ghost-angel

This seems to come up a lot, and so does my stock response.  Apologies to those who are bored seeing it again.  I got bored typing it again, so this time I saved it for future cut & paste.

 
To the costing of DEX, my initial feeling was that DEX should be 1 point, just like INT and PRE.  However, that view evolved.  My conclusion was that DEX is not overpriced.  We're starting from the pre-6e baseline that PRE and INT both cost 1 point, and since we removed enough from DEX to make it equivalent, DEX should cost 1 point.

 
I think DEX actually is worth 2 points.  Half of that goes to "+ to all DEX rolls", so it should cost 5 points for +1 to all DEX rolls (not +1 to any 1 DEX roll at a time - +1 to each and every roll based on DEX), and we should have more limited versions down to +1 for only one application of a DEX roll (not the current +2 points for +1 to a skill). 


 
Gradations between the two would reduce the scope of rolls that can be modified, and only allow one to be modified at a time.  This would replace the current skill levels model.


 
The other half of the price of DEX goes to Lightning Reflexes, with the ability to buy that separately, again starting at 5 points = +5 “initiative” for all abilities and limited for more restricted applications.

 

The issue is that PRE and INT are underpriced.  They should also be 2 points, just like DEX.


 
INT provide INT rolls (price these like DEX rolls) and PER rolls (also to be priced like DEX rolls), so 5 points for +1 to all rolls for either one and limit down.


 
PRE provides PRE rolls and PRE attacks.   Same model for PRE attacks, +1d6 PRE attacks costs 5 points, limit down for restrictive application.  Striking Appearance is +5 PRE, limited for how frequently it applies.  Other abilities might enhance only PRE attacks, or only PRE rolls.


 
Where id PRE defense go?  In my vision, PRE defense becomes exclusive to EGO, the price of which stays 1 point.  Half of EGO is EGO rolls (there are far fewer, as it does not drive skills) and the other half is PRE defense (and defense is cheaper than attack).

 

The characteristic price aligns with the cost of buying the components.

Hero's real core mechanic, the foundation on which all the other ideas are built is divorcing Mechanics and Special Effect.
 
Which is why it's a toolkit to make a game, not a ready-play game. Even systems like Fate can't completely divorce these two. Fate does do an excellent job by being almost entirely narrative in nature, but it becomes extremely abstract when it does that. Hero leans more on the crunch.
 
If you want to reduce Hero to the foundations it's asking two questions: What happens, How Does It Look.
Remove Special Effects and most characters are Attack; Move; Defend; Skill Set. But Heroes granularity is the elegant (if mathematical) way it allows you to define those elements.
 
Which you can get in any system, even abstract one's like Fate, where things like "how far do I move?" are answered as "Plot Distance" unless you have an Aspect or Stunt that specifically defines you moving "Extra Plot Distance"; And if you're group isn't very narrative in nature, well, Hero with the nuts & bolts & numbers is the best at defining the idea that What Happens & How It Looks are two radically different things.
 
How many actual rules can you remove from Hero before you stop being Hero? A lot probably, as long as you don't remove so much the core concept of Mechanics & Special Effect are Two Different Things That Work Together.

Just fyi, the examples I gave ARE from actual play, including the duffle bag of guns on the roof of the elevator. I think the biggest issue we had with it was players struggling with determining "What are prep/montage actions vs. what are actual play actions"  The ninja player's "prep" actions were "I get in there and find the hostage and get out"... which was like the whole adventure... heh. So we had to discuss what was appropriate as "setup actions" vs. "actual play, the plan contacts the enemy" because old school gamers can be very unused to have "director stance" actions... which in some ways these are... but you can't take it too far. 

If none of the strengths of hero are a draw; well, you know what - I can't help you.
 
D&D is a box, it's not even a particularly creative box. You choose from cut outs, you play cut outs, and you fight cut outs. Heck, some editions of D&D barely encourage roleplaying in any sense, non-combat aspects had to be (badly) stapled into AD&D2E. D&D4E (still my favorite edition, really) is basically a board game. It comes right out and even tells you "you need these elements in a party. deviating will make the game not work."
 
Hero's strength is flexibility, versatility, and yep, does require some up front work to get going. You have to know what flavor of game you want to play, without that it's just a book full of words.
If you want a grab & go system, there's bunches out there.

