Duke Bushido

Maybe I misunderstood, but I thought the idea was to have mega powers that were mega in their active costs, but loaded with limitations to drive down their real costs. In which case, players wouldn't be spending a major portion of their point budget on such powers, but a rather small portion, leaving plenty of points for other powers and abilities.

Personal experience here, and a great deal of it:
 
This idea of Chris's isn't too terribly far from how we play.  Summed up, we play "screw active points."  We have a total cost limit (250, using the 2e 100 + Disadvantages model).  Spend as many or as few as you want, anywhere you want.As I mentioned to Chris in a discussion some time back, I suspect that this is because way back when we were learning to play 1e, we had too many people who just couldn't get wrapped around the division of costs, so we let it slide "until we get more familiar with the rules," but we just never went back.  We use AP today for building and costing and that's about it.  Campaign limits, etc, are all built on real points, period. 
 
Yes:  Everyone has done four or five characters over the years with a MegaBuster (I also really enjoyed the Guyver, way back when, even though the later parts of the series didn't hold up well).  They get bored very quickly.   You will have a mix of cardboard cannons and paintball Tanks for a bit, but after three, sometimes four sessions of firing off  The Big Gun and then spending the rest of the battle recovering or actively running away, seeking cover, etc, and watching everyone else do stuff and roll dice, the players start to fume about not having fun doing anything, and their fellow players start to grumble and complain _loudly_ about how quickly the team's firepower is dwindling.  The Paintball Tanks, effectively invulnerable but unable to really make a dent in the opposition, wander around sheltering the Cardboard Cannons until they themselves are restrained, out of END, or the bad guys merrily skip away, singing cheerful taunts the whole time.   The Cardboard Cannons are usually the first to Abort to Recrimination; that's always fun to listen to.
 
 
Short version:
 
This is one of those problems that everyone gags on when they read it, but actually _doing_ it proves that the problem--- I won't lie: it _does_ exist, in as much as players _will_ try it-- is one-hundred-percent self-solving:  Everyone tries it, realizes just how much actual "Game" they have cheated themselves out of, then begs to make new characters.  These new characters are typically much more suited to the game at hand.  Like a lot of the grumbling during discussion about the evils of this idea or the abuse of that idea, or the remake of Poltergeist,  the Hype of Horror is far, far greater than what you actually end up seeing.
 
 
Now I will one-hundred percent say that groups who prefer the tactics / wargaming approach like our friend Scott will likely get much, _much_ more use out of this, because they will most likely be far more able to keep their personalities in check long enough to cooperate and launch a coordinated attack, cannons behind tanks, firing and recovering in turn, etc., with an eye more toward _the team_ achieving a goal.   Most of the people I've ever played with enjoy the map; they enjoy the scenario, but they also enjoy the "this is what _my guy_ would do" and running with it.  It works beautifully with a balanced team of balanced characters, but it _sucks_ for unbalanced characters that need to use more militaristic unit tactics.   
 
 
 
 
 
You are making the assumption that the game will start with X points.  The problem of 'still having lots of powers left' can be solved simply by lowering the starting points.  Depending on the group, this may affect the entire build, as players wanting characters with numerous powers will be less inclined to dump two hundred points into MegaBuster.
 
As noted above, in my own experience, firing off the Big Guns early results in not being able to fire them off for very long, and missing becomes a serious problem with regard to END costs, collateral damage, and not having that shot later (Charges, for example), and the player boredom / frustration that results from sitting around "taking a few recoveries" while everyone else moves tokens and rolls dice.  The knee jerk reaction is to "save it for the best use," which actually has far more tactical effects: if they've used it before, the bad guys know it's still out there, and tend to act accordingly.   Though your high-tech bad guy Doctor Clockwork can send an army of cheap wind-up decoys to goad the characters into using it to exhaustion, as can your mentalist Doctor Illusion.
 
Either way, it's going to depend far, _far_ more on your group (as I mentioned: I'm pretty sure Scott's friends would clobber my friends in a friendly match, simply because the idea of specialized high-powered one-trick ponies works best for players who prefer methodical tactics, and sucks for drama majors) and how many points you actually let them use.
 
 

No.
 
Some use power builds.  Still doesn't require martial arts.
 
Defender was a martial artist before Allston ever had his idea to sell Skill levels in fractions for single-use builds.
 
 
HtH Attack; NND.  LImited by STR if you like, but not necessary.  Far more options if you don't.
 
 
 
See above.   Actually, that's pretty much _all_ the moves that use the NND element: HtH: NND.  
 
There.  One build, and now I have unlimited styles should I so choose.  And of course, all the moves that use the NND element.
 
 
Breaks the rules as-is (two actions in your half-phase), but no one complains because "mystic arts" and "I can yell He-Yah!"  Still, if you can break the rules there, you can break them elsewhere:
 
Throw.  Grab weapon on the way by.
 
Yes; it's two moves.  So is, if I may quote "Disarm and throw."  we'll do the same thing "martial arts" did and add the key phrase "at the same time:"
 
Throw opponent and grab weapon _at the same time_.
 
 
 
All break the rules in their own way, but hey-- martial arts, amirite?   
 
Multipower Attacks have, for many players, _always_ been a part of the game; they were officially codified in 5e.
 
So....
 
HtH attack, HtH attack, HtH attack.  Assign dice as desired.   Using multipower attack, I can now combine _three_ attacks into a single half phase!  Or use autofire for up to ten; whichever seems best.
 
Ohh!  Wait:  HtH attack 3d6 Autofire, HtH attack 3d6 Autofire, HtH attack 3d6 autofire....   Declare a multiple power attack, through in some skill levels-- Boom!  Thirty attacks in a half phase.
 
 
 
You can put your skill levels wherever you want.  It's zero phase, use-it-with-a-full-move stuff.
 
 
Break the rules if you let them use a full move and an attack _in the same Phase_ and don't declare it as a move-by or a move-through.
 
However:
 
Move by.
Move through.
 
If you want to use stuff from martial arts, use the unnamed single-point adder that makes you immune to taking any of the v/5 damage.  That, I think, is _totally_ worth the point.  We should let speedsters have it, too.
 
 
No sarcasm here:  I simply want to point out that your argument is that I can't use Killing Attack without buying a Killing element via martial arts.  I could digress into the "ranged" versus "STR Bonus" points to the existence of a 10-pt Killing Attack that has neither range nor STR Bonus, which in turn points to the existence if a +1/2 "Killing" Advantage, but I won't get any deeper into it, because Hugh hates it.     However, if I were to do it, it would point out just how busted the costing for the killing element is.
 
At any rate:  Killing Attack.  It comes with even more Killing Attack if you have an STR of 15 or higher.
 
 
 
 
Again: the argument is that I can't use the actual _power_ without buying the element that simulates it.
 
Flash.  Done.
 
 
 
It sounds crazy to folks who hold fast to the idea that the campaign guidelines for one guy's one campaign are die hard essentials for all guys' all campaigns, but I'm going to go with +X STR; no extra lifting / jumping.  Or even more specifically: +STR: only to break grab.
 
 
 
No; _your_ discussion might be "only using combat skill levels to simulate martial arts;" I won't deny that.
 
