a consideration, I mean the economic size of support. When everything is done and I (GM) says they have it, then we determine how to work it into the actual base itself. 

[Christopher R Taylor]

Size is nearly meaningless, which is why its so cheap.  It should cost SOMETHING to have a base the size of the Pentagon, but not much since its just space.

[Tech]

Using Champions 2, I've written up statistics for several of our superteam bases. All of them have a minus to PER roll to recognize them naturally, among other things. I use the Mastermind Option for the team, with each hero giving points towards the 50 pts, then the team leader's total cost is used for how many points the base has. Trust me, 300 points for a base sounds like alot, but it can go so fast.

[Sketchpad]

13 hours ago, unclevlad said:

For sizes, the complexity is it's done in a raw total volume sense.  What I do is take the volume and assume 3 meters as a standard height.  That gives me the floor space...volume/3.  So a Size 0 has 40 sq m.  Next...since we see floor space in square feet...1 square meter is about 10 square feet.  Close enough and simple.  That floor space can be split however you like.

 

So:  size (floor space estimate in square feet), some idea of scale

0 (400) -- tiny apartment...as in, probably doesn't have a real kitchen.  

1 (1200) -- good size 2 or 3 bedroom apartment, maybe a smaller condo

2 (1700) -- tract 2 or 3 bedroom house (my house is this size).  Deluxe apartment.

3 (3300) -- good sized 2 bedroom house, 3-4 bedrooms, multiple other rooms.  Probably a good baseline penthouse apartment.

4 (6600) -- getting into mansion range.  Also fairly large retail space.

 

Here's a reference for the next few:

https://ilsr.org/how-big-are-bigbox-stores/

5 (13000+)

6 (25000+)

7 (50000+) note:  the Willis (used to be Sears) Tower in Chicago is 108 floors, listed at 4.5 million square feet.  So each floor is roughly 40,000 square feet...so around this size.

 

Super useful! Thanks, @unclevlad!

 

1 hour ago, Tech said:

I use the Mastermind Option for the team, with each hero giving points towards the 50 pts, then the team leader's total cost is used for how many points the base has. Trust me, 300 points for a base sounds like alot, but it can go so fast.

 

Man, I miss the Mastermind Option. 

[steriaca]

Well, you can simulate the Mastermind Option by using a Variable Power Pool with the limitation Only For Followers And Bases (pick a reasonable number...I suggest -1). Your the GM. You can give the villain the approval for it.

[archer]

I've had a couple of characters over the years who've built their own very minimal lairs.

 

Usually it's something with the area of a small house but divided into several different physical locations so if one gets burned then he doesn't lose the secrecy of everything or lose all his stuff. (Yeah, I know you can't lose it permanently if you paid points for it but it becomes unavailable for immediate use.)

 

Fold down bed, microwave, fridge, chair, TV, computer/laptops, bookshelf, closet, and bathroom covers the conveniences. Depending on the character, some sort of lab usually like electronics or computer because I tend to play high tech characters more than mystics.

 

It gives him a place to bring a captive, an ally, or someone he's protecting then catch his breath.

 

It's more that I like the idea of it than it's strictly useful. A good GM ought to take care of the pacing of the adventure and allow reasonable downtime. But I like having the control of having my own place if I want to use it.

 

If I'm doing "the whole team meets here on a regular basis", I expect the whole team to kick in points to pay for the thing and have something more elaborate than a series of almost claustrophobic boltholes. 

 

Quote

So:  size (floor space estimate in square feet), some idea of scale

0 (400) -- tiny apartment...as in, probably doesn't have a real kitchen.  

1 (1200) -- good size 2 or 3 bedroom apartment, maybe a smaller condo

2 (1700) -- tract 2 or 3 bedroom house (my house is this size).  Deluxe apartment.

 

For example, since I'm not doing either a real kitchen or a real bedroom, I could take that 1700 and divide it into five places not much smaller than a tiny apartment. 

 

I'm not living at any of the places full time and just using it on occasion in my Secret ID so the small size shouldn't drive me batty.  