Oh this whole thing is good, this is fantastic. Please let me know if you how this all works in play.
 
Yeah - the one thing I really like about Blades is there are no Planning Sessions. There is only "what info do you want?" - "How do you want to start out?" - "Let's see where everyone is and how far into the plan we are..." - and then Game On.

I actually included something similar (after reading Blades in the Dark)... calling it "The Plan" in my game. I already have a bennie system with "Luck Chits" and I've been experimenting with a relatively simple process.
 
1. When a scenario calls for it, players come up with a general "plan of attack"... like "We want the infiltrate the club in disguise, after having hacked the security cameras, and gotten a decent floorplan. The goal is to narrow down where the hostage might be kept, and so our assault is fast and quick, with a planned getaway."

That's it... no long involved arguing about how many grenades you are packing, or what language your hacking program is written in, or whatever... quick, general, covers the basic idea.
 
2. Each player/PC gets to role a "Prep" roll based on their skill/expertise/contacts, to contribute to  "The Plan". (i.e. the hacker rolls to say "I'm gaining access to the security network through cables running through tunnels under the club." and the faceman says "I'm organizing our local support to have watchers on the street and around the building and a getaway driver." and the ninja says, "I'm going to infiltrate and get in position way ahead of time, before things go down."   whatever...)  Based on how well they roll, they get contribute plusses or minuses to "The Plan" roll. for example... hacker rolls well, that says he is in, with full view of all cameras, give a +2 to "The Plan" roll... but ninja rolled badly, he was able to get inside, but unable to get far due to unexpected employees showing up and can't break cover"... -1 to The Plan roll.   The rolls help narrate the "set up montage"
 
3. Then, based on the total plusses or minuses... a player with Tactics or Teamwork... rolls. Based on how well they roll... the players gain Luck Chits for the group as a whole, that can be utilzed when necessary to say "I planned for this!" when they run into some obstacle in the actual op. For example, the PCs could only infiltrate with light weapons... but once inside, realized they were likely heavily out gunned. The ninja spent a chit saying, "I planned for this, and on my way in, I left a duffle bag of guns on the roof of the elevator off the kitchen." The PCs are then able to pick up a couple assault rifles and a shotgun before heading for the penthouse.

A few more tweaks (like I set a number based on how difficult the target it... from Easy to Hyper Secure (infiltrating a night club owned by gangsters is easier than infiltrating an NSA black site)... but generally that's it.

Players/PCs contribute to "The Plan"... a single roll is then made to determine how effectively the plan was up to the point of "Go" when the actual, moment to moment play begins... and a good roll provides "I planned for that..." bennies... or not if the plan wasn't so good.

Have just recently begun trying it, but it works alright and I'm committed to using basic HERO skills and contacts, etc.... just using them in a different light.

I've grown  particularly fond of the Flashback system from Blades In The Dark; we're about to start a new campaign and the GM plans on using Equipment Resource Points as both a loadout and flashback system. As long as you have unallocated resource points you can say "I brought that with us.." or "I'll spend some point, we've prepared for this..." - it should work pretty well I think. We'll see how it goes.

All too often I've seen this problem described as "realistic" or "it would never happen like that". It's almost always a failure to understand genre tropes or concepts.
And this may be perpetrated by the idea, more as time goes on I feel, that 'tropes' are a four letter word, things to be avoided, and generally bad story telling. I blame the tv-tropes website a lot for this. Everyone is trying to "subvert the tropes" when really, most of the best stories in a genre lean-into the tropes.

All too often I've seen this problem described as "realistic" or "it would never happen like that". It's almost always a failure to understand genre tropes or concepts.
And this may be perpetrated by the idea, more as time goes on I feel, that 'tropes' are a four letter word, things to be avoided, and generally bad story telling. I blame the tv-tropes website a lot for this. Everyone is trying to "subvert the tropes" when really, most of the best stories in a genre lean-into the tropes.

I've grown  particularly fond of the Flashback system from Blades In The Dark; we're about to start a new campaign and the GM plans on using Equipment Resource Points as both a loadout and flashback system. As long as you have unallocated resource points you can say "I brought that with us.." or "I'll spend some point, we've prepared for this..." - it should work pretty well I think. We'll see how it goes.

If none of the strengths of hero are a draw; well, you know what - I can't help you.
 