My posit was "there are no martial maneuvers that can't be done without buying martial arts."  I didn't mention Skill Levels there at all, mostly because I understand that Martial Arts itself isn't possible without dipping into the Powers list, though over the years I have learned that renaming a super-discount Skill Level or Power as an "Element" is enough to make a lot of people fail to see them as actual Powers after that.
 
Your discussion screws anyone from demonstrating this, because you are implying that Allston built the Martial Arts from Skill Levels alone, which he did not.  As you pointed out, you can't Skill Level your way into a Killing Attack.  However, because "ooh!  Martial Arts!," you can buy a Killing Attack for some ridiculously low-low price.
 
So...   Martial Arts should remain core rules because.....Cheese?    or because Tasty Cheese?   
 
I disagree.  There are a number of martial arts (actual martial arts; not dice-and-hex-paper martial arts) fans on the board and in the hobby, and you want to know something?  I think _that_ is the reason everyone argue so vehemently when I state my opinion that they are unnecessary.  "Oooh; but that's my jam!" doesn't make something more relevant, more critical, or more un-cheesed.  It just means it's something that _you_ like.  I don't even advocate doing away with them, honestly: I actually think it was originally a very cute idea, and I still think so today.  However, I think they should be very clearly relegated to "this kind of a campaign" and not presented as core rules.
 
And just so you and I can both properly apologize to the OP for skewing the course of this thread,  the conversation at hand is the generic, non-specified martial art and using it in Hero Designer.
 
Sorry, Hero GM.
 
I helped drag your thread off course, and didn't realize it wouldn't bounce back.
 
I know nothing of Hero Designer, and can't help you there, but I am a _huge_ fan of doing Martial Arts builds without doing Martial Arts builds, so I sincerely hope it's as easy to work out as it sounds.
 
 
 

@Duke Bushido, Well Champions Complete has it. Hero System Martial Arts, I believe UMA 5th and possibly 4th though without those two you can still build the maneuvers. And Champions Powers might have it.

Personal experience here, and a great deal of it:
 
This idea of Chris's isn't too terribly far from how we play.  Summed up, we play "screw active points."  We have a total cost limit (250, using the 2e 100 + Disadvantages model).  Spend as many or as few as you want, anywhere you want.As I mentioned to Chris in a discussion some time back, I suspect that this is because way back when we were learning to play 1e, we had too many people who just couldn't get wrapped around the division of costs, so we let it slide "until we get more familiar with the rules," but we just never went back.  We use AP today for building and costing and that's about it.  Campaign limits, etc, are all built on real points, period. 
 
Yes:  Everyone has done four or five characters over the years with a MegaBuster (I also really enjoyed the Guyver, way back when, even though the later parts of the series didn't hold up well).  They get bored very quickly.   You will have a mix of cardboard cannons and paintball Tanks for a bit, but after three, sometimes four sessions of firing off  The Big Gun and then spending the rest of the battle recovering or actively running away, seeking cover, etc, and watching everyone else do stuff and roll dice, the players start to fume about not having fun doing anything, and their fellow players start to grumble and complain _loudly_ about how quickly the team's firepower is dwindling.  The Paintball Tanks, effectively invulnerable but unable to really make a dent in the opposition, wander around sheltering the Cardboard Cannons until they themselves are restrained, out of END, or the bad guys merrily skip away, singing cheerful taunts the whole time.   The Cardboard Cannons are usually the first to Abort to Recrimination; that's always fun to listen to.
 
 
Short version:
 
This is one of those problems that everyone gags on when they read it, but actually _doing_ it proves that the problem--- I won't lie: it _does_ exist, in as much as players _will_ try it-- is one-hundred-percent self-solving:  Everyone tries it, realizes just how much actual "Game" they have cheated themselves out of, then begs to make new characters.  These new characters are typically much more suited to the game at hand.  Like a lot of the grumbling during discussion about the evils of this idea or the abuse of that idea, or the remake of Poltergeist,  the Hype of Horror is far, far greater than what you actually end up seeing.
 
 
Now I will one-hundred percent say that groups who prefer the tactics / wargaming approach like our friend Scott will likely get much, _much_ more use out of this, because they will most likely be far more able to keep their personalities in check long enough to cooperate and launch a coordinated attack, cannons behind tanks, firing and recovering in turn, etc., with an eye more toward _the team_ achieving a goal.   Most of the people I've ever played with enjoy the map; they enjoy the scenario, but they also enjoy the "this is what _my guy_ would do" and running with it.  It works beautifully with a balanced team of balanced characters, but it _sucks_ for unbalanced characters that need to use more militaristic unit tactics.   
 
 
 
 
 
You are making the assumption that the game will start with X points.  The problem of 'still having lots of powers left' can be solved simply by lowering the starting points.  Depending on the group, this may affect the entire build, as players wanting characters with numerous powers will be less inclined to dump two hundred points into MegaBuster.
 
As noted above, in my own experience, firing off the Big Guns early results in not being able to fire them off for very long, and missing becomes a serious problem with regard to END costs, collateral damage, and not having that shot later (Charges, for example), and the player boredom / frustration that results from sitting around "taking a few recoveries" while everyone else moves tokens and rolls dice.  The knee jerk reaction is to "save it for the best use," which actually has far more tactical effects: if they've used it before, the bad guys know it's still out there, and tend to act accordingly.   Though your high-tech bad guy Doctor Clockwork can send an army of cheap wind-up decoys to goad the characters into using it to exhaustion, as can your mentalist Doctor Illusion.
 
Either way, it's going to depend far, _far_ more on your group (as I mentioned: I'm pretty sure Scott's friends would clobber my friends in a friendly match, simply because the idea of specialized high-powered one-trick ponies works best for players who prefer methodical tactics, and sucks for drama majors) and how many points you actually let them use.
 
 

Hence Knockback vs. Knockdown. In my games you don't HAVE to buy Martial Arts to swing a sword, you can get CSLs or PSLs to help you with that. I use the Dex/DCV penalty while wearing armor (depending on weight of armor). I've been using the suggestions in FH6/HSEG to allow people to buy "feats" to offset those penalties along with the movement within limits. I also allow them to buy "Sword Muscle" which like Gun Muscle allows them to get past the Str min on certain weapons. You want that little girl swinging the big @$$ sword? No problem. While I play and run my games intelligently it's still a game in the end. If I want to  introduce a few tropes in the game I will. 
 
AS to the topic. This is what DC's website has to say about Black Canary
 
 
So instead of buying all of that [Unless you're running a die-hard Dark Champion's or Martial Arts game], buy some skill levels and extra HTH damage. Maybe some extra STR. Not everything has to be apparent. For example I played a Vietnamese character in Dark Champions. When I built him he had  a base PRE of 10..that's it. I put some points into Conversation and Charm, some in PRE defense. Here is a guy who  looks like he could blend into the woodwork, but once you start talking to him he captures your attention. HIs partner was a 6"10 african-american that you notice as soon as he comes into the room, Tranh? He comes in and blends in and looks and notices what's going on. That scrawny rogue with 12m movement? He may have +12m movement, only to make half moves (giving him the full 12m). 
 
IIRC you can skip buying the same Maneuvers if they  are in different M.Arts as long as you have the knowledge skill for both, a big cost cutter I know. Tere is still a point of diminishing returns where that becomes crazy to keep up with. Just as HSMA even says, you can do this, or create Martial Arts as powers. While I admit S. Long can be...longwinded(?) in his writing he does make some very good suggestions to the game. But to talk about my opinions of him vs the game, DM me. 
 
