Gauntlet

17 minutes ago, Rich McGee said:

Not 100% sure what you mean by "video game players" (it may sound more dismissive than intended) but there are some rule systems that are more enjoyable for combat-heavy "tactical puzzle" gaming than others.

For me personally it might have been a bit dismissive but I realize that just because I feel something is dismissive it doesn't mean that it actually is. For a Video Game player, they like tactics and combat. They aren't as into the general roleplay in between combats.

1 hour ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

The kind of players I like to have are the ones who show up on time and keep coming back for a long term campaign.

In addition to what you stated, if they are not going to be able to make it, please let me know so I can run the game appropriately. 

I would assume that most GMs would prefer Storyline players verse Video Game players, but that is just me. It is quite possible that the GM might enjoy good combats so Video Game players may be more to his/her liking. Any GMs out there have any comments as to what type of players they like to have?

I have found that even in Champions games when you start adding all the extra combat additions such as Hit Locations, Disabled, Impaired, Critical Hits, Call Shots, and the like, even high defense Bricks find that they have to pay attention to what they are doing, especially if they are of the typical variety of having low DEX and SPEED. Had them fighting the IHA and when the Sniper put a Armor Piercing Round through the head of their big bad brick removing him from the combat from just short of 500 hexes away meant that every character went for cover to try to look for the sniper. All of this was while in combat with a bunch of troops disguised as VIPER Agents. Got nasty real quick, and they were 450 point characters.

Of course, a ton of it depends on your players. Do you have Storyline Players or Video Game Players?

50 minutes ago, tkdguy said:

Rule Zero is the main reason I hardly ever run a game anymore. I suggest something different to my friends, and they're not interested. They want same old same old, but I'm bored stiff with same old same old. We also disagree in genres. I'm not interested in superheroes; they don't like comedy or political intrigue. I'll happily play in a game they run, but they don't want to be the GM. So it all falls apart before anything ever starts.

Strange, I love to put comedy, intrigue, suspense, and even sometimes horror into my Champions games. Having them just some superheroes fighting some supervillains gets pretty boring rather fast.

1 hour ago, Cancer said:

Genres not already named ... I may be able to work with if I am allowed slapstick.

You may love a STUPID Campaign, otherwise known as...

Super

Twirps

Undertaking

Personally 

Injurious

Duties

It is a Superhero based game but is like The Tick. One of the major rule changes in it is that characters do not have a BODY Characteristic, so yes, they cannot die. And of course getting the GM and other Players to laugh is how you gain XP.

21 minutes ago, Duke Bushido said:

But the game isnt killing itself.  It is being killed by the same thing that is killing (has killed, according to many) comic books:

On thing I do think that Hero does well, is allowing all of their earlier versions be available and even supported. If you do have a group of new players, you could even have your game utilize an earlier version that may be a bit simpler. Then in the future, go to a newer version if you feel it is necessary, or stay with the older one, who cares as long as you and your players are having fun. 

And to add, the problem I see with invisibility is what to be invisible to. So does it mean that if you have invisibility to sight, does that mean that someone who can attack with hearing can hit you? Also, just because you are fast should it mean that you are also immune to mental attacks?

Not sure if a conversation like this has been done before but I thought it would be a good idea to have a discussion as to what are the best ways to start a new campaign. It of course does not matter what type of campaign, Superheroes, Fantasy, Horror, Spy, Space, whatever, but what should the creator of the campaign look into so that his game has a good start.

My first thought is that the GM should make sure that the players he has available are interested in the type of game he is looking to start. And if not, could it still go on with some minor changes or is he/she completely off the mark.

But I believe we are forgetting, Champions is a ROLE-PLAYING Game, not a Comic or TV show or Movie. The purpose of it is to have fun, making a story is just a portion of having fun. While The Flash may be completely unhittable to the point that even a Phalanx system that shoots a 1000 rounds a second cannot hit him, that is not something you would have in a game. Characters have to have vulnerabilities and be able to be hit and knocked out, and even possibly killed. Without this what is the point of playing if there is no chance of losing.

4 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

One comic I particularly liked was Wally feeling a pressure against the back of his neck.  Then he noticed that everyone in the movie theater, and the movie, were frozen.  He'd had someone shoot him, the bullet touched him, and he went into super speed mode defensively, so fast everything was frozen.

 

And Wally was never as powerful as Barry.  No, the Flash shouldn't ever be hit, but its very difficult to find a challenge for someone as powerful as DC makes their heroes.  So their powers vary wildly between comic to comic and even page to page in the same comic.  That happened constantly in the Flash TV show, he was either faster than a bullet or wasn't, depending on what the scene required.  Drove me nuts.

Well if you want to state that your speedster has no way of being hit by a bullet (even with a 3 with games that consider 3 to always hit and 18 always miss), then give him Desolification (0 END, Continuous, Always On, Not Through Barriers, not when unconscious, and possible not when stunned) with the special effect that he always dodges the attack. That way there is no chance at all for the attack to hit him.

