eepjr24

Just to clarify, Choke is a standard maneuver, no need to pay for it (see 6e2, 84). Although there is an equivalent Martial component as well.
 
- E

So just to put the rules I am looking at out there (6e):
 
"To use Incantations, a character must be able to speak freely and clearly — if he’s gagged or has his mouth full, he can’t activate and/or use the power. It’s also impossible to use the power while in a silence field (see Darkness). If he takes damage or is adversely affected by any power that requires an Attack Roll or MCV Attack Roll while he’s Incanting, the power doesn’t turn on or immediately turns off."
 
That said, I think what you want is the Choke maneuver:
 
"Besides being Grabbed, the victim of a Choke takes the listed NND damage and cannot speak or shout."
 
That would effectively prevent incantations as well as delivering a nice 2d6 NND if you want to keep doing it and can manage the attack roll.
 
There are some other ambiguous wording in Grab specifically about doing extra damage with hit locations, but they do in fact recommend using the called shot penalties. I think Choke is simpler.
 
- E
 
Edit: Somehow the Palindromedary snuck in an extra signature.

Just to clarify, Choke is a standard maneuver, no need to pay for it (see 6e2, 84). Although there is an equivalent Martial component as well.
 
- E

Just to clarify, Choke is a standard maneuver, no need to pay for it (see 6e2, 84). Although there is an equivalent Martial component as well.
 
- E

This thought came to me during this thread: 
We were discussing incantations and how to stop them. I was trying to think outside the box of non-standard ways and I came up with Trigger. If I have say a rogue type who throws daggers and wants to be able to defend himself against spell casters, would a RKA (thrown dagger) with a trigger "seeing someone start incantations" go off before the spell was cast, even if the spell power was instant? I could not find anything referencing how long things like Gestures and Incantations take to execute besides:
 
(6e1, 382) "(If a character has two or more Instant powers that require Incantations, or Constant powers that only require Incantations to activate, he can activate them all in the same Phase.)"
 
That implies less than a half phase but it pretty vague.  If the caster is damaged, that would trigger:
 
"If he takes damage or is adversely affected by any power that requires an Attack Roll or MCV Attack Roll while he’s Incanting, the power doesn’t turn on or immediately turns off."
 
As always, thank you for your time and effort for the community.
 
- E

So just to put the rules I am looking at out there (6e):
 
"To use Incantations, a character must be able to speak freely and clearly — if he’s gagged or has his mouth full, he can’t activate and/or use the power. It’s also impossible to use the power while in a silence field (see Darkness). If he takes damage or is adversely affected by any power that requires an Attack Roll or MCV Attack Roll while he’s Incanting, the power doesn’t turn on or immediately turns off."
 
That said, I think what you want is the Choke maneuver:
 
"Besides being Grabbed, the victim of a Choke takes the listed NND damage and cannot speak or shout."
 
That would effectively prevent incantations as well as delivering a nice 2d6 NND if you want to keep doing it and can manage the attack roll.
 
There are some other ambiguous wording in Grab specifically about doing extra damage with hit locations, but they do in fact recommend using the called shot penalties. I think Choke is simpler.
 
- E
 
Edit: Somehow the Palindromedary snuck in an extra signature.

So just to put the rules I am looking at out there (6e):
 
"To use Incantations, a character must be able to speak freely and clearly — if he’s gagged or has his mouth full, he can’t activate and/or use the power. It’s also impossible to use the power while in a silence field (see Darkness). If he takes damage or is adversely affected by any power that requires an Attack Roll or MCV Attack Roll while he’s Incanting, the power doesn’t turn on or immediately turns off."
 
That said, I think what you want is the Choke maneuver:
 
"Besides being Grabbed, the victim of a Choke takes the listed NND damage and cannot speak or shout."
 
That would effectively prevent incantations as well as delivering a nice 2d6 NND if you want to keep doing it and can manage the attack roll.
 
There are some other ambiguous wording in Grab specifically about doing extra damage with hit locations, but they do in fact recommend using the called shot penalties. I think Choke is simpler.
 
- E
 
Edit: Somehow the Palindromedary snuck in an extra signature.

So just to put the rules I am looking at out there (6e):
 
"To use Incantations, a character must be able to speak freely and clearly — if he’s gagged or has his mouth full, he can’t activate and/or use the power. It’s also impossible to use the power while in a silence field (see Darkness). If he takes damage or is adversely affected by any power that requires an Attack Roll or MCV Attack Roll while he’s Incanting, the power doesn’t turn on or immediately turns off."
 
That said, I think what you want is the Choke maneuver:
 
"Besides being Grabbed, the victim of a Choke takes the listed NND damage and cannot speak or shout."
 
That would effectively prevent incantations as well as delivering a nice 2d6 NND if you want to keep doing it and can manage the attack roll.
 
There are some other ambiguous wording in Grab specifically about doing extra damage with hit locations, but they do in fact recommend using the called shot penalties. I think Choke is simpler.
 
- E
 
Edit: Somehow the Palindromedary snuck in an extra signature.

Good question!
 
To begin with, I think we need to consider whether this power is, in fact, best represented with Stretching. The definition of Stretching is, “A character with Stretching can stretch his body [emphasis mine][.]” While it’s true that there are forms of Stretching that don’t strictly involve the body (e.g., weapons that increase the character’s Reach, or a lasso that lets him Grab at a distance), those both fall clearly within the functions of Stretching as outlined in the first paragraph on 6E1 284. And they both involve a Focus.
 
So, while the rules don’t require that Stretching involve either the character’s body or a Focus, the fact is that’s what’s involved in the vast majority of cases in which a character buys Stretching. Since what you describe doesn’t fall within those parameters, I’m not sure Stretching is the best way to build this power.
 