When I introduced the half-orc warrior into the game, the other players were confused with what style she was using because it seemed to be a mix of everything. You later find out that King Thar got ahold of a "Roman" Legionnaires manual and had taken stuff from that and she had learned things not just from her warrior family but from people that were taken prisoner.  This resulted in a very confusing Martial Art for those around her. Instead of quantifying it all in game terms I went to the GM and pointed out HSMA and said "can I do it like this?" with his full permission. As I got a few XP under my (her) belt we discussed extra damage...Will I can't do the extra DC for Martial Arts since I don't have any. BUT I can do extra HTH damage for +4 points the same thing that the extra DC does.  Really freak someone out when you have a half-orc female that can put all 8 lvls into either OCV or DCV. And yes, he did pay heed to the fact that I could put the CSl's into damage as well and limited the # of +HTH levels I could get. 
 

I just accidentally erased a more elaborate post.
 
Sometimes a narrative difference between describing how you barely make a Climb or do it easily.
 
Sometimes tangible. Gambling well means winning more money (and/or doing it more impressively if your intent is to impress). Combat driving is the difference between an unblemished car or a car full of so many dings and bullet holes so that you couldn't drive the car around town or put it into a regular body shop without attracting police attention.

Sometimes you don't. Sometimes it's strictly pass/fail. Other times it's just narrative and up to the GM

Had numerous phone calls today (we didn't go anywhere, and all my friends and family out of town were made well aware eight weeks ago that traveling in from somewhere and coming up to my door was a great way to get hit with a brick and sent packing: my wife and daughter are both high-risk (asthma), and my age and heart problems aren't helping me too much these days, particularly with the drop in fitness by eight months of "go nowhere; do nothing." 
 
Anyway, during the phone calls from old friends, many memories and much celebration came out, including a bit of "group lingo" referring to things from games gone past.  One of those terms led me to this:
 
 
Martial Sneer:  3 pts --------+1/+2-----------Must Follow Presence Attack; Target falls.
 
I didn't really want to add the OCV, but there's a minimum cost of 3, so why not?   Turn an entire team of opponents into Fainting Goats.   
 
 
The term goes way back to a game just about the time 3e was being distributed: Jim had picked up both the boxed set and the perfect bound single-volume printings  (he was like that).  I hadn't picked them up yet (and, it turns out, wouldn't for roughy thirty years).  Anyway, we had a new guy who was what we used to call a Some Timer (not to be confused with a part timer, who was someone who, while not always available, could be counted on to show up when he said he would).  I honestly don't recall his name, but something in the back of my mind says it was Keith, and since it doesn't matter, that's what we're going to call him. 
 
Keith was excited for the game, for the social activity, and for the hoots and hollers of well-played sessions, but Keith was suffered from a chronic crippling shyness that we had spent several sessions working on (mostly me yelling at everyone else before Keith arrived, telling them "Look; he's got comfort problems being around us; we're relative strangers.  Whatever he does, you _love_ it, period.  Talk to him in character, out of character, whatever it takes."-- that sort of thing.
 
Because of his shyness, Keith wasn't really good at the descriptive part of the game, or the interactive part of the game, but he really did try, at least as best he was able.  The bad guy is before the team, Keith's Batman Clone is in the rafters, observing closely while the team moves in.  The boss smiles, laughs, and haughtily announces "you people have the worst timing.  Any other night, I wouldn't have been here, and you would have lived...."  looks back at his business and jerks an extended index finger toward the group, a signal that sends a dozen armed minions out of the shadows toward the team.
 
Keith:  Okay, uhm...  I wanna- can I jump down?  I wanna jump down.
 
Sure.  It's only eighteen feet or so, and you've got Superleap (2e, remember?), so sure; you won't have any problem with that.
 
Okay, I jump down-- ooh!  Can I jump like on one of the bad guys?
 
You can, but remember two things: you can totally kill a guy like that if you break his neck, or paralyze him if you damage his spine.  If you still want to try, I will let you, of course, but remember you're one of the good guys.  Also remember that such a move would technically be a move-through, and you'll take half the damage.
 
Okay....  uhm....   Can I....  Can I jump down, like right in front of one of the guys?
 
Sure.
 
Okay, I hit him!
 
You can't.  You're still in the rafters.
 
Wha--  oh, yeah, okay.  I jump down in front of a guy and hit him.  Like, really hard.
 
Which guy? I nod toward the impromptu map.
 
Okay, the so the big red round dice there...  that's the boss, right?
 
RIght.
 
And this pencil eraser here, that's a bad guy?
 
No; that's a pencil eraser.  Sorry about that.  Brent, pick that up and keep it out of the map!
 
Okay, these two dice on top of each other...?
 
That's a bad guy.  He's standing in front of the boss as a sort of ersatz bodyguard until the team is taken care of.  He's not likely to move from that position unless things go really, really badly for his guys.
 
Okay, that's the guy I want to drop in front of, and as soon as I land, I want to ...   I guess just hit him?
 
Sure.  How?  You've got weapons and your punches and kicks.  Which are you going to use?
 
The club thing-- the baton.  Wait!  Does he look tough?
 
He looks big and tough, and just like the other guys, he seems to be wearing a motorcycle helmet of some sort with a flaming eyeball painted along the crest of it.
 
Okay, I...  I _jump_!  I jump down and I hit this guy, like with the stick, as hard as I can!
 
We roll, the body guard goes down even before he registers what happened.  The boss looks up, shocked by the instant appearance of a hero right in front of him and the crumpling of his henchman.
 
Okay, Keith; you have the higher SPD and the boss is clearly shocked.  What do you do?
 
Okay, I get my club--
 
Someone butted in with "Presence Attack, Keith!  Perfect opportunity for a presence attack!"
 
Okay, yeah-- I do one of those!  Wait-- that's when you scare them, right?  And I can get extra dice if he's already scared, right?
 
Yep.  You've got the appeared-from-nowhere thing going on, the extremely violent action going on, and you dispatched his most capable henchman as if he were a mannequin.  [I tossed him four extra dice].  Add those; you've got eight dice now.  What sort of Presence Attack are you making?
 
??
 
What do you do? What do you say?
 
Oh, I uh..    Okay, I stand there looking cool; I don't even check the guy I just knocked out to be sure.  I turn my head and ....   I look at the boss.
 
You look at him?
 
Yeah. Like _hard_, you know?  I look at him like, really _hard_.
 
 
"Ah, yes!"  Chimes in Jeff, who, while an extremely amusing dry-witted type, had a really hard time remembering the "don't shake his confidence" sessions.  "Nothing more intimidating than a good sneer, really.  It's all the rage in gunfights nowadays...."
 
We all pointedly ignore it; Keith rolls his dice.  easily _half_ of them were sixes.  There was one three and one four.  No ones; no twos.
 
Jeff's eyes bugged for a moment.  "Oh; my bad!  I didn't realize you were using your Martial Sneer......
 
Anyway, Keith managed to get the boss shook up long enough to wrangle him with bolos and cuff him.
 