D&D is a box, it's not even a particularly creative box. You choose from cut outs, you play cut outs, and you fight cut outs. Heck, some editions of D&D barely encourage roleplaying in any sense, non-combat aspects had to be (badly) stapled into AD&D2E. D&D4E (still my favorite edition, really) is basically a board game. It comes right out and even tells you "you need these elements in a party. deviating will make the game not work."
 
Hero's strength is flexibility, versatility, and yep, does require some up front work to get going. You have to know what flavor of game you want to play, without that it's just a book full of words.
If you want a grab & go system, there's bunches out there.

If none of the strengths of hero are a draw; well, you know what - I can't help you.
 
D&D is a box, it's not even a particularly creative box. You choose from cut outs, you play cut outs, and you fight cut outs. Heck, some editions of D&D barely encourage roleplaying in any sense, non-combat aspects had to be (badly) stapled into AD&D2E. D&D4E (still my favorite edition, really) is basically a board game. It comes right out and even tells you "you need these elements in a party. deviating will make the game not work."
 
Hero's strength is flexibility, versatility, and yep, does require some up front work to get going. You have to know what flavor of game you want to play, without that it's just a book full of words.
If you want a grab & go system, there's bunches out there.

If none of the strengths of hero are a draw; well, you know what - I can't help you.
 
D&D is a box, it's not even a particularly creative box. You choose from cut outs, you play cut outs, and you fight cut outs. Heck, some editions of D&D barely encourage roleplaying in any sense, non-combat aspects had to be (badly) stapled into AD&D2E. D&D4E (still my favorite edition, really) is basically a board game. It comes right out and even tells you "you need these elements in a party. deviating will make the game not work."
 
Hero's strength is flexibility, versatility, and yep, does require some up front work to get going. You have to know what flavor of game you want to play, without that it's just a book full of words.
If you want a grab & go system, there's bunches out there.

This is the most pertinent point; Even with the generic D&D Books that have no specific campaign world attached are Build & Go for the most part (the GM needs to do enough work to populate an appropriate level adventure.)
 
One of the better books for Players from the 5E era was the Character Creation Guide, it's as close as Hero has come to a pure Players Guide.
 
A set of books that is GM Campaign and Players Creation Guide that strips the rules down to "this is what you need to play this specific campaign" & then have a note "for more detail on creating your own game or adding to the system get the Full Ruleset..." might be a way to go for Hero. Reduce the Needed Rules down enough for each campaign and it might be one book...

This is the most pertinent point; Even with the generic D&D Books that have no specific campaign world attached are Build & Go for the most part (the GM needs to do enough work to populate an appropriate level adventure.)
 
One of the better books for Players from the 5E era was the Character Creation Guide, it's as close as Hero has come to a pure Players Guide.
 
A set of books that is GM Campaign and Players Creation Guide that strips the rules down to "this is what you need to play this specific campaign" & then have a note "for more detail on creating your own game or adding to the system get the Full Ruleset..." might be a way to go for Hero. Reduce the Needed Rules down enough for each campaign and it might be one book...

I'll agree that if DEX is worth 2pt/+1 then INT, PRE, and STR are all also 2pts/+1.
 
STR does Damage (at 5pts/D6) and Lifting.
 
But as long as we insist that STR is 1/1 then all the others should fall in line with that level of utility, including DEX (especially if we're stating that Lightning Reflexes - i.e. going first is important, and I contend it's no more important that the lifting capacity of STR in the first place - which is to say, not so important as to inflate either cost).

If one were to want to make the case for What Do I Look Like (ugly, average, beautiful) in a game with an Effect... well, first you need to ask "Why is this on the Character Sheet? What is it doing?"
 
Point cost or not, if it's written down it should probably affect the system being played in some fashion.
 
In Hero Terms, well, it's traditionally just been a Presence Based Boost with the Special Effect "Looks", or just a throw away RP item. (hence the switch over to the more mechanically defined Striking Appearance, which I've occasionally struggled with reminding some that being Good Looking isn't just about sexual attraction and Striking Appearance comes into play with non-physically attracted situations; especially if the SFX are "intensely ugly" - Marv from Sin City frex /digression)
 
You could probably expand it to do other things, at which point I'd ask - Is Comliness really just a Special Effect of Doing Something Else Mechanically? (especially in Hero where SFX and Mechanics are separate concepts entirely, unlike most game systems.)
 