Instead, I would probably build this as Telekinesis with the Limitation Physical Manifestation (which represents the fact that the power can be attacked, Grabbed, or what have you). Physical Manifestation has rules for the damage required to “break” the power, and so on.
 
If you prefer to stick with Stretching, then I think Physical Manifestation (6E1 387) is still your answer.
 
I hope that helps! If you still have questions, please PM me or post a follow-up.

No, when you have the wrong numbers then your numbers are wrong.  I don't give a caped donkey about liking things, I fully agree that DEX was underpriced before 6e and removing figured characteristics was the correct decision.  That doesn't change the fact that your table is full of Sewer-Man's extra-putrid leavings.  12 DEX 4 CV does not cost 36 points. 
 
This table describes the relationship between DEX, CV, and cost.  The DEX column is the DEX of the character.  The CV column is the CV of a 5e character with that DEX.  The 5e NFC column is the cost for a character in 5e to buy that much DEX (and thus CV) with No Figured Characteristics.  The 6e column is the cost for the given DEX and CV in 6e.  The 6e no DEX column is the cost for 10 DEX and the given CV in 6e.  The 5e _ 6e column shows the relationship between 5e NFC and 6e.  The 5e _ 6e no DEX column shows the relationship between 5e NFC and 6e no DEX. 
DEX CV 5e NFC 6e 6e no DEX 5e _ 6e 5e _ 6e no DEX 3 1 -14 -34 -20 > > 6 2 -8 -18 -10 > > 9 3 -2 -2 0 = < 10 3 0 0 0 = = 11 4 2 12 10 < < 12 4 4 14 10 < < 15 5 10 30 20 < < 18 6 16 46 30 < < 21 7 22 62 40 < < 24 8 28 78 50 < < 27 9 34 94 60 < < 30 10 40 110 70 < < 33 11 46 126 80 < < 36 12 52 142 90 < < 39 13 58 158 100 < < 42 14 64 174 110 < < 45 15 70 190 120 < < Conclusion: ANY CV above 3 costs more in 6e than in 5e.  Period space space carriage return line feed.  6e's DEX/CV changes do not give any hero a "cost break" like you claimed, unless you're proposing that bystanders are more competent than your heroes. 
 
And what's most appalling to me this that this is mathematically obvious.  Painfully so, even.  +1 CV in 6e is 10 real.  Even 1 DCV and a 2-point CSL is 7 real.  And 3 DEX NFC is 6 real.  And 6 is a smaller number than both 7 and 10. 

With that attitude, we are most certainly not "cool". 

And I responded to that first post in detail, and on that statement particularly.
 
But I'll repeat the relevant parts of that long post here for convenience:
 
 
 
 
 
I didn't miss your point at all, I chose to focus on a central flaw undermining it in the abstract. 
 
However, I'll be more specific here.
 
What you were trying to demonstrate, as I understand it, was that x3 END Blast plus END Reserve to offset the limitation is 40 points in 6e and 31 points in 5e, while a x4 Charges Blast is 25 points in either. From which you draw the conclusion that a player should not buy the Increased END / END Reserve and instead should take the Charge based version in 6e. Ipso facto, you believe that this demonstrates a disconnect between Increased END, END Reserves, etc in 6e, and by extension reflects a lack of understanding of the nature and intent of those game elements by the game designer, and by further extension this serves as an example of pattern of the game designer making changes to the system that they did not understand the nature and ramifications of.
 
So, if I've understood your point correctly (and please correct me if I have not), there are numerous holes in that position.
 
The most obvious of which, the axiomatic failure, is the assumption that it is or was valid in 6e or pre-6e to take a x3 END power and then take an END Reserve for the purposes of making that not matter, and thus for purely min max considerations Charges would be equally suitable and whichever happens to be cheapest is the correct path.
 
This is directly counter to the intent of limitations, which are present to model character concepts, and which directly state that GM's should monitor the usage of a power taken to mitigate the limitations on other powers and whether that causes the mitigated limitations to be invalid (not worth any points back).
 
The character concept of the character in question and the sfx of their abilities should dictate which is more appropriate to the character when it comes to Increased Endurance or Charges, and if an END Reserve is wanted for the character it should similarly be defined per the character's concept and sfx. 
 
Thus it is a flawed argument to begin with. You begin with the premise that the game designer doesn't understand the system, and then attempt to prove it via an example that demonstrates a lack of understanding of the game system (vis a vis Limitations, sfx, and reasoning from effect) on your part. 
 
However, fine, if we want to cede that there is a character concept and sfx at play in which either Increased END + END Reserve or Charges are equally appropriate for that character, I'll drill down a bit on the mechanics.
 
First off Increased Endurance powers vs Charges powers is a difficult thing to measure in a vacuum, because the impact of each is determined by the frequency of expected usage within an adventuring day (or whatever increment the GM allows for Charges to reset).
 
In my experience 4 Charges per day would be more limiting than x3 END in practice, because I don't allow my players to do a fight rest fight rest 15-minute adventuring day, and I don't usually do 1 big combat per game session. Most sessions involve a series of encounters or obstacles of varying difficulty.
 
It also depends on what power Charges are applied to; a 4 Charge Blast would be nearly useless the way I run my games unless the blast effect were very high relative to the campaign, while a x3 END Blast would be more likely to be used more than 4 times per time Day (or time increment until Charges reset). However a 4 Charge Transform or 4 Charge Teleport might be sufficient to the typical need. Instant Attack powers meant to be part of the character's typical repertoire vs other abilities that are more situational are more impacted by a low number of Charges.
 