It was a hilarious moment for all of us, but a great one for Keith.  It also brought "Martial Sneer" into our lexicon.   
 
 
 
 

Had numerous phone calls today (we didn't go anywhere, and all my friends and family out of town were made well aware eight weeks ago that traveling in from somewhere and coming up to my door was a great way to get hit with a brick and sent packing: my wife and daughter are both high-risk (asthma), and my age and heart problems aren't helping me too much these days, particularly with the drop in fitness by eight months of "go nowhere; do nothing." 
 
Anyway, during the phone calls from old friends, many memories and much celebration came out, including a bit of "group lingo" referring to things from games gone past.  One of those terms led me to this:
 
 
Martial Sneer:  3 pts --------+1/+2-----------Must Follow Presence Attack; Target falls.
 
I didn't really want to add the OCV, but there's a minimum cost of 3, so why not?   Turn an entire team of opponents into Fainting Goats.   
 
 
The term goes way back to a game just about the time 3e was being distributed: Jim had picked up both the boxed set and the perfect bound single-volume printings  (he was like that).  I hadn't picked them up yet (and, it turns out, wouldn't for roughy thirty years).  Anyway, we had a new guy who was what we used to call a Some Timer (not to be confused with a part timer, who was someone who, while not always available, could be counted on to show up when he said he would).  I honestly don't recall his name, but something in the back of my mind says it was Keith, and since it doesn't matter, that's what we're going to call him. 
 
Keith was excited for the game, for the social activity, and for the hoots and hollers of well-played sessions, but Keith was suffered from a chronic crippling shyness that we had spent several sessions working on (mostly me yelling at everyone else before Keith arrived, telling them "Look; he's got comfort problems being around us; we're relative strangers.  Whatever he does, you _love_ it, period.  Talk to him in character, out of character, whatever it takes."-- that sort of thing.
 
Because of his shyness, Keith wasn't really good at the descriptive part of the game, or the interactive part of the game, but he really did try, at least as best he was able.  The bad guy is before the team, Keith's Batman Clone is in the rafters, observing closely while the team moves in.  The boss smiles, laughs, and haughtily announces "you people have the worst timing.  Any other night, I wouldn't have been here, and you would have lived...."  looks back at his business and jerks an extended index finger toward the group, a signal that sends a dozen armed minions out of the shadows toward the team.
 
Keith:  Okay, uhm...  I wanna- can I jump down?  I wanna jump down.
 
Sure.  It's only eighteen feet or so, and you've got Superleap (2e, remember?), so sure; you won't have any problem with that.
 
Okay, I jump down-- ooh!  Can I jump like on one of the bad guys?
 
You can, but remember two things: you can totally kill a guy like that if you break his neck, or paralyze him if you damage his spine.  If you still want to try, I will let you, of course, but remember you're one of the good guys.  Also remember that such a move would technically be a move-through, and you'll take half the damage.
 
Okay....  uhm....   Can I....  Can I jump down, like right in front of one of the guys?
 
Sure.
 
Okay, I hit him!
 
You can't.  You're still in the rafters.
 
Wha--  oh, yeah, okay.  I jump down in front of a guy and hit him.  Like, really hard.
 
Which guy? I nod toward the impromptu map.
 
Okay, the so the big red round dice there...  that's the boss, right?
 
RIght.
 
And this pencil eraser here, that's a bad guy?
 
No; that's a pencil eraser.  Sorry about that.  Brent, pick that up and keep it out of the map!
 
Okay, these two dice on top of each other...?
 
That's a bad guy.  He's standing in front of the boss as a sort of ersatz bodyguard until the team is taken care of.  He's not likely to move from that position unless things go really, really badly for his guys.
 
Okay, that's the guy I want to drop in front of, and as soon as I land, I want to ...   I guess just hit him?
 
Sure.  How?  You've got weapons and your punches and kicks.  Which are you going to use?
 
The club thing-- the baton.  Wait!  Does he look tough?
 
He looks big and tough, and just like the other guys, he seems to be wearing a motorcycle helmet of some sort with a flaming eyeball painted along the crest of it.
 
Okay, I...  I _jump_!  I jump down and I hit this guy, like with the stick, as hard as I can!
 
We roll, the body guard goes down even before he registers what happened.  The boss looks up, shocked by the instant appearance of a hero right in front of him and the crumpling of his henchman.
 
Okay, Keith; you have the higher SPD and the boss is clearly shocked.  What do you do?
 
Okay, I get my club--
 
Someone butted in with "Presence Attack, Keith!  Perfect opportunity for a presence attack!"
 
Okay, yeah-- I do one of those!  Wait-- that's when you scare them, right?  And I can get extra dice if he's already scared, right?
 
Yep.  You've got the appeared-from-nowhere thing going on, the extremely violent action going on, and you dispatched his most capable henchman as if he were a mannequin.  [I tossed him four extra dice].  Add those; you've got eight dice now.  What sort of Presence Attack are you making?
 
??
 
What do you do? What do you say?
 
Oh, I uh..    Okay, I stand there looking cool; I don't even check the guy I just knocked out to be sure.  I turn my head and ....   I look at the boss.
 
You look at him?
 
Yeah. Like _hard_, you know?  I look at him like, really _hard_.
 
 
"Ah, yes!"  Chimes in Jeff, who, while an extremely amusing dry-witted type, had a really hard time remembering the "don't shake his confidence" sessions.  "Nothing more intimidating than a good sneer, really.  It's all the rage in gunfights nowadays...."
 
We all pointedly ignore it; Keith rolls his dice.  easily _half_ of them were sixes.  There was one three and one four.  No ones; no twos.
 
Jeff's eyes bugged for a moment.  "Oh; my bad!  I didn't realize you were using your Martial Sneer......
 
Anyway, Keith managed to get the boss shook up long enough to wrangle him with bolos and cuff him.
 
It was a hilarious moment for all of us, but a great one for Keith.  It also brought "Martial Sneer" into our lexicon.   
 
 
 
 

Had numerous phone calls today (we didn't go anywhere, and all my friends and family out of town were made well aware eight weeks ago that traveling in from somewhere and coming up to my door was a great way to get hit with a brick and sent packing: my wife and daughter are both high-risk (asthma), and my age and heart problems aren't helping me too much these days, particularly with the drop in fitness by eight months of "go nowhere; do nothing." 
 
Anyway, during the phone calls from old friends, many memories and much celebration came out, including a bit of "group lingo" referring to things from games gone past.  One of those terms led me to this:
 
 
Martial Sneer:  3 pts --------+1/+2-----------Must Follow Presence Attack; Target falls.
 
I didn't really want to add the OCV, but there's a minimum cost of 3, so why not?   Turn an entire team of opponents into Fainting Goats.   
 
 
The term goes way back to a game just about the time 3e was being distributed: Jim had picked up both the boxed set and the perfect bound single-volume printings  (he was like that).  I hadn't picked them up yet (and, it turns out, wouldn't for roughy thirty years).  Anyway, we had a new guy who was what we used to call a Some Timer (not to be confused with a part timer, who was someone who, while not always available, could be counted on to show up when he said he would).  I honestly don't recall his name, but something in the back of my mind says it was Keith, and since it doesn't matter, that's what we're going to call him. 
 