Now you might mention what about Effects Desolid. I usually will not allow that advantage while at the same time making Desolification have a realistic effect that can affect it. In the case of a speedster's Desolification the way to affect him/her would be Area Effect or Mental Attacks.

But all in all, it depends on the power level of your characters. Should they be WORLD OR EVEN GALAXY PROTECTING HEROES, their power level will probably make it rather easy for them to have such things as they most likely will be over 800 points. But should you have your characters be kids just learning their power, then definitely not as they will probably be only 300 points and many times even lower.

All in All I believe that Desolification will be less expensive then buying up their DCV to an overwhelming level.

Sometimes the regular PD or ED should work against spells. Should the spell be something that is definitely real, which could even just be regular fire, the in this case their ED should be in play. But if you want to have that magical fire attack that can burn even that creature who can survive in lava, then add the AVAD Advantage so that they only get their ED that is magical in nature. Normally in 6th Edition the AVLD Advantage is not as high as it is in earlier Editions. The only thing I would state that in your game the "Does Body" +1 Advantage is not required. This would make an AVAD attack be able to actually be purchased in a heroic campaign. This would mean that the AVAD Advantage where the target can only use their magical ED against the attack, only be a +1, not a +2. In addition, should the caster want a spell that does not do BODY, they can add the -1/2 Limitation "STUN Only" which would drop the cost of the spell even more.

10 minutes ago, Ninja-Bear said:

@unclevlad fwiw, talking to my friends who are old time comic book fans (and one was a writer). Speedster like the Flash shouldn’t be hit at all. It’s the conceit of the game that they are able to be hit.

I have had plenty of speedsters who when moving most attackers need less than an 8 to hit, and in many combats they take no direct hits. The only way they are hit is either with Area Effect or Mental attacks. Problem also is that having a high DEX, SPEED, and DCV uses up a pretty good amount of points. Making it rather hard for them to also have high defenses for the campaign they are in. Plus, even in the Flash comic, he gets hit by a direct shot once in a while.

And sometimes even in comics you get that marksman who is so good, he can hit a bullet with a bullet!

3 hours ago, Scott Ruggels said:

Funny but I disagree with all the points you made at the top of the quote. The fixed initiative is such a relief compared to die roll randomness. Most combat is sort of planned or at least has objectives. Champions was a Wargame of superheroes. The chaotic randomness is a product of melee or martial arts fights, when ranged combat is more planned out, or at least rules based. A lot of this chaos and randomness seems like a desire for more of a fiction forward flavor.  My preference is not to mess with Champions RAW. 

I definitely have to agree with you. There is no reason for randomness as there are plenty of things a character, or villain, can do to keeps things interesting. Many people don't realize that just because you have a DEX of 25 you do not have to go at DEX 25. Many times it is a good idea to hold off to see what your opponents are going to do or to allow you to work with one of your team members. In addition, just because you go in Phases 3, 6, 9, & 12, it does not mean those are the only phases you are allowed to act in. You can hold your Phase 3, to phase 4 or 5. Once again this can cause opponents problems because you are not going in the same phase or will allow you to better work with one of your teammates. Heck, when I use VIPER, I definitely have the agents not acting in their regular phases, that way if there is a number of them they can be attacking the heroes in every phase, not just 4, 8, & 12.

Note: I do know this is something I have said before but I believe it is something that can be said twice as I have seen a lot of players, especially new ones, who do not realize this is available.

I have had a number of characters go from Hero to Villain, and yes they definitely need to have both a power increase with in many cases new powers coming into play. Had a regeneration character who was a little crazy in the first place go to try to infiltrate a villain institution but rolled an 18 on his acting roll. Well since he was a "Method Actor" he didn't fail, he was so good at his acting that he began to believe that he was the villain he was pretending to be. With that change he started using a lot more rather nasty gadgets and a number of mob skills. Was a problem for the heroes for quite a while.

Interesting through. One thing to always make sure is that your player's characters can work together and don't use each other's sticks. Can be hard to do sometimes.

On 2/24/2003 at 1:23 PM, JamesG said:

I've toyed with the idea of abandoning the Speed Chart in favor of each character rolling a die and if they roll their speed or under they get an action. There are two reasons this appealed to me:

1. To introduce an element of randomness to the combat sequencing
2. To give slow Speed characters a chance to occasionally have a phase in a segment a higher Speed character does not. For example, in the Speed Chart, all of Speed 3's phases are in segments that Speed 6 also has a phase.[/list=1]
   But I abandoned the plan for a number of reasons. Mainly, it added additional complication and also I saw some of the problems it could entail that Keneton has pointed out.
    
   This thread has me thinking of trying the "12 numbered cards" method. I assume most who use that system use it either like:
   • (GM turns over card #4) OK, everybody with a Speed 4 or less goes this segment.
     or
   • (GM turns over card #4) OK, everybody with a phase in segment 4 goes.