The Charges modifier is relatively uninteresting unto itself at its most basic configuration as an X per day mechanic unless it is taken at a level where it becomes an Advantage. However, it is a platform for other options that extend the utility of Charges considerably. By comparison, Increased Endurance only varies in multiple and offers no further utility for modeling a concept. Clips, Continuous Charges, Fuel Charges, Boostable Charges, Recoverable Charges, etc, provide interesting and useful options to model a variety of concepts.
 
So, right off the bat, the comparison between x3 END Blast and x4 / Day Blast at 25 points for either, in both 6e and pre-6e, doesn't make much sense. The Charge based version is almost certainly worse than the x3 END version unless the GM runs a very abbreviated adventuring day. How much worse is not really quantifiable as it depends on circumstances in game and variations in the adventuring pace of individual groups.
 
However, if it were me and my character and I was picking one or the other from a min max perspective, I would tend to prefer the x3 END power because I the player can mitigate that during game play, while I the player have less influence over how many challenges the GM might throw at me where I would want to use the power in a given adventuring day. 
 
On the other hand as a GM, if I'm making opposition for the PC's to face, most NPC's have a shelf life of one encounter; they are mostly disposable. As the # of encounters a non-recurring NPC will participate in is generally one, a small number of Charges sufficient for one typical encounter makes my life easier as I don't have to track END for them, and is not very limiting to the NPC. Significant NPC's might be a different matter, depending on how I intend to use them. If I as the GM dispense with concept and just go with mechanics, and am determined to min max the opposition to pack the most punch per point, then Charges are great for me and unfair to the PC's. This is not new to 6e, its the nature of the asymmetrical impact of symmetrical mechanics on characters that appear in nearly every scene vs those who appear in only one.
 
There are also other comparisons that can be made going the other way, Reduced Endurance vs larger numbers of Charges, that also often math out oddly
 
This is indicative that vanilla Charges and their costing is and have been problematic, particularly in the middle ranges vs the extremes. If I remember correctly, @Sean Waters and others have done work in this area deconstructing Charges. I'm content in this context to just say that the costing of Charges is woolly and subject to a greater degree of complexity than Increased Endurance and Reduced Endurance. 
 
You might then say, ah ha! And that's where my example of END Reserve as an alternative to Charges comes into play. However, a better example to establish or disprove your point from a purely mechanical standpoint (vs conceptual / sfx) would be to model a particular sfx such as a fuel cell using both END Reserve and Charges, OR to go after the mechanical differences between a set of powers each taking Charges on themselves vs each power working from a shared END Reserve, OR by extension of that go after the application of Charges to a FRAMEWORK such as a MP or VPP vs the utility of an END Reserve only usable by powers in that framework. This is where the real impact of changes to END Reserve's pricing and its utility for modeling legitimate character builds in an elegant way bear out.
 
It isn't your argument I object to, but rather the way you are trying to argue it. 
 
 
I can only say that I agree that Endurance Reserve was nerfed too much / is no longer viable / is more for concept than effect / etc so many times and in so many different ways.
 
But, I'll say it one more time: I agree that END Reserve in 6e is overcosted. 
 
To my mind it is a pimple on the ass of the system, niche and corner-cased, easily dealt with, and not a major talking point. Obviously it seems to have more weight in your eyes. 
 
As to whether it needed to be nerfed or not, I also agree. I think it did need to be adjusted a bit in line with changes made to END the characteristic, but a mild tweak.
 
The blurb under the "LIMITATIONS" subheader for END Reserve does have an entry for Increased Endurance which clearly calls out that "GM's should be wary of...should usually be forbidden", and that should have been sufficient to communicate the intent to block that particular exploit.
 
Presumably, there were other reasons for END Reserve's costing changes that are unknown to me; maybe they are math based, maybe they are based in a desire to disincentive the abuse of the power. Perhaps someone knows if Steve has ever given any indication into his reasons or if someone has reverse engineered the build to derive the underlying reasoning in the costing.
 
I took steps to correct it in my own campaigns and moved on. However, if END Reserve is a barrier to you accepting 6e in its entirety, then so be it. 

Please sir, can we have some more? 😃
 
- E

Please sir, can we have some more? 😃
 
- E

I like this better than my original alternatives. Like so:
 
3d6 Stun Drain (30 AP) Plus Naked Expanded Effect (+1/2) on 2d6 to add Body (10 AP), 40 AP total. Again, I would hand wave the minor differences in the way they work (technically this would always do 1 Body minimum unlike the original request which would do 3 stun and 0 body if you roll three ones).
 
- E

Why not do a Drain that does Stun and Body simultaneously?  It is slightly more lethal than the OP power suggestion but is the simplest way by RAW.

3d6 Blast AVAD (Power Defense)? Alternatively you could add a -1/2 limitation that the Body portion is all or nothing if the taking Body part is supposed to work that way for this power.
 
Or if you are specifically looking to use the return mechanics of Drain, then do a Stun Drain with a linked Body Drain. As a GM I would probably tell you to buy it at 2d6 Body for every 3d6 of Stun drain and then just count the Body dice of the Stun Drain (math is not exact but it is close enough for me for the utility).
 
Or link a AVAD Blast, Body Only (-1/2) for the same dice as the Drain. I think the price works out close to the 3/2 scheme above. 
 
- E

August 12, 2003, Simi Valley, California...01:31 AM PST.
 
The Millennial Men contingent plus their newly acquired unconscious hostage were making their way back to Matilda, still exercising stealth and moving tactically. They were about half way back to the car, weaving in, out, and around ruined vehicles and their sometimes grisly contents, when War-Man pulsed a halt tone over the team comms.
 