Keith was excited for the game, for the social activity, and for the hoots and hollers of well-played sessions, but Keith was suffered from a chronic crippling shyness that we had spent several sessions working on (mostly me yelling at everyone else before Keith arrived, telling them "Look; he's got comfort problems being around us; we're relative strangers.  Whatever he does, you _love_ it, period.  Talk to him in character, out of character, whatever it takes."-- that sort of thing.
 
Because of his shyness, Keith wasn't really good at the descriptive part of the game, or the interactive part of the game, but he really did try, at least as best he was able.  The bad guy is before the team, Keith's Batman Clone is in the rafters, observing closely while the team moves in.  The boss smiles, laughs, and haughtily announces "you people have the worst timing.  Any other night, I wouldn't have been here, and you would have lived...."  looks back at his business and jerks an extended index finger toward the group, a signal that sends a dozen armed minions out of the shadows toward the team.
 
Keith:  Okay, uhm...  I wanna- can I jump down?  I wanna jump down.
 
Sure.  It's only eighteen feet or so, and you've got Superleap (2e, remember?), so sure; you won't have any problem with that.
 
Okay, I jump down-- ooh!  Can I jump like on one of the bad guys?
 
You can, but remember two things: you can totally kill a guy like that if you break his neck, or paralyze him if you damage his spine.  If you still want to try, I will let you, of course, but remember you're one of the good guys.  Also remember that such a move would technically be a move-through, and you'll take half the damage.
 
Okay....  uhm....   Can I....  Can I jump down, like right in front of one of the guys?
 
Sure.
 
Okay, I hit him!
 
You can't.  You're still in the rafters.
 
Wha--  oh, yeah, okay.  I jump down in front of a guy and hit him.  Like, really hard.
 
Which guy? I nod toward the impromptu map.
 
Okay, the so the big red round dice there...  that's the boss, right?
 
RIght.
 
And this pencil eraser here, that's a bad guy?
 
No; that's a pencil eraser.  Sorry about that.  Brent, pick that up and keep it out of the map!
 
Okay, these two dice on top of each other...?
 
That's a bad guy.  He's standing in front of the boss as a sort of ersatz bodyguard until the team is taken care of.  He's not likely to move from that position unless things go really, really badly for his guys.
 
Okay, that's the guy I want to drop in front of, and as soon as I land, I want to ...   I guess just hit him?
 
Sure.  How?  You've got weapons and your punches and kicks.  Which are you going to use?
 
The club thing-- the baton.  Wait!  Does he look tough?
 
He looks big and tough, and just like the other guys, he seems to be wearing a motorcycle helmet of some sort with a flaming eyeball painted along the crest of it.
 
Okay, I...  I _jump_!  I jump down and I hit this guy, like with the stick, as hard as I can!
 
We roll, the body guard goes down even before he registers what happened.  The boss looks up, shocked by the instant appearance of a hero right in front of him and the crumpling of his henchman.
 
Okay, Keith; you have the higher SPD and the boss is clearly shocked.  What do you do?
 
Okay, I get my club--
 
Someone butted in with "Presence Attack, Keith!  Perfect opportunity for a presence attack!"
 
Okay, yeah-- I do one of those!  Wait-- that's when you scare them, right?  And I can get extra dice if he's already scared, right?
 
Yep.  You've got the appeared-from-nowhere thing going on, the extremely violent action going on, and you dispatched his most capable henchman as if he were a mannequin.  [I tossed him four extra dice].  Add those; you've got eight dice now.  What sort of Presence Attack are you making?
 
??
 
What do you do? What do you say?
 
Oh, I uh..    Okay, I stand there looking cool; I don't even check the guy I just knocked out to be sure.  I turn my head and ....   I look at the boss.
 
You look at him?
 
Yeah. Like _hard_, you know?  I look at him like, really _hard_.
 
 
"Ah, yes!"  Chimes in Jeff, who, while an extremely amusing dry-witted type, had a really hard time remembering the "don't shake his confidence" sessions.  "Nothing more intimidating than a good sneer, really.  It's all the rage in gunfights nowadays...."
 
We all pointedly ignore it; Keith rolls his dice.  easily _half_ of them were sixes.  There was one three and one four.  No ones; no twos.
 
Jeff's eyes bugged for a moment.  "Oh; my bad!  I didn't realize you were using your Martial Sneer......
 
Anyway, Keith managed to get the boss shook up long enough to wrangle him with bolos and cuff him.
 
It was a hilarious moment for all of us, but a great one for Keith.  It also brought "Martial Sneer" into our lexicon.   
 
 
 
 

As a funny aside, I just found an old Hero I made named Black Cat ( yes this was for Supers). His martial art was called Catfighting 😂.

Be fair:
 
I never suggested getting rid of them.
 
I suggested they were outliers that didn't belong in the main rules set.  Supplement?  Fine.  Main rules?  More stuff to confuse the new guys, and that, given the tendency in recent editions to fold everything into some version of a larger idea, sticks out like a dime on a dog's nose as being something that is clearly just a singular use of a larger thing-- in this case, Skill Levels.
 
Grab + Skill levels = Martial Grab.
 
Kick + Skill levels = martial Kick.
 
The big sticker seems to be "target falls" for most people, but really-- if I throw a guy, or trip a guy, are you _really_ going to rule that he doesn't fall because it doesn't say "Martial" in the description?  I trip a guy who gets tripped and doesn't fall?
 
The whole thing is based on a Lark one very popular (and rightfully so; he was quite talented, creatively) third-party writer came up with for a campaign, wrote up a book for creating your own similar campaign, and now it's rules?   Autoduel Champions is just as legitimate (shudder)-- same guy, even.   Why are we not using Car Wars for building vehicles?    
 
Okay, that last one is kidding. 
 
If you like it, enjoy it.  I'm not going to tell you you're wrong.
 
But "here's a handful of skill levels; yell something anime-esque when you assign them" is every bit as legitimate, and for my money, far simpler and more enjoyable.
 
 
 
 

You make excellent points, as always, Doc, and I do _not_ claim that your concerns are invalid.
 
 
I _do_ maintain, however, that these concerns are not unique for shapeshift-as-special-effect.
 
I have seen very, _very_ few fire-themed characters who have gone out of their way to purchase a power that specifically lets them start fires, controlled or otherwise, of even light a cigarette.  I have seen only _one_ in forty years that bought Change Environment to be able to use his fire powers to use himself as a sort of torch-- lighting up dark areas.
 
Now I _have_ seen GMs that allow this (for the most part, I am one of them.  Not always, but usually).  I have let "Chick with ice powers" use her powers to lower another character's core temperature enough to slow their "rate of death" while being transported for medical care.  This was _nowhere_ on the character sheet, but I allowed it.
 
I have _also_ seen GMs who flat-out _won't_ allow it: You didn't build it; you didn't buy it; you can't do it.  Honestly, I have seen a massive upswing in this sort of GM since the addition of the "Power tricks" Skill (I was one of the opponents of that, because I kept thinking "a lot of people are going to get shafted on really novel ideas because they didn't buy this Skill, even though it's something we used to just _let_ people do").
 
And there are camps everywhere in between:  Do you have Power Skill?  Okay, then I will let you try this.
 
Or (with or without Power Skill): okay, you can do it this time, but I want you to put at least one EP per session toward buying a more specifically-tailored power to do it if you ever want to do it again.
 