 

Sorry, I don't have any of them written up anymore. What I had were mostly just proof-of-concept sketches anyway. I don't remember any of them being invaded and becoming the scene of a big fight or anything.

[Nekkidcarpenter]

To me the basic concept of Hero should be applied to a base; what does it do?  

 

It provides bonuses to some pc's for some rolls that are requested by the gm.  GM-"It sure would be nice if you had your own lab to analyze that clue"  PC-"I do have my own lab, I've been making my webbing there for years"  GM-"But wouldn't it be nice to spend some of your experience on it?  I mean, what else would you do, buy skill levels?"

 

It provides some justification for pc's to buy new powers that they didn't need to create their character.  The Iron Man expy didn't need a 'base' to spend the first 300 points on their suit, why do they need one to slightly modify it?

 

It provides adventure hooks for the gm to hang things on.  Subterranean monsters, ghosts, alien attacks, defense systems going haywire, robot butler's gaining sentience, etc.

 

It sucks up pc xp when the gm feels he's lost control of the pc's point spending.  This is actually the only thing it does.

 

In my opinion, a 'base' is just a tax on pc's.  If the campaign justifies it and they want one, let them have it.  If they feel like designing a whole bunch of rooms or whatever, fine.  If having a map makes running encounters there easier, make the pc's make the map.  

 

[steriaca]

You don't, as a superhero, need a base. If all you do in it is to eat, sleep, shit, and watch television between work and patrolling, and is only useful for the above things plus normal maintenance on costume and equipment, then it is waisted points. It's not like the GM is going to slap a homeless sticker on the character if they don't spend points on a base. Also, the character concept might actually be that they are homeless.

[Sketchpad]

On 2/2/2022 at 7:41 PM, steriaca said:

Well, you can simulate the Mastermind Option by using a Variable Power Pool with the limitation Only For Followers And Bases (pick a reasonable number...I suggest -1). Your the GM. You can give the villain the approval for it.

 

Yeah, but it's not the same. 

 

8 hours ago, steriaca said:

You don't, as a superhero, need a base. If all you do in it is to eat, sleep, shit, and watch television between work and patrolling, and is only useful for the above things plus normal maintenance on costume and equipment, then it is waisted points. It's not like the GM is going to slap a homeless sticker on the character if they don't spend points on a base. Also, the character concept might actually be that they are homeless.

 

I like bases and think they have a place in games. 

[steriaca]

14 minutes ago, Sketchpad said:

 

I like bases and think they have a place in games. 

True. But you shouldn't be forced to pay points on it if you don't have to do so. Especially when it is just the equivalent of zero point base (the aforementioned eating and sleeping place).

 

You probably are the GM which forces players to take Absolute Time Sense on a focus to carry a wristwatch around.

[Sketchpad]

2 hours ago, steriaca said:

True. But you shouldn't be forced to pay points on it if you don't have to do so. Especially when it is just the equivalent of zero point base (the aforementioned eating and sleeping place).

 

You probably are the GM which forces players to take Absolute Time Sense on a focus to carry a wristwatch around.

 

Wow. Accusatory much, Steriaca? Sorry you don't like bases. Maybe you should find a different thread to be grumpy on? 

 

Just as an aside, which part of the examples I cited (see below) were about an apartment or just a living space? None? I thought so too. 

 

On 2/1/2022 at 10:29 PM, Sketchpad said:

Has anyone worked on things like the Batcave? The Fortress of Solitude? A Helicarrier? Xavier's School for the Gifted? 

[Christopher R Taylor]

Its probably worth looking at making bases matter more in a campaign or in the rules at least.  They definitely add a small bonus to your skills and give you a place to park the Supermobile, but yeah... should be worth more for the cost

[steriaca]

9 hours ago, Sketchpad said:

 

Wow. Accusatory much, Steriaca? Sorry you don't like bases. Maybe you should find a different thread to be grumpy on? 

 

Sorry if I gave the impression that I don't like bases. What I hate is being railroaded into buying one if it doesn't fit my character concept. I'll gladly pay points for a base if it is my choice to do so as opposed to being GM demand.