"Picking up bot chatter.", War-Man's modulated voice said via each team member's ear piece, even though the robot did not speak out loud. War-Man was able to transmit its voice digitally, a neat and sometimes useful trick.
 
Everyone hunkered down and put their heads on a swivel, except Alliage who was still concentrating on her anti-scrying spell. 
 
Wrath used hand signals to indicate he wanted to move ahead and get their transport and bring it back to them.
 
"Negative, Wrath. Standby.", War-Man transmitted.
 
Seconds ticked by, but no one was tense. This was a crew that knew how to handle themselves.
 
"Encryption cracked. There is an inbound patrol of high-fliers. Two Thetas with ground assault units and five Upsilon bombers. Appears to be routine. They will overfly our position in less than 30 seconds.", War-Man communicated.
 
On hearing of the inbound Upsilon bombers Wrath extracted a high tech gas mask from his load bearing vest and strapped it on. Those things often carried poison gas bombs and unlike War-Man, Alliage, and the MOD he was not immune to poisons. For his part, Rook could repel poison gas with his TK while holding a pocket of air in his force field sufficient to sustain himself for a while.
 
"They've detected us; they are moving into an attack pattern from the east to west, aligned with the freeway.", War-Man communicated even as its boot thrusters surged, launching the seven foot robot into the air, chest arc and hand cannons charging up.
 
Rook telekinetically grabbed all his other teammates without explanation and catapulted himself forward down the road towards Matilda with indescribable force, sending everything in his path bursting, screeching, sliding, tumbling away as if a giant invisible snow plow preceded him, pulling the MOD, Wrath, Alliage, and Sybyl's bodies behind himself like kites, and placing Sybyl with incredible finesse onto Alliage's disc in the process. After about 60 meters of that, his four ersatz passengers were unceremoniously hurled up and over his head to go sailing forward another hundred meters or so closer to Matilda. Alliage's disc kept her and Sybyl off the ground, bobbling a bit until leveling off, and the MOD and Wrath executed elaborate tumbling and acrobatic maneuvers to avoid going splat despite having been accelerated to around .5 Mach by their telekinetic teammate. It wasn't the first time Rook had pulled a stunt like that; throwing teammates at things was practically a hobby by now.
 
In the meantime seven of Mechanon's flying craft had emerged from cloud cover and the darkness of the night was split by a massive bolt of energy as the flying War-Man's chest arc discharged a blast right down the middle of the attack wing's formation. The attack aircraft scattered around the bolt, but one of the bombers was too slow and lost a clean plane of material along its flank including a stabilizer, razor sharp and glowing with heat like a potato peeled by a laser cutter, and spiraled out of control to crash a few moments later in a burnt out industrial park north of the freeway. 
 
Their bombing run ruined, the remaining four bombers looped up and back into the clouds of the midnight sky to maneuver for another pass. One of the two manta ray shaped Thetas stabilized its flight path with robotic precision and sent blasts of its own back at War-Man, only for the barrage of energy to be harmlessly rebuffed by War-Man's defense matrix. 
 
The wedge-like other Theta swooped low and disgorged a payload of twelve T-78 Antipersonnel robots...nasty things designed to kill humans with maximum efficiency, before swinging its nose back up to level off, and then began flying at Rook further down the road with blasters blazing.
 
Glancing back and noticing the gleaming, bladed robots with metallic boots on the ground, Rook muttered to himself, "Where's Gravitic when youse needs 'im?". He nullified his forward momentum on a dime and hurled himself back in the direction of the freshly disgorged killer robots, entirely ignoring the incoming fire from the approaching Theta as some of the energy bolts cracked harmlessly off of his potent force fields while the remainder chewed up the pavement around him. Again vehicles and detritus were pushed away by a swelling pressure wave in front of Rook as he launched forward to engage these juicy threats that had been so kindly made available for him to beat upon. When it was all said and done, Rook found skulking and sneaking around tedious...he preferred a more direct approach.

August 12, 2003, Mechazone (Camp Pendleton), California...01:25 AM PST.
 
Pete had sent Turbofist to run around the outside of the compound and reconnoiter what was on the two sides not visible from where they stood. The young mutant had vibrated his molecules in a visibly blurry display of power and shot off with an audible loud buzzing whine similar to the noise made by high end racing bikes to do a broad lap, returning nine seconds later to report that there was a loading dock on the side of the building beyond the palettes of stacked storage lockers that were partially visible from this side, with a large garage-style roller door that was closed, and that the far side compound wall and the back of the building itself were just blank concrete.
 
"So...should we wait for back up or should we go down there and check it out ourselves?", Turbofist asked.
 
"Good question. Let me think about it.", Pete replied. And give it a good think he did, in his usual thorough way.
 
On the one hand, his armor suit was impaired and he might be more of a liability than an asset if hostiles were encountered. He could send Turbofist in alone, but as likeable as the youthful hero may be, his maturity and decision making might not be up to the task. He could use comms to call Hype back and send him in, but there was no telling how that would turn out given Hype's volatility and incredible destructive tendencies. He could call Fade over from his lurking over yonder, and send him to teleport into the building, but again Pete was unsure if the ninja-like borderline vigilante would just start assassinating people. Pete's assessments might not be fair to his fellow heroes, but their temperaments and reliability were known unknowns. Finally, if Sybyl really was present, she may or may not recognize Hype, Fade, or Turbofist, and hostilities might ensue.
 