All those things.  I'm willing to be you have, too.
 
They are _all_ completely correct.  Some are more permissive; some more exclusionist; some more compromise-oriented (I can't say "compromising" with a straight face anymore)-- you know you have made a perfect compromise when everyone is equally unhappy.     But they are all correct.  It's up to the sort of game you want to run.
 
 
 
 
So what sort of GM are you?  Can Fire Guy light a cigar?  Can The Electrocutioner use his abilities as an ersatz defibrillator?  Can what-was-her-name-with-the-alien-choker-that-gave-her-sonic-powers use her super scream to match some sort of resonance pattern and solve a unique puzzle?  Can Spiderman use his webbing to make a parachute and jump from a plane?
 
Doesn't matter if you need power skill or not, or if you allow it every time or not-- it's a matter of if you _would_ allow, at least _once_, under ridiculously extenuating circumstances-- is there a set of circumstances under which you see yourself allowing it?  Or is it a straight up "no?"  You didn't buy it; you don't have it.
 
Odds are you have "yes-ed" at least once to something and you have "no-ed" at least once to something similar.
 
And none of these involve shape shifting.  You still have to make a judgement call; you still have to deal with players being creative--  I don't say "sneaky" or "sly" because I don't think the majority of it is intentionally trying to "get something for free;"  I suspect the bulk of it is creative people trying to find a solution with the tools they have at hand.  But because of that, you are going to have to make these judgment calls _all the time_.  That's why GM is a vital role:  you are not just "the guy who knows the rules best" or "the guy who tells cool stories," but also the guy who has to decide how far is too far; what's plausible and what isn't-- and more importantly, to what degree, how often, and why.  Adding a special power specifically to be seen / heard / felt /tasted / smelled as a certain thing is _not_ going to change that, particularly when there are _still_ ways to demonstrate that this shape shift is _not_ actually a perfect "turned into something."
 
I am going to assume that changing shapes doesn't come up in every single campaign you're involved in.  Are those campaigns without shapeshifting completely free of the GM making judgment calls on the actions or suggestions of clever players?
 
 
 
 
What chance does the research time at Gamma Research Tech have to identify that the Hulk is actually Bruce Banner?   I think you may have switched gears here and moved directly to Multiform, in which case there is _zero_ chance, unless the observer is aware quite specifically that the good Captain has these two specific forms.  The Multiform rules specifically state that you become something / someone else.  You don't look / taste / sound / feel / smell like someone or something else; you actually _are_ something else.  Much like my chance to determine that an actual dog is not an actual dog is _zero_ because an actual dog _is_ an _actual dog_.  Multiform does that.
 
But to cover all the bases-- modern shape shift does _not_ do that.  So your odds are going to depend on what your PER modifiers are, what the simulated shape shift penalty modifiers are, and what senses you are using to detect and if they have bought an appropriate simulated shape shift to deceive that sense-- or at least apply some penalties to it.  Or roll a 3 on a PER check with pretty much _any_ sense.  Whatever.
 
 
And third base (yay!  I'm boobies!     )  
 
If you're doing it old-school, unless you bought Disguise or Stealth or Concealment or even-- perhaps with a penalty-- Acting, well....   You are going to be a sparrow, but you are going to be an obvious "what the hell is wrong with that sparrow?!" kind of sparrow.  
 
Look at it this way:  I am using Flight and I want to be a sparrow.  Poof!  I'm a sparrow.  PER checks to find me are unchanged from when I was a person.  
 
I am using Shrinking and I want to be a sparrow.  PER checks are modified by my Shrinking.  I can't fly.
 
Wait-- I am using Flight and Shrinking, and I want to be a sparrow.  I am now flying around, with PER checks against me modified by my shrinking, but if I _am_ spotted, there's going to be "something not quite right here."  So I add Disguise (the way we used to build the Mystique clones, and Chameleon clones, way back when-- or now, if you're me) and maybe Acting?  maybe just a KS: habits of sparrows."  Actually, I like that a lot.  Now I've got some skill rolls to, and the odds are good I am going to be a very convincing "just another sparrow."
 
_Again_---  the problem comes from the ideas that grow from over-building.  Just because my special effect for flying is turning into a bird (sorry; I've type 'sparrow' too many times now), that's all it is:  the special effect for flying.  It doesn't _automatically_ give me other abilities that _I don't have_.  (presumably, sparrows do something other than fly and crap on things.)
 
 
 
Using sparrow one more time:  I look like I'm flying.  if you're close enough, I probably _sound_ like I'm flying-- little floopity wing-beats and my heart thumping painfully in my chest while I gasp "Holy *$$%! don't look down!  don't look down!!"  My altitude and my flight speed can be measured.  I...  taste like I am flying?  I probably feel like I am flying, since you'd have to reach really high in order to actually touch me.  How does Superman taste when he's flying?  Or smell?  Sight and possibly sound; that about covers it.  Or if either of us should stop flying directly overhead, you could feel us crash down on top of you (in which case, you better hope it's the sparrow     )
 
Let's stop there, because I am pretty certain you already know the answer to this anyway, and while we might be having a lot of fun picking it apart, i'm sure we've already alienated the audience, so we'll just move on and hope they forgive us.  
 
 
 
If Antman is trapped in a cage, can Antman escape by becoming the gigantic version of himself he was in that movie?  (who knew ants got so damned BIG?!)
 
 
 
Or does the cage prevent that happening?
 
_That's_ the question.  That is _the_ question.  You are focusing on the special effect and _not_ the mechanic.  if being a different shape makes it harder to visualize, apply the mechanics to something else more comfortable, or just look at the mechanics themselves:
 
If someone who is using Shrinking is trapped in a cage, can they escape it by using Growth?
 
However you answer _that_ question, that's the answer to the situation every single time, no matter what the SFX are.
 
 
 
 
Oh yes; I totally get that.  And I am perfectly happy to discuss it with you at whatever length you might want, so long as you are willing to accept my time constraints.  
 
As always, it's been a pleasure, Sir.   
 

 
 

First and foremost:
 
I know Ninja-Bear gets it, because this is fast becoming our "favorite" chestnut (the value of the martial arts rules, I mean)   .    I want to take just a minute to point out that the following questions and illustrations are _not_ sarcastic, _not_ meant to be barbs, jabs, or pokes, and are _not_ meant to be insulting.  Bear with me; I have reasons:  
 
1) the degradation of the way humans-- at least in english-speaking countries; I don't know enough of any other language to evaluate what I see from them-- treat and interact with each other has made all of those things so common as cause a real, honest-to-God ache in my heart.
 
2) the degradation of social values that has reached the point that sarcasm has come to be considered a mark of intelligence, and is reached for above all other conversational comments.  Frankly, this disgusts me.  Sarcasm has done a lot of damage to a lot of people over the years, yet the offenders will continue to do it, oblivious to the damage, because society rewards them "he's _so_ intelligent!"  Yes: insulting things has become a sign of intelligence.  Want to look smart?  Read celebrity gossip, watch fictional TV shows and make constant references, and insult everything.  I can't express how much this saddens me, and I want to state that what you read below may seem to be sarcastic in places (I don't know yet; I haven't written it.        )   many years ago, I destroyed a relationship that was very valuable to me simply by being "funny:" that is, sarcastic.  I have never been able to regain fully the trust or the warmth of that person and that relationship, respectively.  From that point on, I have gone to great lengths to eliminate sarcasm from my conversational repertoire, and reserve it only for those moments non-targeted, obvious jokes.  Still, I work at not doing that, either.
 