[Scott Ruggels]

23 hours ago, steriaca said:

You don't, as a superhero, need a base. If all you do in it is to eat, sleep, shit, and watch television between work and patrolling, and is only useful for the above things plus normal maintenance on costume and equipment, then it is waisted points. It's not like the GM is going to slap a homeless sticker on the character if they don't spend points on a base. Also, the character concept might actually be that they are homeless.

Depends on the campaign.  If you are part of a team, you pay your share of the cost of the base.  This is for an Avengers or X-Men style team.  If it’s street level, like the Defenders, everyone has their crappy, Hells Kitchen apartment, and beats answers out of people rather than using a lab, or a team vehicle.  More Dark Champions than regular Champions IMO.  

[steriaca]

26 minutes ago, Scott Ruggels said:

Depends on the campaign.  If you are part of a team, you pay your share of the cost of the base.  This is for an Avengers or X-Men style team.  If it’s street level, like the Defenders, everyone has their crappy, Hells Kitchen apartment, and beats answers out of people rather than using a lab, or a team vehicle.  More Dark Champions than regular Champions IMO.  

Also depends on if you actually have other people other than just yourself and the GM. Because of stuff it might be a very solo game.

 

At least the solo guy is lucky to have a GM. Many of us have too much time filled working and not enough time gaming. 

[Christopher R Taylor]

Yeah bases are pretty cheap and if every member of a superteam pitches 5 points in, you can get a pretty big and ornate one.

 

So... how could we make bases more significant to justify the cost?  In superhero comics, what does the base do, other than make a more identifiable brand for the character (the bat cave, for example) and a place for the characters to hang out and chat before going to the adventure?  How do they matter?

 

They are a place to keep vehicles out of the public eye. 

They give a place for secret identities to be safe. 

They provide labs. 

They also are often used to hold captured bad guys, monsters, or equipment. 

Usually there's some kind of trophy room with the huge coin and the dinosaur. 

They sometimes give a spot for authorities or reporters to meet with the heroes who obviously don't have a beeper or any other way to contact them.

They often have some kind of medical facility for supers to be worked on without compromising their identity and dealing with their particular physiology.

They offer a location for monitoring news and events, so someone is at the Justice League monitor watching news and reports for something the league should deal with.

 

I bet there are other things, but this gives the main list, as I recall in the past.  As I haven't read a mainstream comic since before Obama was president I am not sure what people are doing with bases in comics these days.

[assault]

Bases are also a known and usually mapped location for adventures. This can apply even if they are notionally secret.

 

Of course this is an argument for making them free.

 

[Echo3Niner]

I've been playing various RPGs so long, I haven't stat'd out a base / lair in forever.

 

PCs want a base, that affects the game?  I'd probably have them stat that out, to some extent; at least the defenses and general level of stuff, so I know they're not looking to "pull a rabbit out of a hat" at any moment, and rely on something I'm not allowing in my game (mainly just to avoid in-game arguments).

 

But for the bad guy's base?  It's all about the story - it does whatever / whenever I need it to, to make a better, more entertaining game.  It is a plot-device.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Yeah I don't make bad guys pay for bases or followers unless its an official write up in a game product.  They just get what they get, it doesn't matter.  All that stuff does is bloat their cost total.

 

And having the super base as a focus for villain attacks sounds like a good complication for the base. In my humble opinion, bases, vehicles, and followers should be cheaper by their complication totals.  I know this can be abused, but heck almost anything can.

 

My favorite "villain attacks the base" story in comics is Fantastic Four 265 when the Trapster attacks the FF tower and... gets trashed by the base's defenses and AI.

[Spence]

When I was a part of a regular Champions game many moons ago, all the PC's were part of a super-team with the completely original name of The Champions 

 

Each player had a "stable" of PC's (only able to play one in a session) and we rotated GM's.  We had a pretty sweet headquarters with each PC having their own quarters/lab/what have you and the PC's kicking in points.   More than one session took place in the base and by the time I left the game the base map had become impressive. 

 

Wish it had happened in the personal computer age and it had been possible to get a copy