On the other hand, if Sybyl really was present she would definitely recognize him as Makeshift as they'd both fought one another and worked together previously, and thus maybe they could have a conversation without things getting ugly. If he did go down there himself in his busted armor and the situation went to shit, Turbofist was pretty handy in a fight and should be able to buy time, allowing Pete to fall back and take cover behind the shipping containers. Fade would presumably be on top of them in a second or two. Hype could be called back and at his top end speed would also be present posthaste. Also, the longer they waited around the more likely they were to be overrun by killer robots that they had to assume would eventually converge on their location once it was noticed that the bots destroyed earlier were no longer checking in...that might already be happening now.
 
Therefore the least worst option with fewest unknowns seemed to be for him to go down into the compound with Turbofist. Pete rolled that around a couple of times looking for flaws in his logic, but it seemed viable.
 
Turbofist was starting to get visibly antsy by the time Pete spoke again. "Ok, I think me and you should proceed down and hop the vehicle gate, and make our way to the loading dock you told me about around the side. My armor wont fit properly through the barricades around the front door, but we should be able to get the rolling door for the loading dock up. If we encounter resistance, we'll fall back to the big shipping containers, take cover and wait for Hype and Fade to rally on our position...you'll run interference in the meantime. Legit?"
 
"Yeah! Sounds great! Let's do it!", Turbofist exclaimed without contemplation, instantly enthusiastic and reminding Pete of just how young the young speedster really was.
 
Makeshift indicated they should proceed, Turbofist powered up, and the two headed down the gently inclined path to the slatted metal barrier of the vehicle gate below them. Turbofist simply vibrated his molecules to phase through it, passing harmlessly to the other side with only a high pitched vibratory whine to mark his passage. Makeshift hopped over it with a quick rocket assisted jump, landing on the packed gravel of the compound's yard with a stony crunch. 
 
They paused for a moment, trying to notice if they'd been noticed, but nothing seemed to be changed so they proceeded past the parked military vehicles on the one side and the massive shipping containers on the other, then around to the side past the stacked storage boxes...to find the rolling garage door on the loading dock open and a figure familiar to Pete standing just inside of it waiting for them.

August 12, 2003, Mechazone (Camp Pendleton), California...01:21 AM PST.
 
"...this is gonna hurt...", Pete muttered to himself, clenching up as he helplessly watched the I-37 snap into firing position, just as a new alert popped up to join the clutter across his HUD. A proximity alert from his 'star-dar' (sodar / radar / lidar / a couple of other -dars) sensor system, warning about a couple of blips moving so impossibly fast that they hit the extreme outer edge of his sensor range and streaked across to his position faster than the alert could even pop up.
 
In a fraction of a second the I-37 went from being powerfully braced to fire a probably lethal blast at Makeshift to being a deformed pile of badly mangled metal over 30 yards to the left of where it had been, contrails of explosive energy trailing behind it as a black and red blur and a white and red blur streaked by. The noise was indescribable. Extreme sound barrier breakage, some kind of buzzing shearing vibratory whine, and a horrifically energetic collision with the robot's metal structure resulted in a catastrophony that caused sound bafflers in Pete's helmet to register it as a sonic attack and automatically filter most of it out. 
 
It was a neat trick, but Pete had seen it before, more or less. Hype and Turbofist, a couple of Millennium City speedsters, both ludicrously fast and dangerous alone and mindbogglingly destructive when working together. Unfortunately, neither of them were particularly stealthy and were ill-suited to sneak-work and thus were not usually applied to missions like this.
 
Hype had a bit of a reputation as being a loose cannon and a pain in the ass to deal with, and the limited contact Pete had with him on a couple of other operations in the last few months had done nothing to dispel those rumors. Turbofist was well regarded in the community, as far as Pete knew, and though they hadn't worked together directly yet Pete had seen him around on missions as well as palling around back in Bakersfield and had noted that people tended to smile more when the young speedster was in their company. Both were associated with the Millennial Men out of Millennium City, heavy hitters and a very mixed bag of badasses, assholes, and superstars.
 
Makeshift's sensors alerted him to another blip. This one appeared and disappeared a few times, getting closer rapidly, materializing a few seconds later a couple of arm lengths in front of him; a lean black-clad superhero with a naginata who appeared to fade in and out of existence several times a second in a slightly different location each time. Pete recognized him as Fade, a teleporting speedster lately of Southern Justice out of Atlanta. Unlike the other two speedsters, this one was extremely stealthy and was a prime resource for this kind of mission. Rumor had it he was a killer, a borderline vigilante. 
 
Fade looked him up and down with cold, merciless eyes. "You look totally @#$@ed. Are you combat effective?". Hype and Turbofist zipped up at that moment, setting off shrill proximity alerts once again inside Pete's helmet. He kind of hated working with fast movers; they played havoc with his sensors and the constant alerts would generally give him a piercing headache in short order.
 
"Sowhereisthetimethingwereheretocaptureorbeatup?", Hype blurted as soon as he stopped moving, a little too close for Pete's comfort.
 
Turbofist also came to rest a more respectful distance away. "Are you ok in there? Your armor looks pretty damaged.", he said.
 
Pete switched off the jammer and suppressed the less alarming alarms from his HUD, taking stock. He'd have to figure out what was going on with his plasma systems later, and without those online and the water cannon busted he was running out of options. 
 
"No I'm not combat effective...most secondary systems are intact but almost all of my weapon systems are down, what we're looking for is about a quarter of a mile that way, and I'm banged up but I'll live.", Pete answered in order, pointing up the road at the appropriate moment.
 
Hype was already gone, and then he was back. Pete's temple was split with another panicked proximity alert.
 
"Theresasmallcompoundupthisroad...lookslikeafortress...nowindowslotsofwire", Hype communicated, and was off again.
 
"He says there's a walled compound with a windowless fortress up ahead. Might be the place.", Turbofist translated.
 