3) Perhaps most importantly:
there is at least one member of this board who is held in extremely high regard whose entire disagreement "technique" is to sarcastically insult the person or people with whom he disagrees.  He gets away with it constantly, as his visits are rare in recent years, and as I said, he is, for whatever reason, held in high standing.  I suspect it's a combination of "Sarcasm = Intelligence" combined with "if I cheer for him, I won't be next."  Either way, he turned the insult gun toward me for the-- fourth?  Tenth?  No matter-- time some while back, and I got myself a demerit for refusing to accept being insulted.   I do _not_ want anyone else to feel that they are in the position of being insulted by me, or being motivated to speak out against me as a bully or overtly disrespectful.  That is to say, I don't want anyone here getting their own demerit because they felt they had to speak up against a slight that I am now promising you _will not be there_. 
 
 
 
To the meat of things:
 
From Ninja HERO 4e:
 
Flying Tackle:......... 3 pts.......... 0/-1............  +v/5, You fall, Target falls, Full Move
Grappling Throw.....3 pts............0/+2........... +v/5, Target Falls, Must Follow Grab
Killing Throw:..........5 pts..........-2/0............. Strike +2d6, Target falls
Legsweep: ..............3 pts.........+2/-1.............Strike +1d6, Target falls
Martial Throw..........3 pts...........0/+1.............+v/5, Target falls
 
 
Sacrifice Throw.......3 pts..........+2/+1...........Strike, You fall, Target falls
Takedown................3 pts...........+1/+1...........Strike, Target falls
 
Those last two in particular:
 
Remove "You fall" and one skill level, and it's become Takedown.  It's become Takedown right to the cost, demonstrating that "you fall" is worth one bonus 3pt Skill level.  Strike is free to anyone with STR.  Takedown has no time penalty (it's a half-phase, like the other Strike-based maneuvers).
 
The idea that for three points and yelling "Hi-yah!" I can get two Skill Levels _and_ "Target Falls" suggests to me that "Target Falls" is _not_ something that has to be bought.  I know: the Throw element is listed as costing one point.  One point.  Is that even a Skill Level?
 
Go to Grappling Throw.  Three points again, two Skill Levels, and  the one-point Target Falls.  "Must Follow Grab" is a limitation that rebates 2 pts; I'd suggest that not only does it wash the 1-pt cost of the bonus damage (which makes this thing a Move-By: STR damage plus velocity/5 damage is a Move-By), but spends the unaccounted-for remaining point on a mystery defense that protects you from the blowback of your move-by maneuver.
 
I know: it doesn't say Move By in the text, but +v/5 is a move-by, which suffers from a total of -4 Skill levels, yet those four skill levels are just given away when the move becomes "Martial."
 
So Martial Throw is, in reality, a Move By with +2 Skill Levels set into OCV and +3 Skill Levels set into DCV, the impossible-without-Martial-Arts Target Falls element, and the mysterious unnamed on-point element that protects the user from taking a piece of that damage as with any other Move By.  Five Skill levels, a downed opponent, and a defense totally worth looking into for your favorite speedster or brick, all for 3 pts.
 
We can skip picking them apart, though, and go right to the roll-your-own section, where we see that +v/5 costs 1pt and +1 DCV costs 1 pts. and Target Falls is a mere point.  One point.
 
"Takedown backs this up:   Well, bonus OCV isn't listed directly, but "NND OCV" is (I have always assumed that's a typo; I accept that I may be wrong, and that "NND OCV" is something that I just can't figure out) listed at +1 pt, DCV is listed at +1 pt.  That leaves both one point and Target Falls, is in line with what we've seen so far.
 
Sacrifice Throw is three points, contains three points worth of CV, but it still has Target Falls.  It also has You Fall, which rebates two points, and the two wash each other out. Except that they don't.  Look at Grappling Throw:
 
Grappling Throw gets weird, though: for three points you get two points of DCV and the one-point v/5.  You still get Target Falls, which must wash with Must Follow Grab....   which is _two_ "rebated" points, so now "Target Falls" is worth _two_ points?
 
 
We can do this over and over (well, we can't.  I wanted to go through all three editions, but the wife says I've ten minutes to finish up and help her in the kitchen, so let me skip right to the other problem with the idea that you have to buy Martial Arts to knock someone down)
 
 
The biggest problem I have with the idea that you must buy a Martial Maneuver to knock someone over is Ninja HERO was a 4e book.  We had to go back and re-play an entire _decade_ worth of adventures because until then we had been playing wrong, not realizing that we were completely unable to knock people down!     
 
No; seriously, though:  does anyone actually play the game this way?  Is it impossible in anyone's game to knock someone over without buying the element?  If I direct a 3d6 kick at an opponent's knee and succeed, will he simply not fall?  If I direct a 2-1/2d6 KA: sword with an STR Bonus of 1D6 at his knee, is there a GM who will seriously rule that he just Black Knights me, standing there on his one remaining leg, taunting me?  Or will he _fall down_?  If I declare that my STR 17 grappling goon has opted to take his grabbed hundred-and-thirty pound opponent and do a Body Slam, is there a GM-- not just on the board, but on the planet-- who is going to rule that my goon will _miss the floor_ because he does not have Martial Arts?  If my teammate has successfully CON-Stunned an opponent, and for whatever reason he is still standing, is it impossible for me to knock him down?  I don't have any martial arts.
 
 
Anyway, I'd love to break this down for the next two editions-- we know that there were some changes here and there-- but my time is nearly up.
 
 
Point is, "Strategic value" or no, people can be knocked down.  Hell, they fall down all the time without help from anything but a smart phone.
 
 
 

First and foremost:
 
I know Ninja-Bear gets it, because this is fast becoming our "favorite" chestnut (the value of the martial arts rules, I mean)   .    I want to take just a minute to point out that the following questions and illustrations are _not_ sarcastic, _not_ meant to be barbs, jabs, or pokes, and are _not_ meant to be insulting.  Bear with me; I have reasons:  
 
1) the degradation of the way humans-- at least in english-speaking countries; I don't know enough of any other language to evaluate what I see from them-- treat and interact with each other has made all of those things so common as cause a real, honest-to-God ache in my heart.
 
2) the degradation of social values that has reached the point that sarcasm has come to be considered a mark of intelligence, and is reached for above all other conversational comments.  Frankly, this disgusts me.  Sarcasm has done a lot of damage to a lot of people over the years, yet the offenders will continue to do it, oblivious to the damage, because society rewards them "he's _so_ intelligent!"  Yes: insulting things has become a sign of intelligence.  Want to look smart?  Read celebrity gossip, watch fictional TV shows and make constant references, and insult everything.  I can't express how much this saddens me, and I want to state that what you read below may seem to be sarcastic in places (I don't know yet; I haven't written it.        )   many years ago, I destroyed a relationship that was very valuable to me simply by being "funny:" that is, sarcastic.  I have never been able to regain fully the trust or the warmth of that person and that relationship, respectively.  From that point on, I have gone to great lengths to eliminate sarcasm from my conversational repertoire, and reserve it only for those moments non-targeted, obvious jokes.  Still, I work at not doing that, either.
 