 

Both ways fix my issue 1, but not issue 2 (in fact the first way makes issue one worse, as low Speed characters will never have a phase when higher Speeds don't, barring prior aborts by the high Speed char).

 

One solution I thought of is creating a custom set of 12 cards that say which Speeds go when that card is turned. And then I can set up the cards so that low speeds (other than Speed 1) have at least one card where other "low" Speeds don't go. For example Speed 2 would appear on two cards, the "Everybody goes" card and a card with Speed 2, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11 and 12. That way on one of Speed 2's two segments, no other Speed of 6 or lower would be going.

 

Has anyone experimented with a system like this? I'm not even sure the additional complexity would be worth it.

I would definitely have to say that having people role as to if they get to go or not is a bad idea. You will end up with a lot of pissed off player, not necessarily pissed off at you directly, but definitely at the dice which will then move to the GM. Imagine if you are playing that slow brick who has a 4 speed and never gets to go the entire session because he can't seem to roll low on any dice.

How about Liberace Reborn. He is a dancing martial artist who can attack with sonic powers that can both shatter stone or control your mind.

Yes, but Armor Piercing attacks don't just have to be Killing Attack. Normal attacks can be Armor Piercing as well, which still reduced the target's defenses for both STUN and BODY. Penetrating attacks only do a bonus of BODY for Killing Attacks and only a bonus of STUN for Normal Attacks.

And yes, I have had plenty of character ignore Penetrating attacks feeling that they were not that much of a problem. In fact, most players I have had in any of my games have felt that Armor Piercing was more of a threat then Penetrating, yourself included.

Now from what it sounds like, the GM never let the players know what they might be up against. But, did the characters attempt to find out what was their before they went in. If they never had any opportunity to check to see what exactly they were up against, then yes, the GM needs to be kicked in the butt. But if the GM did give them opportunity to check to see what they were up against before they made their move(s) and they never made the attempt, or even ignoring them, then going in with Powers Blazing would be the players' fault. If you are going against an extremely nasty foe that is much higher than you point amount there are things you can do to greatly increase your chances of survival but you have to know what is happening and take the time to make a plan for it.

One thing that everyone should be aware of is that you do not have to go in the phases listed by your speed. If you are a 3 speed and are set to go in 4, 8, & 12 you can always hold your action. So when phase 4 comes you can wait and go in 5 instead, or 6, or 7. I have found this to be great against heroes fighting large number of slower targets. By switching the phases they act in, they can be attacking the characters in EVERY SINGLE PHASE, not just in 4, 8, & 12. This means that the characters have to pay attention to every phase, not just the three their enemies go based on the Speed Chart.

What you have above does not in any way state that Armor Piercing should be less expensive than Penetrating. Plus you are also not counting the STUN damage taken by the attack in which Armor Piercing assists the attack overwhelmingly more than Penetrating. Based on the entire picture they should cost the same, both should be a 1/2 Advantage. Add that to the fact that it normally has been standard to have attacks cost more than defenses, then it definitely can be said that you should not have Armor Piercing be the same advantage as Hardened.

I don't think that Penetrating should be reduced to a 1/4 Advantage, I think that Armor Piercing should be increased as a 1/2 Advantage. They may be different in what they can do and when they are at the most advantageous, but they still have about the same value. I don't see Armor Piercing being only half as valuable as Penetrating.

15 minutes ago, LoneWolf said:

One reason is that with an AP attack you can still bounce the damage even without hardened defenses.  A PEN attack on the other hand always gets some damage through.   A 1d6 AP RKA will still do no BODY 5/6 of the time vs DEF 9.  A 1d6 PEN RKA will do at least 1 point of BODY 5/6 of the time vs a DEF 30.  

Yes, but normally Hero will set it up so that the defense is less than the offense, but now they have both hardened and Armor Piercing as the same advantage. 

4 hours ago, pawsplay said:

 

I'm not saying it's advantageous. Rather that it's ability to absolutely overcome defenses is appealing to some people when trying to model certain highly powerful attacks, and the fact it is not always advantageous causes the resulting construction to look and  play weird. It's like, hi, I'm wearing a spacesuit, so I'm less vulnerable to adamantium claws.

Okay, so it looks like we are all on the same page. My big thing is that I don't believe that Penetrating should be a higher advantage than Armor Piercing. I think that both should be 1/2. I am not sure why they would put Armor Piercing at 1/4 while Penetrating is still 1/2. 

2 hours ago, LoneWolf said:

Why do we need to eliminate either of them?  There is nothing wrong with having more options, both advantages have their place.  The whole point of the Hero System is that you can build any power you want.  Some attacks are better built as AP others may work better as PEN. 

 

 

As to the cost difference AP attacks are more useful on higher dice attacks, where PEN works well on low dice attacks. Putting AP on a low dice attack gives you less bang for the buck then PEN as the target with decent DEF can still often bounce the attack.  PEN on the other hand becomes less effective at higher dice.   

You definitely have this one right on.