"You're supposed to have some kind of sensor for this stuff, yeah?", Fade asked, eerily calm. There was something about this guy that made people instinctively nervous. He was too calm, too cold, too collected. Also, the whole strobing in and out of existence thing was pretty creepy.
 
"Yes.", Pete responded. 
 
"Well, sense onward then oh sensor bearer. I'll shadow you.", Fade replied sardonically, and then teleported away, blipping off and then back on Pete's sensors again a few hundred feet away. 
 
"I'll walk with you for a stretch.", Turbofist said, and fell into step beside him.
 
"It must be torturous for you to slow down to my speed.", Pete said, tromping away from the broken tree and up the road he had been paralleling previously. No point skulking about now that the cavalry was here.
 
Turbofist laughed. "No, not really. I turn my powers on and off as an act of will; I'm not 'stuck on' like some speedsters.".
 
"That must be nice; best of both worlds."
 
"Yes and no.", Turbofist replied earnestly, "it is nice from a lifestyle perspective, but it puts me at a disadvantage against other top end speedsters."
 
"Between you and me, I think it's a good trade off...I kind of find most speedsters intolerable to be around."
 
Turbofist laughed. "Your secret is safe with me."

Nice story line.
 

I like him. But he seems so unaffected by the ghouls and such that I would have either bought him a higher PRE or some presence defense.
 
- E

I have played since 87 or so (Champs 1-3, Danger Intl, Justice Inc) and run games in versions 3-6. Currently running an MHI-like game with cribs from Killer Shrikes Here There Be Monsters as well as bits and pieces from popular TV, movies, books and my imagination. I did buy MHI but I am one of those weirdo's who likes to customize things too much to run straight from the book for the most part. There are certainly some good pieces in there, and I use the HS6e Equipment Guide, a few bits from the APG's, and a thing or two from the Dark Champions templates.
 
- E

I say this with affection; as long as Duke is around no one can accuse me of being the worst offender in the category of extreme verbosity. 

Yes.  That is precisely what I am saying.
 
in regards to published characters:
 
Outside of the Champions rule book (2e), I had _no_ published anything for many years.  I had access to 1e, as it's what my first Champions GM used, and what I first learned to play.
 
I have posted this repeatedly, but will, for the sake of this discussion, re-post it here:
 
I never cared for pre-printed adventures.  There is a laundry list of reasons, but let's go with the single biggest one:  they are tied to the main published setting, which poses two almost-immediate problems: either they are static forever, without regard for what your PCs have done to effect change in the universe or 2) they change in ways that make absolutely no sense in regard to the direction your game went.
 
Considering also at the time that most of us were in or just finishing college, money wasn't  the sort of thing we were intimately familiar with, so any excuse not to have to hunt up some was valid.  Thus, no: we had _no_ published material.
 
Shortly before BBB hit the stands, I picked up a discounted copy of Champs II and a used copy of Champs III.
 
I read into them just enough to discover that there were _not_ actually newer versions of the game, so I immediately logged them as "supplemental stuff tied to a game universe I don't need or care about,"relegated them to a bookshelf, where they would remain for well over a decade.   They would not get read cover-to-cover until the internet became a thing and, when I finally got curious enough to pop in one of those AOL disks (after buying a modem) that paved the streets at that time.
 
BBB came out.  I bought it and the brown paper cover "HERO System," assuming it to be something different from Champions.  Read it.  Saw some of the character samples and thought "these people are smoking crack!", particularly in light of the section in there discussing the "types of players" and how obviously these were being designed by whatever it was they were calling the munchkin (I don't remember anymore).  As you well know, as I only very recently posted it, I rather liked 4e.  The campaign stuff was useless to me, but the rest of it I rather liked.  Never moved into it because my players at the time weren't interested, realistically we had a few house rules in play here and there that already did what most of the stuff I was interested in did.  Players weren't interested in learning anything new, so we cribbed a few things here and there and my wonderful 4e, to my dismay, became a coloring book for player's children, and a few players.  I gave the brown soft cover away up realizing that it was the same as BBB, but will less stuff.  Most importantly, it didn't say Champions.
 
 
So at that point, I had Champions 2e, Champs 2 and 3, still unfinished, and BBB, ready twice, popped my eyes at how radically different the characters were from what we had been playing.
 
I had the owner of my favorite game shop tell me that there was going to be a Western "game" using Champions rules.  I got really pumped.  I had let the other genre books slide (not really understanding that they were more than just "theme" books: there were some interesting rules ideas, adventure ideas, etc---  but I didn't know all that.  I just thought "eh" and let them pass.
 
By that point, I owned Star HERO (the original), Champions 2e (though I was on like my second replacement for that), Champs II and III, still never finished, and the original Fantasy HERO, which I had read once to convince myself I wouldn't like it.  I didn't manage to convince myself of that, and was a bit surprised.  I waffled over picking up a new game, since Champions had been my de-facto running gear for every genre for many, many years at that point.  It just didn't seem necessary.  I waffled over it for a couple of months, but on launch day, I picked it up: to this day, it remains the _only_ "reference book" I have ever bought new, and I kicked my butt all up and down the street at the "waste" of money that could have been better-spent on groceries.
 
But I _loved_ that book.  That book became soft, fat, ratty, and filthy with use.  It became our new backbone for non-supers games.  Yes; it was just Champions, which we were doing anyway, but there was so much "normal guy" stuff in there that it just about _lived_ on the table.
 
But I digress, which I really was trying to make a point of not doing.
 