3) Perhaps most importantly:
there is at least one member of this board who is held in extremely high regard whose entire disagreement "technique" is to sarcastically insult the person or people with whom he disagrees.  He gets away with it constantly, as his visits are rare in recent years, and as I said, he is, for whatever reason, held in high standing.  I suspect it's a combination of "Sarcasm = Intelligence" combined with "if I cheer for him, I won't be next."  Either way, he turned the insult gun toward me for the-- fourth?  Tenth?  No matter-- time some while back, and I got myself a demerit for refusing to accept being insulted.   I do _not_ want anyone else to feel that they are in the position of being insulted by me, or being motivated to speak out against me as a bully or overtly disrespectful.  That is to say, I don't want anyone here getting their own demerit because they felt they had to speak up against a slight that I am now promising you _will not be there_. 
 
 
 
To the meat of things:
 
From Ninja HERO 4e:
 
Flying Tackle:......... 3 pts.......... 0/-1............  +v/5, You fall, Target falls, Full Move
Grappling Throw.....3 pts............0/+2........... +v/5, Target Falls, Must Follow Grab
Killing Throw:..........5 pts..........-2/0............. Strike +2d6, Target falls
Legsweep: ..............3 pts.........+2/-1.............Strike +1d6, Target falls
Martial Throw..........3 pts...........0/+1.............+v/5, Target falls
 
 
Sacrifice Throw.......3 pts..........+2/+1...........Strike, You fall, Target falls
Takedown................3 pts...........+1/+1...........Strike, Target falls
 
Those last two in particular:
 
Remove "You fall" and one skill level, and it's become Takedown.  It's become Takedown right to the cost, demonstrating that "you fall" is worth one bonus 3pt Skill level.  Strike is free to anyone with STR.  Takedown has no time penalty (it's a half-phase, like the other Strike-based maneuvers).
 
The idea that for three points and yelling "Hi-yah!" I can get two Skill Levels _and_ "Target Falls" suggests to me that "Target Falls" is _not_ something that has to be bought.  I know: the Throw element is listed as costing one point.  One point.  Is that even a Skill Level?
 
Go to Grappling Throw.  Three points again, two Skill Levels, and  the one-point Target Falls.  "Must Follow Grab" is a limitation that rebates 2 pts; I'd suggest that not only does it wash the 1-pt cost of the bonus damage (which makes this thing a Move-By: STR damage plus velocity/5 damage is a Move-By), but spends the unaccounted-for remaining point on a mystery defense that protects you from the blowback of your move-by maneuver.
 
I know: it doesn't say Move By in the text, but +v/5 is a move-by, which suffers from a total of -4 Skill levels, yet those four skill levels are just given away when the move becomes "Martial."
 
So Martial Throw is, in reality, a Move By with +2 Skill Levels set into OCV and +3 Skill Levels set into DCV, the impossible-without-Martial-Arts Target Falls element, and the mysterious unnamed on-point element that protects the user from taking a piece of that damage as with any other Move By.  Five Skill levels, a downed opponent, and a defense totally worth looking into for your favorite speedster or brick, all for 3 pts.
 
We can skip picking them apart, though, and go right to the roll-your-own section, where we see that +v/5 costs 1pt and +1 DCV costs 1 pts. and Target Falls is a mere point.  One point.
 
"Takedown backs this up:   Well, bonus OCV isn't listed directly, but "NND OCV" is (I have always assumed that's a typo; I accept that I may be wrong, and that "NND OCV" is something that I just can't figure out) listed at +1 pt, DCV is listed at +1 pt.  That leaves both one point and Target Falls, is in line with what we've seen so far.
 
Sacrifice Throw is three points, contains three points worth of CV, but it still has Target Falls.  It also has You Fall, which rebates two points, and the two wash each other out. Except that they don't.  Look at Grappling Throw:
 
Grappling Throw gets weird, though: for three points you get two points of DCV and the one-point v/5.  You still get Target Falls, which must wash with Must Follow Grab....   which is _two_ "rebated" points, so now "Target Falls" is worth _two_ points?
 
 
We can do this over and over (well, we can't.  I wanted to go through all three editions, but the wife says I've ten minutes to finish up and help her in the kitchen, so let me skip right to the other problem with the idea that you have to buy Martial Arts to knock someone down)
 
 
The biggest problem I have with the idea that you must buy a Martial Maneuver to knock someone over is Ninja HERO was a 4e book.  We had to go back and re-play an entire _decade_ worth of adventures because until then we had been playing wrong, not realizing that we were completely unable to knock people down!     
 
No; seriously, though:  does anyone actually play the game this way?  Is it impossible in anyone's game to knock someone over without buying the element?  If I direct a 3d6 kick at an opponent's knee and succeed, will he simply not fall?  If I direct a 2-1/2d6 KA: sword with an STR Bonus of 1D6 at his knee, is there a GM who will seriously rule that he just Black Knights me, standing there on his one remaining leg, taunting me?  Or will he _fall down_?  If I declare that my STR 17 grappling goon has opted to take his grabbed hundred-and-thirty pound opponent and do a Body Slam, is there a GM-- not just on the board, but on the planet-- who is going to rule that my goon will _miss the floor_ because he does not have Martial Arts?  If my teammate has successfully CON-Stunned an opponent, and for whatever reason he is still standing, is it impossible for me to knock him down?  I don't have any martial arts.
 
 
Anyway, I'd love to break this down for the next two editions-- we know that there were some changes here and there-- but my time is nearly up.
 
 
Point is, "Strategic value" or no, people can be knocked down.  Hell, they fall down all the time without help from anything but a smart phone.
 
 
 

Yeah, that whole "I want to Martial Throw Cthulhu" thing is a real drag.

And to be fair, I still take umbrage. 😜 Btw I should’ve made clear I have no problem with skill levels as martial arts.

I’m thinking of using DN instead of buying some sort of other defense power: only for Move by/Thru damage. The Speedster is going to have some sort of Kinetic (force field) too. 
Is that how Speedster were portrayed in the comics? 

Well this is all sounding very familiar....
 
 

 
 

 
 
Not an insult, folks; not a disparagement.  
 
I promise.   
 
 
It's what I've advocated for years, and usually get told I'm doing it wrong.   It's the Batman martial art:  I am a master of fifteen martial arts styles, and am proficient in eight more.
 
Assign your skill levels and yell "Hi-ya!"
 
 
Martial Arts.
 
 

Hearldry could also be a language or a knowledge skill. High Society as a complimentary roll. 

@Duke BushidoI’ve been thinking about using Damage Negation for Move Bys/Thrus. 

Finally!
 
Well, it's not the nice big clear one I was looking for, but it's a smaller lo-rez copy of it.
 
At any rate, this was something I found invaluable when we played lots of westerns, especially when the party travelled around a lot.
 
 
Hope it helps.
 

Finally!
 
Well, it's not the nice big clear one I was looking for, but it's a smaller lo-rez copy of it.
 
At any rate, this was something I found invaluable when we played lots of westerns, especially when the party travelled around a lot.
 
 
Hope it helps.