If not, why is How Good/Bad Looking Am I? on the character sheet, and I don't mean "are you paying points for it or not" aspect, because I fall fully with Hugh on this one - if it's not doing anything Mechanically (in any situation) it should not cost points, period.
 
If it's not SFX  then how are we using this information in game, as long as we're statting it out.
-Will buying Comliness cause penalties to others Perception Rolls (frex, Matrix, the girl in the red dress)
-Will it help with certain social interactions (the standard PRE based boots)
-Will it work in the other direction (PRE based penalties to Other Characters)
-Will it be used to determine how/when RolePlay moments start for certain scenes (frex, the Characters with COM16+ easily get into the Night Club, everyone else needs a Plan; but the street thugs feel more comfortable talking to the rough looking COM6 Character about the Plot Hook, and keep getting off topic with the COM14 character)
 
To really any answer any question on "I'd like to introduce this Component to my game" you really have to answer "What am I actually doing with it?" first and that will inform the decision much more effectively.

If one were to want to make the case for What Do I Look Like (ugly, average, beautiful) in a game with an Effect... well, first you need to ask "Why is this on the Character Sheet? What is it doing?"
 
Point cost or not, if it's written down it should probably affect the system being played in some fashion.
 
In Hero Terms, well, it's traditionally just been a Presence Based Boost with the Special Effect "Looks", or just a throw away RP item. (hence the switch over to the more mechanically defined Striking Appearance, which I've occasionally struggled with reminding some that being Good Looking isn't just about sexual attraction and Striking Appearance comes into play with non-physically attracted situations; especially if the SFX are "intensely ugly" - Marv from Sin City frex /digression)
 
You could probably expand it to do other things, at which point I'd ask - Is Comliness really just a Special Effect of Doing Something Else Mechanically? (especially in Hero where SFX and Mechanics are separate concepts entirely, unlike most game systems.)
 
If not, why is How Good/Bad Looking Am I? on the character sheet, and I don't mean "are you paying points for it or not" aspect, because I fall fully with Hugh on this one - if it's not doing anything Mechanically (in any situation) it should not cost points, period.
 
If it's not SFX  then how are we using this information in game, as long as we're statting it out.
-Will buying Comliness cause penalties to others Perception Rolls (frex, Matrix, the girl in the red dress)
-Will it help with certain social interactions (the standard PRE based boots)
-Will it work in the other direction (PRE based penalties to Other Characters)
-Will it be used to determine how/when RolePlay moments start for certain scenes (frex, the Characters with COM16+ easily get into the Night Club, everyone else needs a Plan; but the street thugs feel more comfortable talking to the rough looking COM6 Character about the Plot Hook, and keep getting off topic with the COM14 character)
 
To really any answer any question on "I'd like to introduce this Component to my game" you really have to answer "What am I actually doing with it?" first and that will inform the decision much more effectively.

The fact is if you removed the Endurance part from Charges it would require less words to explain, it would also remove words from Autofire. It would create less side explanations as everything would be normalized:
Charges limit how often a power can be used.
Reduced END removes Endurance cost.
 
The only reason you see an interaction between the two is because the system put one in at the very beginning. Once you remove all Endurance considerations from Charges every argument about pushing, reducing effect, altering costs, math on where it switches from Limitation to Advantage, go away completely. That's a fact.

Ablative.

I just saw Incredibles 2.
 
Start with the corny punny name.
 
Build the rest of the character around that.

If you have taken a recovery, please put it back.

I would simply not allow the limitation, if I was going to enforce the rule at all, of course. I'd be more likely to use Ghost Angels interpretation and say if a player declared they were holding for a recover I'd allow them to do that and nothing else.
 
If I did enforce the rule, I'd probably allow an advantage to offset it. Something like +1/4 for all DEX (characteristic or power, limited or not) to allow hold for recovery. The value might go up if it turned out to be extremely useful, but I doubt it.
 
- E
 
 

Yes, you can land from your own Leap.
 
This should be a common sense application of an ability/power/mechanic - there's no reason why using a basic game mechanic would be detrimental to a Character unless specifically noted as such.

I agree with JMoz, Physical Manifestation is a simpler, and generally better, option. It can be removed fro your possession for a short period, targeted directly, and called to you via 'teleport' at will.