 
One day it hit me that the internet might have one of those "chat room things" where other gamers hung out.  I might be able to meet other hero gamers (they had gotten thin in my area at that time, and I had been getting my fix at a D&D table rented at the game store.  All the other tables were filled with Magic: the Marketing games.  I learned that I don't care for CCGs by trying to learn a little bit.  The game store owner, of course, loved them: they were paying his rent.
 
At any rate, I had heard all the dangers or the internet, and how many freaks and weirdoes were out there.  Well surely that included _my_ kind of freaks and weirdoes, and against my budget, my "good judgement" based on popular opinion of the day, and the protestations of my wife about how we would catch a computer virus that burn the house down, I popped in one of those AOL disks and started looking for other players.
 
Two weeks later I found contact information for four of them.  The only thing eventful to come from that was that I "met" Derrick Hiemforth (apologies for any misspellings there) right after hatching a plan to collect favorite house rules from other players, bundle them, and exchange them.  You see, I _really_ had no idea how the internet worked.  I thought that was something that would be useful!      Derrick, ascertaining that I was completely out of touch with the internet, mentioned to me there was no reason for this project to continue, as there were a million sites where people put up and shared their house rules already, and he pointed me to the Circle of Heroes and the old Red October board. 
 
And all this time, every published book I had owned could be counted on one hand, and two of them I had never finished reading.
 
There began to circulate news that a guy who had written stuff for HERO "way back when" had bought the copyright and was looking to put forth a new edition.  That news led me to this board-- well, a much older version of it, but this board, nonetheless.
 
I discovered eBay while looking around for book finders, which were still a thing then, but well on their way out.  I had learned of all kinds of books like Western HERO from the internet, and I wanted to read them all!  (unfortunately, i had started with the best one, so it was a bit of a disappointment when I finally did manage to secure Cyber HERO and Horror HERO.  (I ended up getting them from a book finder service; i got burned the very first time I tried eBay, which did little to change my mind about the horrors of the internet.  I trusted no one without a physical address and a phone number.  Still have problems with that, but I'm getting better).
 
In the meanwhile, I had located more HERO players, and lost interest in the internet: I had done what I needed to do with it, after all.  They were playing Fantasy, using this gorgeous book called "Fantasy HERO," but it looked _nothing_ like mine.  They had that one, too, mind you, but they also a book very much like Western HERO, only for Fantasy.  They also had Fantasy HERO Companion II, which I _did_ read, simply because Western HERO had been great, and Fantasy HERO had a lot of interesting "new" stuff in it.  FHC II was, in my opinion at the time, useless.  No more than the GM looked at it, I don't think he had a great opinion of it, either.  I don't know what to call the first Fantasy HERO-- I am told it was 3e rules, but that was the only rules book they had on the table.  I didn't care, because it was pretty much the system I loved.
 
After playing with them for about a year, I ended up back in the GM seat and ran fantasy for a bit before tempting them with other genres.  This was where my Western occult game went down.  It started out as Western, but it was clear that the players were missing the magic and mystery they got from fantasy, so I worked it in, with a few angles and twists not common to Fantasy.  It was almost Voodoo.  They loved it, and that game went on for nearly four years.  This was the point at which I decided I really wanted to pen a supplement to Western HERO, and bought a couple of sourcebooks from the clearance rack at the game store to use as guides for how to format, how to layout, and most importantly for me: how to _edit_ so that the extraneous did not fill the body of the work.   One of the books in the bin was "Old West," and I took that as a shoe-in, since it would likely have a reference list to get me started on my own research.  I read Old West (GURPS 3e) and decided I couldn't do better than that if I _prayed_ for talent.  I kept that book.  Still have it.  Recently picked up a second copy for PDF-ing purposes.
 
During that time, some interesting things happened:
 
Near the end of that game, 5e came out.  At the mid-point of that game, the father of my first Champions GM had died.  Between these two events, his mother had a fatal stroke.  He came back to Georgia to settle family affairs, and I helped him clean out the house and donate what was worthy of donation and to discard what wasn't.   There were two bedrooms _filled_ with his old comic book collection.  He took it to the local comic store and simply gave it to them.  He took his gaming stuff (which was _far_ more substantial a collection than I had remembered) to the game store a few towns away (our favorite one) and simply gave them all of that.  He gave me his HERO-related stuff.  I protested that he should keep it, and he simply said "Duke, I haven't looked at it in twenty years.  My kids are into video games and dont care about gaming and my brother thinks he outgrew it.  And mostly, I don't want a damned thing from out of that house.  I just couldn't look at it."
 
There was....   well, I hate to say it, but there was pretty much _everything_ from first edition all the way through third, except for the first edition box set of rules, which he had taken to Nevada with him when he finally found a post-college job.  I looked through it.  I kept the two versions of 3e, because they were Champions.  There was the glue bound book and there were the contents of the boxed set (no box, no dice, but yet another map).  I never read them, either.  Partly because I didn't like the covers (nothing against the art itself: I make no secret that I really enjoy William's particular style), but there was something in the composition of that picture that was off-putting.  That freaky add on the back cover just made it worse.  I thumbed through them, saw the layout, and for some reason thought "Oh; it's a re-packaged Champions III.  I don't need that."  (the bound "campaign book" struck me as evidence that I had been right, and Champions II and II were simply more published adventures and the rules on how to make cars, which we didn't need, either).
 
I mean never read them.  As in to this moment: 2:41 AM eastern, February 17, 2019, I have never read them.  Closest I've been to reading them is thumbing through them.  I have laid the map out with the three other maps from my various 2e sets bought over the years to create a large map, but that's not really reading the books, is it?
 
I bought 5e and Sidekick (liked Sidekick better) and based on the recommendations of many people on the internet had my 5e bullet-stopper spiral bound.  I have regretted very few things more than I regretted that.  I've promised myself not to do that to anything, ever again.  I would _like_ to replace it with another bound copy, but it's a really low priority.
 
As I was saying, I was going through Jim's old books and noticed that everything that wasn't the 3e rules books were either Villains books or published adventures.  I had no want of any of them, and never bothered reading them.  I spent the next few months giving them away to players or trading them for other 4e genre books.
 
I bought Tuala Morn because I liked the lettering on the cover.  Fortunately, I enjoyed the contents.  That was the first 5e book I bought outside the rule book.
 
I began to wonder if it was possible for me to scan my 2e book, which was succumbing to abuse the way the first two had.  I didn't want to pull it apart in case the project failed, so I offered up Champs III for the experiment.  Besides, it could stand some repair: years and years of being slid off the shelf by the gaming table to be used as a coaster were taking their toll on the cover.
 
I won't say that the project was a staggering success, but it was successful enough for me to keep going.  I also have three "brand new" Champions III books with wrongly-repair cover art and spots of noise here and there (there are three because of some confusion on the part of the printer).  They are also printed on the wrong paper: they're on glossy magazine-type paper.
 
I began a serious campaign to collect up the 4e books.  I _like_ 4e.  My old GM set the precedent for me, and I didn't even realize it: he never used those books he had, but he collected them for some personal reason anyway.  I don't know why, exactly, unless it was the same issue I had been expecting: after a few games, your setting and the published setting don't mesh anymore.  And why use someone else's villains when making them was so much fun?
 
Recently-- very recently, in fact: mid-July of last year, I found myself with a slightly expanded budget (at the cost of considerably less free time).  That is when I sat down in earnest to collect (and in the case of what my GM had given me, "re-collect") the books I don't have.  Even then, it's not so i can read them.  It's simply so I can make sure that they are somehow preserved for everyone, for any future HERO fans who might just want "catch 'em all."
 
Did I have to tell you _all_ this?  
 
No.  But I tell it to you and to anyone else who might still be paying attention so that you will know where I have been coming from on all those occasions I stated clearly that i never picked up published material, always viewing it as "too little, too late" or "out of touch with my own games."  And mostly, so will know where I am coming from when I state, yet again, and with complete honesty:
 
NO!  
 
No, I did _NOT_ see those examples of bizarrely-inflated characteristics.
_NO_; I did not have access to published material in any useful form.
_YES_, it is entirely possible to play, enjoy, and downright _love_ the game without having to buy every single scrap of paper related to it.
_NO_, those published characters clearly aren't necessary.
_NO_, you don't even need "examples" of how to build a character to get a game going, just rules on how to do it.
_NO_, there is absolutely no need to use the work of a complete stranger as some kind of benchmark for your builds.
_YES_, even officially-liscenced, written-by-brand-name-guy-X, published-by-the-guys-who-made-the-rules supplemental material _is_  _supplemental_, and totally unnecessary in every way, shape and form to the playing of them game--
 
 
and I don't even know what else.  Those are the high spots:
 
No; never saw that crap.
No; never needed that crap.
No; never wanted that crap, until very recently, and even then only as a source for creating a digital archive of those things for which there are not already available PDFs.  The only things I want are 4 and 5e genre books (because, while I didn't like Dark Champions, I _do_ like Steve's setting books.  The man has wicked crazy research skills) and any stand-alone games from 5 and 6.  I think I have all three from 6 (there are only 3, right?) and Basic, which I got because-- hey, one thin book.  Last week I got my revised Sidekick- because, again: one thin book with all the rules you need. And it looks nice next to my Sidekick.
 
 
 
1) _YES_, every time I sit down to play.  
2) You have my sympathy.
 
 
Again, YES!  Buying up figureds because it was appropriate to what was in the player's mind when he made the character, or my mind when I made the NPC.  
 
Did you even read any of the conversations I thought we'd had in the past on this and similar subjects?  Or have I just been having extensive non-versations with myself while answering your questions?  We have had this _exact_ bit of information exchanged between us, and on more than one occasion.
 
 
 
 
 
You know what's funny?
 
You do things like your teachers.  I was taught "get an idea, then make the sheet match that idea!"  It was fresh and it was _so_ exciting, particularly coming from my previous gaming experience, _all_ of which was "roll these dice and that's your guy."  Worse, Traveller (which I still love, for the record):  Uhm....  my guy died.  I haven't even played him yet.  Why can he die before he gets played?!  "Well, that's to add a gamble to keep you from going to crazy trying to gain another couple of skills or mustering out bennies.  Makes you not want to be as old when you start adventuring, too!  It's a _great_ idea!"  But he's dead!  I've been working on him for twenty minutes, and now I have to start over because the rules include spontaneous abortion?!  What the Hell, Man?!
 
So I played the game the way I was taught.  And when I taught other people how to play, guess how I taught them?  The way I was taught.  Guess how they play?
 
And it's not a unique thing: I've joined into groups as a player that play very much the same way: concept-first.
 
 
 
 
 
And conversations like this lead me to wonder just how much their creativity or desired conceptions were hampered by the extra money they could afford to spend.
 
As to the points-efficiency of published characters: I don't doubt it.  Of late, I have seen it, now that, at 58, I can _finally_ afford to pick up some of that stuff from the past.  Partly due to a slight rise in budget, and mostly due to  a considerable drop in cover price.
 
But it's just like this board:
 
The people that are that deeply involved in a hobby are going to exchange lots of information, and eventually get really damned judgmental about what's the "right" way to have fun.  There are people that will simply kowtow and start doing things your way.  But there are a few people who will tell you that I've got plenty of milk, and don't need you pissing in my corn flakes; thanks all the same.